Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
spiriticon said:
And risk breaking the trust of a lot of people. Nearly 37% of the country, which is quite a lot.
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That boat sailed a long time ago. Far more than 37% don't trust the government or politicians in general.

And if 37% voted for leave (albeit a long time ago when nobody on either side had a real idea of what leaving entailed) then 63% didn't.

Now that it is clear that driving off a cliff turns out not to be cushioned at the bottom by the bodies of 1000 dead unicorns I can't see how it is undemocratic to put a far more specific question to guide a significantly different demographic of voters.

Delay for a year with a joint GE and second binding referendum might break the deadlock.

Or not. Cameron should be fed alive to a pack of rabid stoats as he is ultimately to blame for this clusterfeck.
 
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spiriticon said:
Look you can say the referendum was unfair. But the people had the choice to remove the Tory party from government to put a stop to May continuing with this farce, but they soundly rejected that as well in the second GE 2017.

You can't really say that was an illegal election too?!
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That was not a referendum though on leave or remain, it was an election on more than Brexit. People will vote on party lines. The sad state of affairs is you can stick a blue or red rosette on a pig in 75% of the constituencies in a GE and they will win.
 
Ubik said:
This has very little to do with democracy
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I think it's everything to do with democracy. We're standing on a dangerous precipice where we could very easily stumble into Politics based on intentional lies. Dangling promises to people who are either too naive or too desperate to understand they're false. Spiritcon is claiming this has happened before and it's nothing new. I think he'd struggle to find any modern examples of such key campaign issues being fabricated like the NHS bullshit. Lets not forget there was an immediate uturn on that straight after the result. Its become some stupid meme now when it should be a serious issue.
 
Cloud7 said:
I would say the biggest flaw in democracy is that people can be so unaware of issues that they will literally vote against their best interests purely due to party tribalism, or a few words being tossed their way.
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This is literally why it doesn’t work, especially in today’s world.
 
TheGame said:
That was not a referendum though on leave or remain, it was an election on more than Brexit. People will vote on party lines. The sad state of affairs is you can stick a blue or red rosette on a pig in 75% of the constituencies in a GE and they will win.
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At the time Brexit was on every manifesto though. Should have all voted for Lib Dems if people wanted a revocation. The chance for change was there and people rejected it.

But yes, agree that party tribalism plays too big a part in British politics.

I've always voted on the party I think the UK needs at the point in time, never for political alliance. But I have lost so much confidence in EACH and EVERY ONE of this current lot I think if a new GE was called, I'd just stand in the ballot box and stare blankly for about 10 minutes at the ballot paper.

Horrifying.
 
BluesJr said:
This is literally why it doesn’t work, especially in today’s world.
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You’ll find no arguments from me on that mate. I lost faith in democracy since the last GE in my country.

All you have to do is shout enough about how bad the other people are, and that combined with traditional party lines is enough to win you an election. I was appalled at the platform that the current government were running on, because they literally did not lay out any kind of plans or proposals at all. Literally everything their campaign was based on was the things that didn’t go to plan for the previous government. Sure enough, this government that won the election on that basis has been the worst performing government I’ve seen in my life, and I’m not the only person who thinks this.

Democracy is a sham. We don’t have a current system that’s better yet, but that doesn’t mean I have more than the tiniest amount of faith in the votes of the masses.

I for one can’t wait for the robots to take over.
 
Cloud7 said:
You’ll find no arguments from me on that mate. I lost faith in democracy since the last GE in my country.

All you have to do is shout enough about how bad the other people are, and that combined with traditional party lines is enough to win you an election. I was appalled at the platform that the current government were running on, because they literally did not lay out any kind of plans or proposals at all. Literally everything their campaign was based on was the things that didn’t go to plan for the previous government. Sure enough, this government that won the election on that basis has been the worst performing government I’ve seen in my life, and I’m not the only person who thinks this.

Democracy is a sham. We don’t have a current system that’s better yet, but that doesn’t mean I have more than the tiniest amount of faith in the votes of the masses.

I for one can’t wait for the robots to take over.
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Slept off before the results came in. We are a disgrace. The arguments against a second vote are dying everyday and I'm not even completely sure it's the way to go.
 
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spiriticon said:
Sometimes things just have to be done to prevent setting precedents.

Today you might be happy that they are overthrowing democracy in favour of Remain.

