Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
I understand the idea that it might be a good idea to give the UK a fair deal given you're such a big economy.

However, doesn't that then make it more likely that other countries will seek to breakaway?

Cutting off your nose to spite your face is bad, but if it prevents you from having to sever several other limbs....

I mean lets say Brexit really hammers the UK. Doesn't that then shore up the rest of the EU through fear of falling into the same trap?
 
I understand the idea that it might be a good idea to give the UK a fair deal given you're such a big economy.

However, doesn't that then make it more likely that other countries will seek to breakaway?

Cutting off your nose to spite your face is bad, but if it prevents you from having to sever several other limbs....

I mean lets say Brexit really hammers the UK. Doesn't that then shore up the rest of the EU through fear of falling into the same trap?
Actually I truthfully think the EU won't be around in 10 yrs time. Greece will go soon (you'll have to trust me on that) and Italy and Spain are going to struggle in the next couple of years. Please don't worry, we really will be ok. (Now I really am off so don't anyone take advantage of me not being around to respond).
 
You seriously think it is better to have to accept the four basic principles including free movement of people, pay 83% to the EU budget of what you do now, have to implement the EU regulations and directives - without having any possibility to vote on them? Wow.


Too lazy to write my own posts so I'll just quote Hannan.

So when every non-EU territory from the Isle of Man to Montenegro has access to the European free trade area, which model should we follow? The nations arguably most comparable to Britain, being neither microstates nor ex-communist countries, are Iceland, Norway and Switzerland. All three prefer their current deal to ours: 60 per cent of Icelanders, 79 per cent of Norwegians and 82 per cent of Swiss oppose EU membership. Who can blame them? Norway and Switzerland are the wealthiest and second-wealthiest nations on Earth.

Norway is a member of the European Economic Area (EEA); Switzerland is in EFTA. The EEA was established in 1992 as a waiting room for the EU. It contains what was originally envisaged as a transitional mechanism for the adoption of EU legislation — the ‘fax democracy’ which Europhiles like to bang on about.

Never mind the archaic metaphor: Little Europeans are nostalgists at heart. The charge is that Norway has no vote in some EU regulations that it later enforces. But this is more a problem in theory than in practice. According to the EFTA Secretariat, the EU generated 52,183 legal instruments between 2000 and 2013, of which Norway adopted 4,724 — 9 per cent. A written answer to a parliamentary question in Iceland found a similar proportion: 6,326 out of 62,809 EU legal acts between 1994 and 2014. Yet rather than use the official statistics, Europhiles have seized on a remark by a Eurofanatical Norwegian minister to the effect that ‘three quarters of our laws’ come from Brussels, and have -solemnly translated that throwaway line into an official-sounding ‘75 per cent’.

In Switzerland, there is no ambiguity: the figure is zero per cent. The Swiss sometimes copy EU regulations for reasons of economy of scale, though more often both Switzerland and the EU are adopting global rules. But though Swiss exporters must meet EU standards when selling to the EU (just as they must meet Japanese standards when selling to Japan), they generally don’t apply those standards to their domestic economy. Britain, by contrast, must apply 100 per cent of EU regulations to 100 per cent of its economy.

Switzerland is not a full participant in the single market in services. This doesn’t mean, obviously, that UBS can’t operate in Frankfurt, but it does mean that Swiss financial institutions are not part of the same regulatory structure as those in the EU. If they want to trade there, they must adopt different rules. The flipside, of course, is that Zurich doesn’t need to worry about the expensive and sometimes downright malicious EU regulations that menace London: the Alternative Investment Fund Managers Directive, the short-selling ban, the bonus cap, the Financial Transactions Tax.

Now here’s the clinching statistic. The EU takes 64 per cent of Swiss exports, as opposed to 45 per cent of British exports. Europhiles like to claim that ‘around’ half of our exports go to the EU, but that figure has fallen by 10 per cent since 2006. How much lower must it go before we drop the idea that we need to merge our political institutions?

To summarise, then, Norway gets a better deal than Britain currently does, and Switzerland a better deal than Norway. But a post-EU Britain, with 65 million people to Switzerland’s eight million and Norway’s five, should expect something better yet.

The deal on offer is based on free trade and intergovernmental co-operation. We’ll recover our parliamentary sovereignty and, with it, the ability to sign bilateral trade deals with non-EU countries, as Norway and Switzerland do — an increasingly important advantage when every continent in the world is growing except Antarctica and Europe. We’d obviously remain outside Schengen.

Would we have to pay a participation fee? According to Professor Herman Matthijs of the Free University of Brussels, who has produced the only like-with-like comparator, Iceland’s annual per capita contribution is €50, Switzerland’s €68 and Norway’s €107 — largely because Norway insists on opting into lots of EU aid and research projects. Iceland, though it has precisely the same treaty terms, chooses to participate in fewer common activities and so pays less. The United Kingdom’s -current per -capita annual payment, by the same methodology, is €229.

