It's a good reason not to make such a massive change based on what they voted on though. Unrealistic unfortunately, but a good reason.
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It's a good reason not to make such a massive change based on what they voted on though. Unrealistic unfortunately, but a good reason.
We spent months before the referendum laying out the dangers, and got ‘Project Fear’ thrown in our faces. feck these idiots.
To me, they are epitomised by the young woman I met at a gym just before the referendum, who kept saying "we have to leave because Turkey will be joining soon." I said they wouldn't because there were a lot of requirements Turkey wasn't going to meet, she said everyone was talking about it on Facebook and Muslamic ray-guns and so on.
I knew she hadn't the faintest idea what she was talking about, and ironically Turkey is now even further away from ever joining the EU.
She is just so condescending isn't she. An insult to peoples intelligence. Yet again she is trying to shift the blame but anyone who knows anything about current events knows full well that it is all down to her.
Her and her total mismanagement of the whole leaving the EU process.
Not often I have sympathy for the EU negotiators but if this is anything to go by, what must they think of the UK.
Maybe I'm putting it across badly but my point isn't about reaching out to those who voted leave but to try and understand what lead up the point where 17 odd million people believed shite and voted for shite.
The warnings before the referendum - basically a liberal government that put in place austerity, a financial sector who destroyed the economy and faced no jail time, a press who were caught hacking the phones of people who had been murder and decades of anti EU shite had some effect on why people didn't listen to the Remain side ?
FFS. That was so hilarious that I have a hard time believing that he wasn’t doing that on purpose. Surely someone being serious doesn’t speak like that, or try to make those points.
THE IRAQI LAW!
In my view this whole situation goes way beyond the campaign, which was undoubtedly full of lies.
We had become used to and possibly conditioned to blame the EU for everything.
Nobody really stood up for the EU and its benefits.
It was a steady build up over many years and eventually became the norm. Nobody really challenged it and the big bad EU became the narrative.
The remain campaign was indescribably awful whereas the leave campaign was simply playing to people's deep seated misconceptions.
I guarantee a large amount of leavers had no interest in or clue about the EU until it became a chance to stick it the normal people like them who aren't bitter idiots/don't like war/aren't nationalists.
This is absolutely right. The right-wing tabloids love running those stupid stories about the EU and the shape of bananas, the EU and British chocolate, the EU and cheese varieties etc etc. These things are very familiar to people and it's easy to get folk worked-up over a bit of fake or inaccurate news.
It works, too. Even now (fifteen years later) I look at Cadbury's chocolate and think "that's called family milk chocolate, according to the EU".
No, it's not a good enough response. A good response is repeatedly calling them stupid whilst hitting them in the face with a shovel.
And the scary thing is drooling halfwits like this are allowed a vote.
Well said.
I used to look at a Cadbury chocolate and want one.
Since they stopped making them in the UK I look at one and think 'get stuffed'.
It doesn't taste the same to me personally. Mars bars got smaller but the taste is still there at least.
Indeed. A central problem within the Remain campaign was that, in Cameron, it was essentially being led by someone who only half-heartedly believed in the EU at best, and whose enthusiasm for remaining was hard to believe considering he'd become one of its most prominent critics while in power.
But the issues extend beyond people like him. Even New Labour, while unabashedly pro-EU, were more than happy to scapegoat immigrants when necessary. Concerns of those who were against the EU weren't really challenged and a desire to control immigration to a greater extent became the norm, but at the same time none of the main parties (aside from UKIP) ever really intended to reduce immigration.
Any treaties or deals with the EU were always framed in terms of what we weren't having to give away, as opposed to what we were gaining. By default further cooperation with the EU was seen as a bad thing.
I'd say that's largely changed in the aftermath of the referendum though. More people are now actually taking the time to consider how they feel about the EU, which I'd say has resulted in a rise of people who identity as European, even if that's manifested itself in the fairly cringe-inducing PV types. Pro-EU people in the country have now correctly identified that being embarrassed about what you believe in to placate your opponents isn't exactly a particularly capable way of advancing your cause.
Referring to (some) leavers as idiots does not mean that you don't understand what caused them to vote the way they did. Or that you don't care about some of those issues. By this point after going over the reasons so many times, and attempting to address them to no avail, I'm personally not going to stop anybody who feels like calling them out. Or second guess myself when I feel like doing it.
Making them feel uncomfortable by pointing out misconceptions, ignorance or stupidity is as likely to entrench them as letting them just get on with it without challenging them. Most if not all of them have lost the ability to self examine, no matter what approach you take or who you are... Let's face it.
Just think about the arguement, don't upset them as it will only make them double down.... Are they not grown people that should be held accountable for their actions, are we to carry on tip toeing around these individuals in the hope that they come to their sense (even though as time goes but, none of us see this happening). Don't they respect people who tell it like it is?
Posters can keep pointing this out to people who've heard it multiple times, in this thread of all places. But that ship has sailed for quite a few people....
Making them feel uncomfortable by pointing out misconceptions, ignorance or stupidity is as likely to entrench them as letting them just get on with it without challenging them. Most if not all of them have lost the ability to self examine, no matter what approach you take or who you are... Let's face it.
Just think about the arguement, don't upset them as it will only make them double down.... Are they not grown people that should be held accountable for their actions, are we to carry on tip toeing around these individuals in the hope that they come to their sense (even though as time goes but, none of us see this happening). Don't they respect people who tell it like it is?
Posters can keep pointing this out to people who've heard it multiple times, in this thread of all places. But that ship has sailed for quite a few people....
A well thought out summary.
I have to say that I find it difficult to believe the difference between some of the very sensible posts compared to the total rubbish spoken by a number of so called politicians.
They should be ashamed of themselves, as I routinely tell my MP.