Tomorrow it may be another issue you voted in favour of but the government just plain straight up ignored you.
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The reality is that the first referendum was so badly setup it hardly represented democracy.

1) Because no one was clear on what leave meant. The leave campaign said it would be the easiest deal ever, no downsides. That isn't true.

2) Because in order for changes to be made there should have been a requirement of CLEAR majority. At least 60%. 52% vs 48% is too close to make significant changes especially when point (1) is taken into account.

Ultimately the referendum was badly conceived by Cameron and his party, with no real plans for leaving made, or shared with the public to enable an informed vote. If people think that is democracy the we really are screwed.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
The reality is that the first referendum was so badly setup it hardly represented democracy.

1) Because no one was clear on what leave meant. The leave campaign said it would be the easiest deal ever, no downsides. That isn't true.

2) Because in order for changes to be made there should have been a requirement of CLEAR majority. At least 60%. 52% vs 48% is too close to make significant changes especially when point (1) is taken into account.

Ultimately the referendum was badly conceived by Cameron and his party, with no real plans for leaving made, or shared with the public to enable an informed vote. If people think that is democracy the we really are screwed.
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And basically was not binding what made a lot of people NOT CARE
 
What a total mess. Structurally, we’ve come to the limits of what our Parliamentary setup can handle. Worse, this might not even end with Brexit. If this realignment of voting patterns sticks around after Brexit it could be years before either party is able to get a clear majority again. Our system simply isn’t designed for that. We’ll face deadlock on countless major issues.

I’m up for radical reform of the whole thing. But that’s not in the interest of the two big parties who will do what they can to maintain the current system, which maximises their chances of success. They’ll just keep pointing fingers at the other lot.
 
EwanI Ted said:
What a total mess. Structurally, we’ve come to the limits of what our Parliamentary setup can handle. Worse, this might not even end with Brexit. If this realignment of voting patterns sticks around after Brexit it could be years before either party is able to get a clear majority again. Our system simply isn’t designed for that. We’ll face deadlock on countless major issues.

I’m up for radical reform of the whole thing. But that’s not in the interest of the two big parties who will do what they can to maintain the current system, which maximises their chances of success. They’ll just keep pointing fingers at the other lot.
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This! I think it was wrong that parties tried to whip the votes for the alternatives, clearly it was never going to give us any kind of result on that basis, this is an issue that has broken standard party politics. A GE with proportional representation voting is the only way I can see to bring any kind of belief back to parliament and stop hung/minority govts that could plague us for years
 
Can that fecker Mogg not make his own mind up? Now he says he will vote whatever way the DUP do or he will back the deal if they abstain.

He either believes it is a good/bad deal or he doesnt.

What an absolute parasite.
 
"Let's remind ourselves on what we have decided to do". "Nothing"!!!. That sums up this shower.
 
I've had enough now. Cancel Brexit and have another referendum in 10 years time if you want.
 
People still seem to be bemused and angry but yesterday's votes were a success. They show a clear route forward.

You have to remember that MPs were voting to whittle down the options so the likes of the SNP or TIG didn't vote custom union because they didn't want it as an option for Monday if avoided. The same will be true of some who didn't vote confirmatory vote. The 'aye' and 'nay' format was just that parliamentary voting format.

If we don't have a majority on Monday then we're fecked but last night results shouldn't cause panic.
 
I hope the EU won't extend past April. Us Europeans shouldn't be dragged in this UK made farce any longer
 
Infra-red said:
Perhaps she'll roll the dice on MV3 with the WA and Beckett's Confirmatory Ballot on the same ticket.

Addition of a public vote substantially alters the motion, thereby circumventing Bercow, and it (together with her promise to quit) might also be enough encouragement to get it through the House.
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ERG would throw a hissy fit and we would be back to square one.
 


Never heard of Peter Frankopan before but he's very insightful on the subject here
 
Sweet Square said:
I'm talking about the border between the north and the south ?
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We aren't the ones who voted for a change in the agreement already in place. Surely we can't keep carrying the Brits until they make their minds up or drag us into the chaos they are already in

If Ireland wants that then they might consider leaving the EU as well and keep haggling with them forever
 
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Wibble said:
That was very shit indeed.
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What about the passing of the controversial Industrial Relations Act 1971.?
I went on the 'kill the bill march' but just like the one at weekend, it did no good 'Black Jack' Donaldson QC was appointed.
The 'will of the people' has never been carried out in the UK and won't be this time... if it is it will be the first time!
 
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