Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Brwned]

@Mockney, just watched the video, very interesting. Will read up on the sources later. In the same way I think the speculation about the population bomb greatly exaggerated our own capacity for predicting the future, I'm very sceptical that we're similarly able to predict the future of the entire planet in that one simple line chart of gradually slowing population growth in those final two phases. The patterns we perceived in the past are not foolproof indicators of the future. However I agree it is compelling.

If their predictions do turn out to be broadly true then I think it further underlines the issue with our current model of economic prosperity based on continuous population growth, and further undermines the short-term approaches we're taking to deal with the problem of an ageing society. I'm actually in the process of (read: failing miserably, but enjoying) writing a book about that particular issue, hence my focus on it in here within the context of overpopulation, immigration etc. If you come across similarly interesting stuff, I'd be grateful if you could throw some my way!

 

[Penna]

Yup. My parents own a house in Spain and spend a good few months of the year over there, and yet my dad voted leave. I have had some fairly heated arguments with him on the topic. He claims that it was a matter of sovereignty, and that he didnt like the unelected EU officials making laws. He also seems to think that every other leave voter thought the same as him, and that immigration was never one of the major reasons.

Its particularly odd because for the most part he is a pretty intelligent bloke.

I find it hard to feel sympathy for anyone who's enjoyed the benefits of free movement, but doesn't want other people to have it. Are your parents planning to keep their house after Brexit? They won't be able to stay for months at a time as Brits.

I reckon a lot of people will be selling up, and property prices will fall. It's very hard to sell anything in Italy, the market has been completely stagnant for years - and our house is very old, the sort of property Italians don't want. It's much easier to stay here and sell up in England.

 

[Buster15]

You really should have read the previous few posts.

Just have. And...

 

[sun_tzu]

I find it hard to feel sympathy for anyone who's enjoyed the benefits of free movement, but doesn't want other people to have it. Are your parents planning to keep their house after Brexit? They won't be able to stay for months at a time as Brits.

I reckon a lot of people will be selling up, and property prices will fall. It's very hard to sell anything in Italy, the market has been completely stagnant for years - and our house is very old, the sort of property Italians don't want. It's much easier to stay here and sell up in England.

90 day visa free travel I think... Worst case scenario a boarder run to gibralta for a cup of coffee and back again... I did this for a couple of years in Thailand and you just learn to build it into your schedule.

That said the non lucrative (aka wealth visas) are pretty easy to obtain in Spain compared to some other places so @Walrus folks may well be able to attain one of those?

I have a property I rent out on Spain so I have a more than passing interest in this but so far I've not really encountered anybody with any concerns other than regarding the e111

 

[Buster15]

Putting it another way.
What are the odds of May and Corbyn agreeing to something sensible and then parliament agreeing to it and then the EU agreeing to it?

Probably as close to zero as makes no difference.
It is becoming clear that rather than TM genuinely trying to find a common approach with Labour, she has reverted to type and has no intention of charge or comprise.
More like just going through the motions so as to be able to blame Labour and Corbyn in particular.

Even her most loyal followers concede that she is totally inflexible.
That is why the negotiations with the EU have been such a problem.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

90 day visa free travel I think... Worst case scenario a boarder run to gibralta for a cup of coffee and back again... I did this for a couple of years in Thailand and you just learn to build it into your schedule.

That said the non lucrative (aka wealth visas) are pretty easy to obtain in Spain compared to some other places so your folks may well be able to attain one of those?

I have a property I rent out on Spain so I have a more than passing interest in this but so far I've not really encountered anybody with any concerns other than regarding the e111

It's 90 days per 180 days proposed which means the cup of coffee would have to last 3 months.

The problems for UK citizens will be those relying on their UK pensions which if the pound collapses yet again will be worth very little plus relying on reciprocal health arrangements which will no longer apply.
I know plenty of OAP's who have already, in the process of or seriously thinking about returning and they all were remainers.
It's anecdotal but surely not unusual and I live in a pretty sparsely populated area.

