This sort of makes sense if you assume Spain would never have allowed British people to move there without the EU, and will stop any further movement if Britain does leave the EU. I don't know if that's the case though, I suppose no one can know at the moment. If the couple concerned want both the UK and Spain to leave the EU then that would be quite valid I'd have thought, whether you share those opinions or not.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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I liked today's Lammy interview on balance, and found his conviction and lack of fence-sitting quite refreshing.
The issue is that it becomes a question of wealth. If you're incredibly wealthy, there will always be opportunities to live elsewhere relatively easily. What the EU has done is allowed a lot of people who would not otherwise have been able to to live and work in Europe to do so, and Spain in particular has become an attractive destination for retirees specifically because the cost of living is relatively cheap and because your healthcare is taken of by reciprocal agreements amongst EU countries.
If these people are well off enough that they'd be immune to the consequences of leaving the EU then they're mean spirited people who would deny the lifestyle they have chosen to others, and if they are not then they're idiots. It's quite possible that they are both.
Overall he was great and I think he's clearly a good MP but that clip I posted will overshadow the rest of the interview. There's lots of ways of saying how dangerous the ERG are and the sort of far right groups they are getting close to without doing the whole calling them Nazi-shtick.
Plus I didn't like Lammy saying the BBC shouldn't be given them a platform because they are on the far right. As Marr said the ERG are elected politicians and the BBC is state tv, of course they should be given a platform. If all it takes for the BBC to no platform politicians because they are on the ''extreme'' side of politics then the Labour Party is fecked.
There is a wider point to be made here though about when the BBC give airtime to clowns like Robinson. And I'd say it's probably about the amount of traction they're getting - some MP's like Rees-Mogg are basically opinionated backbenchers, their voices should be heard but they shouldn't necessarily be on all the time, and then you've got the likes of Farage appearing on QT all the time.
Yes, the EU has done that, but this couple are being criticised specifically for their Spanish connection, and in regard to that you're still assuming Brits won't be able to go and live in Spain if we leave the EU, whether wealthy or not. You could be right of course, or wrong. I agree they could be mean-spirited or idiots however, or both, but also they could be neither.
I agree with you there, I'm no ERG fan but it is wrong to call them Nazis or no-platform them.
Agree but Lammy said - 'I don't care how elected they are''. He has to frame it a millions times better.
Agreed again, sadly belief in democracy seems to be on the wane all round, it's almost becoming old-fashioned to state your support for it.
Better way to phrase it would probably be to just highlight that they've got a habit of cosying up with the far-right when it suits them and that some have far-right tendencies. Nazi comparisons for obvious reasons tend to never go down well. Unless it's some KKK psycho who embraces the tag.
Really does feel like that at times. Although people aren't helping the situation in fairness.
I'm not assuming Brits won't be able to live in Spain, in fact I've outright said the opposite.
What I have said though is that as things stand leaving the EU will make living in Spain become more expensive and that expense will be prohibitive for a large portion of British immigrants in Spain.
And let's be clear with what these people want. They travelled hours to attend Farage's Brexit event. They don't just support Brexit; they want a rock-hard no-deal Brexit. There are no assumptions involved about what that would entail for Brits in Spain who rely on agreements that the EU has facilitated.
They either know they will be fine in that situation, because they're incredibly wealthy, or they don't know what it would entail for their livelihood.
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Democracy is merely the icing on the cake for a society. That many people have come to think of it as the cake itself is quite revealing to me.
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Well your main assumption is that the UK and Spain won't agree to a reciprocal health care arrangement paid for by the country of origin, similar to the one we have now with EHIC. Neither of us know whether they will or not, though I accept it won't happen overnight. In general though you seem to think Spain will no longer welcome British immigrants, which again is no more than assumption.
I think what Lammy was trying to get at is that there is a transitional phase in politics - in Germany, where it gradually become more and more acceptable to air extreme right views. I doubt he was trying to say we have reached peak Nazi status in the UK but that we are on the fringes of doing so.
