“I love democracy” - Sheev Palpatine
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
- Start date
“I love democracy” - Sheev Palpatine
But her deal has already been rejected. On multiple occasions. By parliament. The very sovereign thing Brexiteers wanted to protect. If her deal can be reconsidered on several occasions until people finally submit to it, why can't the same principle be allowed to the Brexit vote itself? Crucial to Brexit (when it was voted for) was the idea that our MP's would throughout the process secure an exit which was either beneficial to the country, or which mitigated its worst excesses. They have refused to do that.
These aren't, but all you need to do is amend the government's bill. If there's a majority for it in the indicative votes process, there's almost certainly a majority then.
Now as it happens I still don't think there's a majority for it so this is moot
but point is, it doesn't matter if the government agrees with it.This is largely the problem - the only group who've consistently advocated for Europe are the SNP. Everyone else has either been spineless, placating, or isn't all that fond of the EU at all and switches up their stance on a whim.
Tbf so has everything else and Corbyn leads 3-2 on that.
True, hence why it's difficult to see cancelling Brexit now as any less respectful than any of the other options we've rejected. Same idea, if you value parliament at all. As Brexiteers claim to do...
But the two options that got the most votes today could reach a majority if everyone voted.
Apparently democracy nowadays is to lie, cheat and misinform the general public and hope you win out. Democracy is dead in this country.
As I mentioned, how you leave and in what manner can be debated and presented back to the people for the final confirmation, but you have to leave.
These aren't, but all you need to do is amend the government's bill. If there's a majority for it in the indicative votes process, there's almost certainly a majority then.
Now as it happens I still don't think there's a majority for it so this is moot
Yes that's another step, and also think there's not a majority. But don't get me wrong, if there's a way of stopping Brexit, stop it.
The public are easily fooled, they used Brexit as a protest vote but didn't realise they would hurt the most. They still don't to this day.
Well, yes, but that requires actually choosing a model with which you want to leave. Parliament is refusing to do that.
No you don't, the referedum was non binding and if it was binding, the courts would have ruled it would e illegal. Just because people voted for it, doesn't make it legal. People need to look out for the interests of the country and leaving is not in its interests. As I mentioned, an effective democracy allows people to change their minds.
Not if its horrendously detrimental to your country. You don't just kill your economy just to push forward an agenda based on lies and xenophobia.
What a complete farce.
People voting to leave whilst having no idea what we’re leaving for.....incredible.
People voting to leave whilst having no idea what we’re leaving for.....incredible.
I'm sure parliament is very popular with Brexiters at the moment. They have control but don't know what to do with it.
We have some of the most important votes in our history and a number of MPs are abstaining. That is cowardly, they need to vote one way or the other.
Sounds like you don't think a referendum should be able to trump an earlier referendum?
Well that's convenient for you.
Leaving might not be in your interests, but it may be to others living in the same country.
No problems with people changing their minds, but things should be implemented first before the next change. Otherwise it's a clear failure of parliament.
Again, not gonna comment to much about illegalities and lies. I believe there are lies and untruths in every voting campaign if we bother to dig all the shit up. Not just in the referendum, but the every single GE as well.
Perhaps she'll roll the dice on MV3 with the WA and Beckett's Confirmatory Ballot on the same ticket.
Addition of a public vote substantially alters the motion, thereby circumventing Bercow, and it (together with her promise to quit) might also be enough encouragement to get it through the House.
We're not talking about subjective lies or illegalities here - we're talking about literal ones that would've seen this process voided had it been a binding vote. You can't ignore that in a discussion of why Brexit should or shouldn't be implemented.
I think May's deal with a confirmatory referendum (with Remain as the other option on the ballot) would get through the Commons on a coalition of soft Brexiters and Remainers willing to gamble. However, I also think it would bring down the government as the ERG and DUP would probably back a vote of no confidence alongside the Opposition.
OK, fair enough. But as I recall it the Remain campaign also had irregularities.
Like I said, the stench of lies is everywhere in a campaign, which is why I don't really want to dig up newspaper articles and such at 12.15 am.
At the end of the day, the question was to leave or to remain and the people answered that very question of their own will.
I actually think in that scenario there'd be enough hardcore remainers to keep things going until a second vote.
You have to protect democracy!!!!