 

[Tarrou]

Just have. And...

maybe you could respond to mine then

 

[711]

Probably as close to zero as makes no difference.
It is becoming clear that rather than TM genuinely trying to find a common approach with Labour, she has reverted to type and has no intention of charge or comprise.
More like just going through the motions so as to be able to blame Labour and Corbyn in particular.

Even her most loyal followers concede that she is totally inflexible.
That is why the negotiations with the EU have been such a problem.

She's had one consistent plan that hasn't changed for a long time, she gives the impression of attempting to address each available alternative whilst in reality closing them off as unachievable, until a final vote before parliament between her deal or no deal the next day. Yeah, I know she's said 'parliament has voted against no deal' but if she ensures nothing else is agreed in the meantime then that will be the choice, her deal or no deal. It's moving the deadlines that's her problem, but that will end eventually.

 

[Cheesy]

Depends where you look. I told you a year ago that Norway don’t take 75% of EU rules and provided you with sources. You decided to ignore that and talk to Paul the wolf about how awful it would be to fill out a 6 line form to visit Europe. You are the problem

I recall that discussion a while back but admittedly don't recall you providing me with sources - it's a busy thread so I've missed those I apologise.

Nevertheless, if we're going to talk about Norway, there's surely got to be a recognition that they're a different case to us? They've never been in the EU, so they haven't adopted those rules in the first place. We'd be abandoning them in your hypothetical scenario...but which key rules are we abandoning? Is there actually any benefit in doing so, or are we just wasting our time? Does it take into account that Norway's economy is incredibly different from ours, and that they're a country of a different size?

Not to mention that your own preference for a Norway-style approach completely ignores that you aren't necessarily of a majority opinion when it comes to Brexit - plenty just want to burn the whole system to the ground and will accept nothing less than a hard Brexit which cuts immigration dramatically. The Norway solution doesn't necessarily solve the customs issue with Northern Ireland, and it's an approach that's been ruled out on plenty of occasions. While we gain control over certain sectors that are under EU remit right now, we're still ultimately operating under the four main freedoms, which is what Brexiteers don't like.

If you want Remainers to argue in good faith then you need to accept not all Brexiteers are pursuing logical, coherent solutions to the whole thing, and you need to accept the initial arguments in 2016 were presented in incredibly bad faith to the point where had it been a legally binding referendum, it would've been declared invalid due to legal problems.

 

[Penna]

It's 90 days per 180 days proposed which means the cup of coffee would have to last 3 months.

The problems for UK citizens will be those relying on their UK pensions which if the pound collapses yet again will be worth very little plus relying on reciprocal health arrangements which will no longer apply.
I know plenty of OAP's who have already, in the process of or seriously thinking about returning and they all were remainers.
It's anecdotal but surely not unusual and I live in a pretty sparsely populated area.

Yes, a lot of the British winter travellers to the warm parts of Europe have low incomes. They've been able to survive by living in mobile homes or even caravans, they get their pensions and free healthcare plus Brit-style cheap food in the resorts. It's less expensive to live abroad, where you don't need to have the heating on for months at a time.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Just have. And...

And I have no issues with freedom of movement but these people who are taking full advantage of it, do, obviously, hence: wankers.

 

[VeevaVee]

The current thing with Brexiters is trying to perform some kind of group protest, but they're all coming up with different stuff. There's a group on Facebook sharing it all and I'm seeing so many similaraties with the Flat Earth group, especially in terms of how stupid they come across.

We shouldn't call them idiots though because it ignores their real concerns about the EU that they've always had.

 

[Buster15]

And I have no issues with freedom of movement but these people who are taking full advantage of it, do, obviously, hence: wankers.

OK I can understand that; only if you have proof that 'these people' are against such freedom of movement.
I am not saying that they don't but my point is that people are making sweeping generalisations which are not always correct.