Why should the other member states allow Britain such a deal? Because it would be in everyone’s interest. The UK runs a structural deficit with the EU, only partly offset by its surplus with the rest of the world. On the day we left, we would immediately become the EU’s biggest export market. The idea that either side would wish to jeopardise the flow of cross-Channel trade is bizarre. And, in any case, it is remarkably difficult, under WTO rules, to apply a trade barrier where you previously didn’t have one.

Many European federalists actively campaign for Britain to be given an economics-only relationship — what Jacques Delors calls ‘privileged partnership’ and Guy Verhofstadt ‘associate membership’. It would allow them to push ahead with a European army, a common tax system and so on, while Britain led an outer tier of some 20 European states and territories, part of a common -market but not a common government.

‘Iceland is much better off outside the EU,’ says prime minister Sigmundur Davíð Gunnlaugsson. ‘Unemployment is minimal, purchasing power has never been higher, and we have control over our own legal framework, currency and natural resources.’

Iceland has 300,000 people. Britain is the fifth largest economy in the world, the fourth military power, a leading member of the G7 and one of five permanent seat-holders on the UN Security Council. I think we might just about scrape by.

edit: Crossie since I'm disputing you're 83% claim here is a link to the peer reviewed academic study where Hannan gets his data from.

http://iasir.net/AIJRHASSpapers/AIJRHASS14-306.pdf

All the sources and methodology are there, can you do the same for your figure please?
 
I wonder what odds you could get on article 50 never being invoked?
 
It's such a stupid myth.

European Parliament - directly elected
European Commission - executive branch, voted by the Parliament, just like most executives are in each member country, hence indirectly elected
European Council - Heads of State or Government, elected by their people (Monarchs are excluded; if they're head of a given state, it's the head of government that is the member)
 
The deal's a two way thing. If we don't agree then there's no deal. The EU want to keep trade with us and us with them so I still hold that they'll have enough sense to compromise. If not the Euro will end up fecked completely.

Well there will be no deal. The UK will lose dealing with one of the biggest single markets around while the EU will lose a relatively rich but small land the size of 1/3 of Texas. Let me remind you whose hesitating in activating the Brexit process up and whose encouraging this process to start asap

The Eu can't give in on its 4 fundamental principles. It's very existence lie on it
 
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The only way the EU has created 50 or 60 thousand legal instruments in a decade and a half is if they're counting every sentence of trade deals with every country we have trade deals with.
 
I think the UK is gonna be completely fine on a EEA agreement like Norway, but that's not the point is it? The majority of voters absolutely did not want to be in the EEA.

The majority of voters wanted to leave the EU, being a member of the EEA is no the same as being in the EU.
 
The majority of voters wanted to leave the EU, being a member of the EEA is no the same as being in the EU.
They voted for independence day, not a watered down deal. The reason the backtracking started before the votes were counted were because vote leave were hoping to come close and gain internal power, they didn't want this. They know they can't achieve what they promised.
 
Hannan admitted he was full of shit the second the referendum was over and crawled under a rock. Hardly a good source.

No he didn't. If you are referring to his Newsnight interview he maintained the exact same position as he did throughout the campaign.
 
Actually I truthfully think the EU won't be around in 10 yrs time. Greece will go soon (you'll have to trust me on that) and Italy and Spain are going to struggle in the next couple of years. Please don't worry, we really will be ok. (Now I really am off so don't anyone take advantage of me not being around to respond).

Greece won't be missed
 
No he didn't. If you are referring to his Newsnight interview he maintained the exact same position as he did throughout the campaign.
What even are these 50 or 60 thousand legal instruments? The EU isn't averaging 10 rules a day. It's a blatantly obtuse and meaningless article that likely includes deals that EFTA and the EEA aren't part of. He's full of shit, that's why he's hiding now.
 
They voted for independence day, not a watered down deal. The reason the backtracking started before the votes were counted were because vote leave were hoping to come close and gain internal power, they didn't want this. They know they can't achieve what they promised.

Sorry but I want to deal with facts, not speculation and guesswork.

The majority voted to leave the EU, that is all. Claiming anything otherwise is dishonest
 
Sorry but I want to deal with facts, not speculation and guesswork.

The majority voted to leave the EU, that is all. Claiming anything otherwise is dishonest

I genuinely think most Leave voters voted out simply to try to reduce immigration after seeing the Tory party promise go to pot, and really have been horribly conned on that basis by the right wing press who want more leverage over the government and the Leave campaign, many of whom felt a protest vote was either a good route to power or to EU reform. Immigration will reduce eventually but it won't be because of this vote and it will help virtually noone who voted for it.
 
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Anyone who thinks leave won for any other reason than immigration is deluding themselves.
 
I still have not seen any basis for claims that in the long term we'll be better off. None at all. Every single potential reason I heard from the leave campaign was absolute bollocks.

On the contrary I see a lot of benefits from the EU - longest period of uninterrupted peace in Europe in centurie, (maybe millennia?), more or less constant economic growth, mostly good regulations, free movement, no trade tariffs...