A good read from a non-deluded leave voter
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...ow-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...ow-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/
I dunno, a lot of what he's saying is fair and reasonable, but a lot of the issues we're now facing were well-established at the time of the referendum and should have been obvious to anyone who did some stringent research. I get the impression we'll increasingly see more and more Leave voices coming out and disavowing themselves from the cause in a desperate attempt to spare themselves of any intellectual embarrassment. Even though the flaws underlying the whole process have now been evident for a considerable period of time.
Still. Better to come around late than to double down....
That's true, of course, and it does serve as a somewhat reasonable indicator that a significant number of Brexiteers aren't absolutists who want to burn the country down to the ground, but I'm wary we'll start to see the media fawning over such types who've come to their senses. No doubt Chuka and his buddies will be praising their immense bravery before long.
Agreed, point well made.
I think there is one point to add, though. There are some people who don't care about those issues, and don't want to understand what caused them to vote that way. They just want to call them idiots. A few people in this thread have said as much. We're all entitled to do that, but we should acknowledge it's just self-serving, our own way of coping with a shit situation. When that venting gets masked as some kind of attempt to further a political goal - in this case to reverse Brexit, or stop people doing stupid shit like Brexit - then it only works against that goal, as it's either misguided or untrue.
It's only a minority of people that do this, but they're the ones that create the perception that some Remainers do it - and then it gets weaponised politically so the other side start to believe that's just what Remainers do. Which doesn't help anyone.
Doesn't he actually say Muslamic rape gangs? Still a complete and utter arsehole, but I thought that's what I heard through his drivel.
Yeah, good read. Refreshing, too. Makes you wonder what proportion of Brexiteers are just too abashed to do admit to having changed their minds.
I keep hearing about some ''risk' of not leaving the EU at all. FFS! The status quo is the least risky option of all.
The step into the unknown of Brexit is a massive risk to which we have no idea of the consequences, except that it is generally agreed that it will be detrimental.
The step into the unknown of Brexit is a massive risk to which we have no idea of the consequences, except that it is generally agreed that it will be detrimental.
Not a bad read but does include an old and outdated idea that Britain has had no control over immigration due to the EU (references May as Home Sec wanting to 'do something about it but couldn't'). That's just bollocks - it's simply not in their interest to stop/manage immigration.
Muslamic ray guns, I think you'll find.
The police in my town have posted on their Facebook page to say they've summoned a guy to court for displaying a sign in his window. It turns out the sign says "feck the EU". Every single comment is anti-police and anti-EU, overwhelmingly so. It's painful because I feel like there are too many fires to fight even if I wanted to. Everyone is lauding this guy as a hero but he has teeth like a row of bombed houses and is a complete clown. Everyone moaning about tax payers money and this is what the police doing when none of them pay any fecking tax. Honestly, at the point of despair. Every single one of them are thick as mince.
Can you really be taken to court for a sign that says feck the EU when the speaker of the house drives a car (his wife's) with a sticker saying bollocks to brexit?
Seems strange
He did but because of his accent and poor diction it sounded a bit like ray guns and became the joke.
Yeah deffo. Seen a lot of excuses being made from leave voters. Someone in my own family said they think they're sabotaging it purposely because they never wanted to leave. My reply was that it's just a mess and we could see that it would be a mess before we voted because there was never any plan. I literally told them this and that they're being lied to before they voted but they still act like it's something they didn't expect. Up until recently they'd occasionally drop some random positive story or quip about leaving, nicely ignoring the ever growing trainwreck and always ignoring how those who are going to be out of pocket if we leave (and already are) are us.
Everyone's talking about it in real life, everyone is talking about it on the internet, and so so many of them look incredibly stupid, yet we're asked how we know what kind of people had a massive influence on this result.
It looks that way, although they say it's after repeated polite requests to take it down. The interesting part is that the individual in question commented on the post from the police which instantly got huge attraction and his post was then deleted. Only his, though. Proof of which has popped up elsewhere on local pages and now everyone's getting whipped up against the Police and the EU.
No, I can’t agree that leaving the EU isn’t a solution to that problem because the “problem” has two parts: both EU and Non-EU immigration. Control only one and you aren’t controlling both.
As regards Non-EU immigration post-Brexit, the Government seem to be broadly aligned to my own thinking, which is to get the net figure down. They want it down to around 100k. Ideally, I’d like net migration to be lower than that but hey-ho.
Regarding how they will do this, well, we are lacking on the finer details at the moment:
“The Government is proposing a single, unified immigration system to apply to everyone who wants to come to the UK after Brexit. The system will be based on the current immigration rules for non-EU nationals, with many changes.”
https://commonslibrary.parliament.u...the-immigration-bill-an-end-to-free-movement/
There was already a court case that decided that the word Bollocks is not obsene, whereas feck obviously is. https://www.bollockstobrexit.com/censoring-the-bollocks/
They've been saying this since 2010 though but they have no actual plans to do anything about it because demonising immigrants wins them votes.
Yes they're saying the things that they're expected to say while doing the opposite. We can agree to disagree on whether their actions betray their words, because that's beside the point.
If the British government wanted to reduce immigration levels by more than half, they could have. The EU didn't stop them from doing so. They had that power pre-Brexit. True or false?
Yes I know they have been saying XYZ for a while, but the government aren’t totally stupid, even though it seems so at the moment. They know that 2016 referendum was also something of a public opinion poll on immigration. So, post Brexit, I’d expect these “changes” to have some effect. If not, everybody is free to change vote accordingly next time out aren’t they?
Yeah PRE-Brexit. Sure. Maybe they didn't expect the referendum result, therefore underestimating depth of feeling pre-Brexit. They know now.
Does the upheaval, the effects on the economy and people's lives, etc. not factor into your thinking at all? Doesn't seem so...
Environment & sustainability > economic growth.