 

[Massive Spanner]

OK I can understand that; only if you have proof that 'these people' are against such freedom of movement.
I am not saying that they don't but my point is that people are making sweeping generalisations which are not always correct.

Well take their ages and the ratio of people who voted to leave their age and you get the gist. Obviously not all of them did but a lot of them did.

 

[Buster15]

Yes, a lot of the British winter travellers to the warm parts of Europe have low incomes. They've been able to survive by living in mobile homes or even caravans, they get their pensions and free healthcare plus Brit-style cheap food in the resorts. It's less expensive to live abroad, where you don't need to have the heating on for months at a time.

And probably much better for their health.
Many hotels in Benidorm for example do special rates for longer bookings in the winter to keep their hotels open.
So it can work both ways can't it.

 

[Carolina Red]

Well how do you possibly predict impending Brexit chaos based on nothing ?

You don’t need history to know that cutting your nose off isn’t good for your face.

 

[RedChip]

Just posting this here, for no particular reason:

https://www.iflscience.com/brain/no-youre-not-entitled-your-opinion/

Good one. Hope @Stanley Road reads it.

 

[Carolina Red]

The current thing with Brexiters is trying to perform some kind of group protest, but they're all coming up with different stuff. There's a group on Facebook sharing it all and I'm seeing so many similaraties with the Flat Earth group, especially in terms of how stupid they come across.

We shouldn't call them idiots though because it ignores their real concerns about the EU that they've always had.

“Soon we will be run by a Nazi plan in a Communist EU”

Hmm...

 

[VeevaVee]

“Soon we will be run by a Nazi plan in a Communist EU”

Hmm...

natzi*

 

[Carolina Red]

natzi*

Yeah, he did Communist with just 1 m also. I just couldn’t bring myself to actually type it.

 

[Maticmaker]

May reputedly has said today that there will be no Brexit unless Labour sign up to a deal... at last, she is preparing to revoke A50 and blame Labour.
"Oh Jeremy Corbyn... Oh Jeremy Corbyn" How could you?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

'doh' Jeremy Corbyn.

 

[Cloud7]

The current thing with Brexiters is trying to perform some kind of group protest, but they're all coming up with different stuff. There's a group on Facebook sharing it all and I'm seeing so many similaraties with the Flat Earth group, especially in terms of how stupid they come across.

We shouldn't call them idiots though because it ignores their real concerns about the EU that they've always had.

Peter Hills seems quite upset. Loosing his heratige and all that. Poor guy.

 

[Damien]

 

[VeevaVee]

Peter Hills seems quite upset. Loosing his heratige and all that. Poor guy.

Contry is goin to shat

 

[Steven Seagull]

Eh? I think you've missed my point about Norway.
You need the Single Market and Customs Union for trade and for the GFA. Norway doesn't solve either and that was my point.

Was easily workable in 24 months

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Was easily workable in 24 months

What was, I'm not following you now. It will never solve the problem.

 

[Smores]

Jesus what is this Gogglebox.

 

[do.ob]

How nice of May to try and find common ground with Labour after she already negotiated a deal with the EU and after the original leave date. It's still a denial of simple realities isn't it? It took years to get to her current deal and now she wants to negotiate common ground with her opposition and re-negotiate with the EU (who already ruled out any such thing) on that basis? When there are only days left?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Que? Like talking to five year olds. Oh...

 

[Buster15]

How nice of May to try and find common ground with Labour after she already negotiated a deal with the EU and after the original leave date. It's still a denial of simple realities isn't it? It took years to get to her current deal and now she wants to negotiate common ground with her opposition and re-negotiate with the EU (who already ruled out any such thing) on that basis? When there are only days left?

Bang on.
I listened to JRM yesterday.
He was very quick to say that TM was fully to blame for the whole debacle.
Say what you like about him, ERG, DUP and Labour. In truth they are bit players. They are not in charge. Only TM.