We have seen in the US which for me is practically an openly racist state in wolf's clothing and in the UK we have a nation now where you can call muslim women letterboxes and be one of the favourites to become Prime Minister.
I don't think people realise how far this country has shifted to the right and extremist views are becoming normalised. That is what Lammy is getting at, we have let extremism in through the backdoor and it is only going to get worse unless people rise up and confront it. I wholly agree with him.
Many probably don't care because they wouldn't afford living abroad in the first place. Others think that they will still be given red carpet treatment simply because they are British. The they need us more then we need them mentality is strong among brexiteers
In reality no foreign country like adopting elderly people. Their health is failing and their money reserves is usually shrinking. Thus if FOM ends then most countries will make sure only the very rich can move to Europe
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Is part of that not a case of you reap what you sow?
So it's now the second post in a row that I've had to start by trying to stop you putting words in my mouth. I have repeatedly said what I mean, and you have repeatedly decided to read that and decide it says something entirely different. As I have said repeatedly, there will always be opportunities for the wealthy to move and live abroad. Freedom of Movement has allowed those opportunities to be opened up to people to whom those opportunities are not available outside of the EU. UK citizens in the event of a no-deal Brexit would be treated like citizens of any other third country in Spain; you can google why that is a fairly substantial change.
And yes, but it relies on the UK government being competent. I would suggest the fact that they are joining a protest party as a result of the Governments policy suggests they do not think they are, and there's very little indication in any of the UK govs technical notices on No Deal to suggest that it's a priority area for them. I'm not sure wanting to find out how long Spain will continue to cover healthcare for British expats without the UK government reciprocating is particularly wise.
Care to elaborate?
About the healthcare in Spain, last month a decree law was published, so the service will be "in the same terms and under the same conditions" as before the Brexit.
In addition, the Canary Islands, among other communities, are considering different measures to avoid losing tourists.
In addition, the Canary Islands, among other communities, are considering different measures to avoid losing tourists.
Yep, but it's pretty clear that they expect the British government to return the favour:
"Logically, this is unilateral, but two agreed unilateral [deals] make for a bilateral. Naturally, we’re in contact with the British government and hope that they will take similar measures themselves. It’s to avoid an international treaty, which would be far more rigid and complicated.”
Temporary though I think?
But again he has to phase it a million times better. Still any comparison with the Nazis is just a bit silly,
- The ERG don't actually have a plan and even if they did they can't get it through parliament.
- The brexit vote is almost completely a older vote. These people can barely organise a march let alone a violent takeover of the government.
- Theres not pro brexit far right youth movement.
- I've posted about this before but the tories are in deep trouble in the long term.
- 2 odd million people march against Brexit where as the Pro Brexit march didn't even pass the half a million mark
- Britain has the biggest centre left party in Europe which is polling in first.
- Possible most important, people like the ERG and the Brexit is based on empire nostalgia and nationalist Thatcherism.
My worry with very Pro Remain people like Lammy is they are turing Brexit into a god awful culture war.
I'd heard the suggestion, I didn't know about any decree though, so thanks. I'm not sure everyone realises that the costs of health care are claimed back from the originating country, I suspect that causes some confusion.
I imagine that they will find some permanent agreement, and even if they do not find it, Tourism is 12% of GNP.
Spain can not afford to lose or bother the british tourist, which is the most important.
I think, only a guess that the priority of Spain was to make clear that Gibraltar is a colony.
No problem.
If what you say is true, that the country has shifted to the right and extremist views are becoming normalised, then as far as that derives from issues like immigration, multiculturalism etc, is it not the case that those who expressed legitimate concerns about such things should have been listened to more, instead of being denounced as bigots/xenophobes/racists or just ignored? It's always easy to be wise after the event I suppose but that was certainly my impression whenever such things were discussed in the media.
We're not really talking about tourism though, but people who settle in Spain permanently. I imagine the biggest issue there would be the effect of the weakening pound, and not sure what could really be done to mitigate against it?