There are so many Star Wars quotes that fit this guy right now, it’s crazy.
“My allegiance is to the Republic! To DEMOCRACY!!”
You might think it's a joke man, and you might be happy because it's something you support.
But you won't agree with the government on every issue ever. One day when they do find a way to overturn a majority vote that you support, you may not be so condescending.
So in a referendum tainted by cheating on a large scale by the Leave campaign, you think it's best to follow the referendum to protect democracy? Banks was caught trying to raise illicit funds from the United States for his Leave campaign in addition to rampant overspending.
Following through on a tainted referendum is far more damaging to democracy than holding a clean confirmatory vote.
Also, it's extremely dumb to ask the masses to vote in a plebiscite without understanding the scope and complexity of the issue beforehand. "Leave or Stay" is an incredibly stupid proposition for largely uninformed voters. Offering the option of leaving without providing the cost and tradeoffs, beyond the lies of Farage, et al., is essentially worthless. If voters understand the damage to the economy and quality of life, they may realize that staying in the EU is advantageous.
Last edited:
If its for the betterment of the country then its OK if I'm not quite happy. If I am voting for something that will potentially damage the lies of most people in the country I expect politicians to come in and stop that from happening.
Well if you voted for it in the first place then the option that you think is for the betterment of the country is the option that is being overturned.....
I’ll be honest with you mate, democracy doesn’t really fill me with confidence. Don’t get me wrong, there isn’t really a viable alternative that I can think of, but that doesn’t mean democracy is infallible.
I live in a country where people vote strictly along party lines, based on family upbringing. Barely anyone votes on the actual issues. Combine that with the fact that there are a large number of uneducated people that vote, which is of course their right, and I really don’t hold much stock in democracy. This is amplified even further by the fact that a lot of the most educated people I know, particularly in my age bracket, abstain from voting altogether because of disillusionment with the candidates.
So no, I don’t believe that democracy should be upheld no matter what, especially when it’s to the negative of the populace. There have been many many tangible examples of how Brexit has already, and will continue to make things worse for everyone, with pretty much no examples of how things can get better. In a situation like this, the leaders are supposed to do what they’re paid to do, and lead. Do what’s best for the country, even if it goes against the votes of the people kicking and screaming.
I doubt you will ever find a 'clean' campaign by any political party if you dig hard enough. I agree for the need for a clean confirmatory vote but I'm not sure you'll ever get one.
See so many people saying it's undemocratic not to leave who wouldn't have even known what democracy meant til this.
This has very little to do with democracy, and a lot to do with a government having tried for over two years to deliver a coherent plan that wins support from groups of people with very different ideas as to what "leaving" entails, and failing. That is why there's still chat about a second ref. Because remaining is straightforward, and it's fairly easy to believe minds may have altered now that there isn't a refugee crisis on the news every day (you'll note that everyone's gone from accepting that immigration was the main driver of the vote in 2016 to...basically not talking about it).
Its not MY interests I'm worried about! Brexit has already proven to be a diaster for the country, people used it a protest vote and they are going to be ones who suffer. There is no rule to say things must be implemented, its not a clear failure at all. You are failing to understand how the referendum process works, it was non binding. Its been 3 years and it has been proven the whole thing should never have been just yes or no.
I'm sorry but your last statement shows you have no clue regarding the illegalities. This is not just a case of people lying. This is people breaking the law with regard to election spending, rules which are set to make an election or referendum fair. Vote Leave and Leave EU broke the law and investigations are continuing with the National Crime Agency. So no, its not just a case of lies and untruths.
Absolutely. The Brexit vote in 2016 was predicated on some semblance that the government would be able to deliver a coherent exit strategy. They have failed blatantly at doing so - and our sovereign parliament (elected after the referendum, mind) is refusing to agree on any of the options presented to them for leaving.
Fair enough. I agree that democracy has its flaws, and there no more evident than today, where it seems we can vote and vote and vote and never get an answer.
I would say the biggest flaw in democracy is that people can be so unaware of issues that they will literally vote against their best interests purely due to party tribalism, or a few words being tossed their way.
Look you can say the referendum was unfair. But the people had the choice to remove the Tory party from government to put a stop to May continuing with this farce, but they soundly rejected that as well in the second GE 2017.
You can't really say that was an illegal election too?!