 

[Cloud7]

Peter Hills seems quite upset. Loosing his heratige and all that. Poor guy.

Seriously though, I don’t understand the hesitation to call these people idiots. A sizeable portion of them are quite clearly idiots. You only have to read suggestions like ‘withdraw all our money from the bank’ and ‘drive slow on the highway’ to know that these people have about 5 brain cells between them. Stupidity should not be coddled.

It’s no different to calling flat earthers and sandy hook ‘truthers’ idiots. They are what they are.

 

[Tarrou]

Seriously though, I don’t understand the hesitation to call these people idiots. A sizeable portion of them are quite clearly idiots. You only have to read suggestions like ‘withdraw all our money from the bank’ and ‘drive slow on the highway’ to know that these people have about 5 brain cells between them. Stupidity should not be coddled.

It’s no different to calling flat earthers and sandy hook ‘truthers’ idiots. They are what they are.

What good does that do though?

All it serves to do is make people double down on it

 

[Minimalist]

What in the name of fcuk is that latest video from May. The Tories really don't live in the real world.

 

[Cloud7]

What good does that do though?

All it serves to do is make people double down on it

And has speaking to them reasonably and rationally made anyone consider other things?

I’m not saying that it’s going to accomplish anything, what I mean is the whole ‘they’re not idiots, don’t call them that, they all had their own reasons for doing these things, even if those reasons objectively don’t make sense’ thing doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Abizzz]

We shouldn't call them idiots though because it ignores their real concerns about the EU that they've always had.

I've lost all respect for the lot of them. To the point where if I'd get the feeling my doctor was one of them I'd seek to change doctor just because of it.

The cheek to ask for respect after the behavior brexiteers have displayed since day 1 is breath taking, they are as self aware as a rock (apologies to rocks).

 

[Sweet Square]

Seriously though, I don’t understand the hesitation to call these people idiots. A sizeable portion of them are quite clearly idiots. You only have to read suggestions like ‘withdraw all our money from the bank’ and ‘drive slow on the highway’ to know that these people have about 5 brain cells between them. Stupidity should not be coddled.

It’s no different to calling flat earthers and sandy hook ‘truthers’ idiots. They are what they are.

The lack of willingness to engage how we got here and why a large portion of the country believe this shite is as stupid and lazy as any Facebook post.

Calling people stupid isn't a good enough response, even if its true.

 

[Cloud7]

The lack of willingness to engage how we got here and why a large portion of the country believe this shite is as stupid and lazy as any Facebook post.

Calling people stupid isn't a good enough response, even if its true.

I wholly agree with you. How these things were allowed to fester and develop, and misinformation allowed to spread without people caring to appraise it is definitely something that needs to be addressed. At no point did I say that calling people stupid is a good enough response to all of this. All I said is I wouldn’t hesitate to say that a fair portion of these people are indeed stupid.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Especially worrying when you get to my age.

 

[Sweet Square]

I wholly agree with you. How these things were allowed to fester and develop, and misinformation allowed to spread without people caring to appraise it is definitely something that needs to be addressed. At no point did I say that calling people stupid is a good enough response to all of this. All I said is I wouldn’t hesitate to say that a fair portion of these people are indeed stupid.

Oh I didn't mean you in particular but the overall response in general.

There's never mention of the rather large older middle class voting base that is actually quite far to the right, that the BNP got nearly million votes in 2009, the slow death of the British empire and the nostalgia have for it, the constant years of anti immigration rhetoric and policies by New Labour, that after thatcher killed the unions that any sort of working class power, organisation or just simply trying to figure out what your interest are became almost impossible, that the British reaction to the 08 crash was to kill poor and disable people etc etc..

No what we get instead is the odd article talking about why Churchill was a bellend, some awful guardian safari vlogs interviewing old racists, why fake news is killing democracy(While giving a platform to Alastair Campbell) and 3 of the the most dragged out years of shite culture war.