I believe around 25% of tourists to Spain are from the UK
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Spain
So perhaps 3%of GNP
How many Brits would be put off by having to take out health insurance... I'd guess not that many as they will have to take out the same healthcare wherever they go and most won't want to stay in the UK for holidays.
At worst perhaps 1% impact to GNP
Spanish economy growing at 2% so even if they don't figure a deal out it's hardly likley to be too impactful even presuming less Brits and more free rooms wouldn't just result in some cheaper rooms sold to other nationalities
Probably they will find a deal but it's not critical for spain they do
Official figures are 300,000 UK citizens resident in Spain however it's believed it could be as many as 1m.
Many pensioners are having to choose in the UK between eating and heating during the Winter months. In Spain it doesn't have to be a choice, however even with a reciprocal Healthcare agreement any rise in costs may influence their ability to stay. For instance taking official residence could come at an additional cost as well as the strength of the Euro.
It's just not predictable is it. If the UK's economy tanks as badly as some of us expect with Brexit then the pound will fall making coming 'home' more attractive than stopping away, but it's also likely either taxes would rise or inflation let go due to borrowing, or both, which an emigrant might be glad to escape.
The rub is that UK citizens who currently haven't had any need to take residency in Spain will almost certainly have to do so, to take advantage of any reciprocal agreements on healthcare. That's a big decision to make, as it completely alters your rights and entitlements in the UK. You can't be resident in two countries.
If you're not a UK resident (regardless of your citizenship) you can't (for instance) easily keep a car at your UK address to use when you're back "home", because UK motor insurance requires you to be a UK resident. We're dealing with all of this in Italy at the moment, so we're very aware of the knock-on consequences of changing your country of residence.
If you're not a UK resident (regardless of your citizenship) you can't (for instance) easily keep a car at your UK address to use when you're back "home", because UK motor insurance requires you to be a UK resident. We're dealing with all of this in Italy at the moment, so we're very aware of the knock-on consequences of changing your country of residence.
Well no, the Pound isn't predictable but Italy was one of the first to state their support for UK citizens however that comes at a cost being officially resident. If Spain followed that sort of model I don't think I'd phrase it as glad to return given they'll have to face sacrifices at home in the UK to survive the Winter as well as inflation. No, not grateful in any way.
I dont know. I do not think it's that simple. I worked in cities that lived completely from English tourism. If the English do not come, they have to close.
The Germans are not going to go simply by lowering the price. Last year they were 19 million!. They are the best because they are the most loyal.
A person comes to live after having visited the country countless times and their main motivation is security and trust.
Establishing obstacles to residents creates insecurity. I personally would give them all kinds of facilities.
I meant it's hard to predict which effect would be the greater, the pound, the taxes, or the inflation, all pulling in different directions. I should have added it depends on the each individual's level and source of income of course. Not sure what the wagging finger's for I'm afraid.Well no, the Pound isn't predictable but Italy was one of the first to state their support for UK citizens however that comes at a cost being officially resident. If Spain followed that sort of model I don't think I'd phrase it as glad to return given they'll have to face sacrifices at home in the UK to survive the Winter as well as inflation. No, not grateful in any way.
You said 'an emigrant might be glad to escape'. I'm not sure you are that aware of pensioners reasons and needs for being in Spain is all.Yes, glad to escape higher taxes and inflation in the event of Brexit. You made me read it again to see what I'd said!
I'm confident most emigrants go to Spain to expand their knowledge of another culture and learn a new language. That and the weather and cheap booze.
What sort of age bracket are you, if you don't mind me asking?Yes, glad to escape higher taxes and inflation in the event of Brexit. You made me read it again to see what I'd said!
I'm confident most emigrants go to Spain to expand their knowledge of another culture and learn a new language. That and the weather and cheap booze.
Under 25? 40? 55?
One of the funniest recent James O'brien brexit calls