Well none of us will know the answer for a fair while on that. Even one quite staunch remainer I spoke to last week feels that the long term prognosis is positive. However, he voted based on the short-medium term as he works in oil and gas in Aberdeen and is worried about a further ravaging of the industry up there. It's different for me - I work in the same industry as him but we're not overly reliant on business from Aberdeen whereas the company he works for is.

I too think there are good things about the EU, otherwise I wouldn't have been a remainer to start with. However, I was concerned about further integration down the line and shoe-horning even more diverse economies into the union plus I could see renewed pressure on us to join the Euro.

I love Europe and Europeans but I don't like what the EU has become. You may disagree but I think they often treat their member countries and the citizens of those countries with contempt. They've plenty of previous for not accepting or ignoring a democratic vote that has gone against them (Nice Treaty in Ireland for example) and pushing for a second vote instead.
 
Well none of us will know the answer for a fair while on that. Even one quite staunch remainer I spoke to last week feels that the long term prognosis is positive. However, he voted based on the short-medium term as he works in oil and gas in Aberdeen and is worried about a further ravaging of the industry up there. It's different for me - I work in the same industry as him but we're not overly reliant on business from Aberdeen whereas the company he works for is.

I too think there are good things about the EU, otherwise I wouldn't have been a remainer to start with. However, I was concerned about further integration down the line and shoe-horning even more diverse economies into the union plus I could see renewed pressure on us to join the Euro.

I love Europe and Europeans but I don't like what the EU has become. You may disagree but I think they often treat their member countries and the citizens of those countries with contempt. They've plenty of previous for not accepting or ignoring a democratic vote that has gone against them (Nice Treaty in Ireland for example).

Yeah I am more or less of the same opinion. I have to admit to being a fairly cowardly Remain voter, voting that way as there did not seem adequate support for Leave amongst the people needed to make it work. There is a case for doing it.
 
What even are these 50 or 60 thousand legal instruments? The EU isn't averaging 10 rules a day. It's a blatantly obtuse and meaningless article that likely includes deals that EFTA and the EEA aren't part of. He's full of shit, that's why he's hiding now.

All different kinds of legislation, regulations, directives, tariff agreements etc. Yes the EU does do that much legislating, you can see for yourself at EUR-lex. I'm surprised you would be so active in a discussion about the EU without being aware of this.
 
Well none of us will know the answer for a fair while on that. Even one quite staunch remainer I spoke to last week feels that the long term prognosis is positive. However, he voted based on the short-medium term as he works in oil and gas in Aberdeen and is worried about a further ravaging of the industry up there. It's different for me - I work in the same industry as him but we're not overly reliant on business from Aberdeen whereas the company he works for is.

I too think there are good things about the EU, otherwise I wouldn't have been a remainer to start with. However, I was concerned about further integration down the line and shoe-horning even more diverse economies into the union plus I could see renewed pressure on us to join the Euro.

I love Europe and Europeans but I don't like what the EU has become. You may disagree but I think they often treat their member countries and the citizens of those countries with contempt. They've plenty of previous for not accepting or ignoring a democratic vote that has gone against them (Nice Treaty in Ireland for example) and pushing for a second vote instead.
The only thing I am not sure about with the EU is that it has got far too big. Not sure either when it should have stopped growing. It has got too bloated.
 
All different kinds of legislation, regulations, directives, tariff agreements etc. Yes the EU does do that much legislating, you can see for yourself at EUR-lex. I'm surprised you would be so active in a discussion about the EU without being aware of this.
That doesn't come close to 10 a day. What are the tens of thousands not listed there? Is it at all possible that Hannan has got you hook, line and sinker?
 
Well none of us will know the answer for a fair while on that. Even one quite staunch remainer I spoke to last week feels that the long term prognosis is positive. However, he voted based on the short-medium term as he works in oil and gas in Aberdeen and is worried about a further ravaging of the industry up there. It's different for me - I work in the same industry as him but we're not overly reliant on business from Aberdeen whereas the company he works for is.

I too think there are good things about the EU, otherwise I wouldn't have been a remainer to start with. However, I was concerned about further integration down the line and shoe-horning even more diverse economies into the union plus I could see renewed pressure on us to join the Euro.

I love Europe and Europeans but I don't like what the EU has become. You may disagree but I think they often treat their member countries and the citizens of those countries with contempt. They've plenty of previous for not accepting or ignoring a democratic vote that has gone against them (Nice Treaty in Ireland for example) and pushing for a second vote instead.

But why though? Why do they think the long term prognosis is good? On what basis? O can find no argument to support that.

I agree with you on the ridiculousness of their refusal to accept various referendums tbf. But then when has a referendum not been ridiculous? Why did representative democracy evolve if not to save us from mob rule?

The world's politicians as a whole are out of touch and pretty much all believe the same things. It's a staggering case of groupthink. But the EU is by and large a force for good in the UK and being pissed off with politics is a crazy reason to vote out.
 
Yeah I am more or less of the same opinion. I have to admit to being a fairly cowardly Remain voter, voting that way as there did not seem adequate support for Leave amongst the people needed to make it work. There is a case for doing it.

Nothing cowardly about voting the way you did mate - most of us are risk-averse and I wavered myself as the day of the vote neared.