Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[JPRouve]

In Life, people generally arrive at a decision and stick to it and are not plagued by indecision

What decision is that? The terms of brexit were negotiated after the referendum, so what is the decision that people took regarding the nature of brexit?

 

[Carolina Red]

No I'm a person who does not want continous uncertainty of what neverendums bring, which is what you are effectively advocating for

Induciviness is a weak trait in an individual, in can be catastrophic at a national level

In that case, why have a referendum in 2016 at all, since the case had been decided back in the 1970s?

Seems to me that based on your logic, the Leave bloc is who have advocated a “neverendum” as they refused to accept the results of the 1975 vote and constantly attempted to get referendums and candidates elected that would undo that vote.

In Life, people generally arrive at a decision and stick to it and are not plagued by indecision

Right, well, that’s not true at all.

 

[horsechoker]

In Life, people generally arrive at a decision and stick to it and are not plagued by indecision

The word regret exists for a reason.

 

[Bola]

What decision is that? The terms of brexit were negotiated after the referendum, so what is the decision that people took regarding the nature of brexit?

To exit the EU. Not exit the EU with y, z or x deal

 

[NinjaFletch]

No I'm a person who does not want continous uncertainty of what neverendums bring, which is what you are effectively advocating for

Induciviness is a weak trait in an individual, in can be catastrophic at a national level

It's rare we get people outing themselves as actual fascists on here rather than couching it in euphemistic terms, so shall we continue pretending that you actually care about democracy or continue on to the bit where you argue that democracy is inherently weak and that Britain needs an autocratic strongman to bring back the good times?

 

[Bola]

In that case, why have a referendum in 2016 at all, since the case had been decided back in the 1970s?

Seems to me that based on your logic, the Leave bloc is who have advocated a “neverendum” as they refused to accept the results of the 1975 vote.

Right, well, that’s not true at all.

Thought I already explained the 1st part. It's a matter of time frames- 40 years is very different from 2/ 3 years. One is a generational decision, the other is a neverrendum

Also, what was voted for in the 70s is not what the EC is now.

 

[Bola]

It's rare we get people outing themselves as actual fascists on here rather than couching it in euphemistic terms, so shall we continue pretending that you actually care about democracy or continue on to the bit where you argue that democracy is inherently weak and that Britain needs an autocratic strongman to bring back the good times?

If we want an autocratic strongman then we are best staying in the EU

 

[JPRouve]

To exit the EU. Not exit the EU with y, z or x deal

But the Leave campaign was mainly based on y, z or x deal. The famous Norway deal being the most publicized.

 

[Bola]

The word regret exists for a reason.

Which is what we will have if we keep repeating single issue refendums every few years

 

[Bola]

But the Leave campaign was mainly based on y, z or x deal. The famous Norway deal being the most publicized.

No. The ballot paper gave a binary choice of remaining or leaving

 

[The Firestarter]

Yeah people never regret or change their decisons , ever. What kind of bullshit argument is that ?

 

[NinjaFletch]

If we want an autocratic strongman then we are best staying in the EU

Surprised you're so against staying in it then, if that's how you feel.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

But the Leave campaign was mainly based on y, z or x deal. The famous Norway deal being the most publicized.

That was only up until the Brexiter charlatans realised that it involved Freedom of Movement , being a bit dim in the intelligence department.

 

[Carolina Red]

Thought I already explained the 1st part. It's a matter of time frames- 40 years is very different from 2/ 3 years. One is a generational decision, the other is a neverrendum

Also, what was voted for in the 70s is not what the EC is now.

It’s not really a difference of time frames though if the Leave camp has been constantly pestering for another referendum since 1975... which history shows to be true.

Joined in 1973, referendum in 1975, campaign centered on Leave in 1983, UKIP formed in 1993, Referendum Party formed in 1994, campaign centered on Leave in 1997, UKIP constantly pushing for Leave since their founding...

 

[JPRouve]

No. The ballot paper gave a binary choice of remaining or leaving

Norway isn't in the EU and that's the type of deal that people where offered by the leave campaign which they failed to create. You don't think that leavers should be given the opportunity to decide what type of exit they want since the one initially offered was a lie?

 

[Bola]

It’s not really a difference of time frames though if the Leave camp has been constantly pestering for another referendum since 1975... which history shows to be true.

Joined in 1973, referendum in 1975, campaign centered on Leave in 1983, UKIP formed in 1993, Referendum Party formed in 1994, campaign centered on Leave in 1997, UKIP constantly pushing for Leave since their founding...

That was their choice and eventually it got public support.

No different (apart from gaining public support) from offshoots of the communist and Far Right fascists movements being around.

 

[Bola]

Norway isn't in the EU and that's the type of deal that people where offered by the leave campaign which they failed to create. You don't think that leavers should be given the opportunity to decide what type of exit they want since the one initially offered was a lie?

Not sure how to explain it any other way, but ballot paper did not specify a deal, not did it say 'this is a 2 part vote'

 

[Carolina Red]

That was their choice and eventually it got public support.

No different (apart from gaining public support) from offshoots of the communist and Far Right fascists movements being around.

So if it’s “their choice”, meaning the elected representatives of the UK, to put another referendum to the British people...

 

[Maticmaker]

Yeah people never regret or change their decisons , ever. What kind of bullshit argument is that ?

Most people that I know (admittedly not a scientific sample) still retain their Leave or Remain position's, in fact most are even more entrenched in their views, if that was possible! Of course people change their minds, but usually after the effects of their decisions have been felt, i.e. 'byers remorse' etc.

There is no real evidence that large numbers of people (i.e. enough to give a larger overall majority one way or the other) have changed their minds about leaving or remaining. We were given a binary choice on this matter, by Parliament, to remain or leave nothing can undo that result. The question is will the MP's enact this mandate or will they not... to be honest I suspect either way the next decade will change the face of British politics forever... or until a new referendum is called, that is if any future Government is silly enough to try!

 

[Silva]

the ballot paper also said nothing about ending freedom of movement, would you be okay with a brexit that has freedom of movement in it?

 

[Silva]

Most people that I know (admittedly not a scientific sample) still retain their Leave or Remain position's, in fact most are even more entrenched in their views, if that was possible! Of course people change their minds, but usually after the effects of their decisions have been felt, i.e. 'byers remorse' etc.

There is no real evidence that large numbers of people (i.e. enough to give a larger overall majority one way or the other) have changed their minds about leaving or remaining. We were given a binary choice on this matter, by Parliament, to remain or leave nothing can undo that result. The question is will the MP's enact this mandate or will they not... to be honest I suspect either way the next decade will change the face of British politics forever... or until a new referendum is called, that is if any future Government is silly enough to try!

it's a 1% swing and we're pretty much at the stage where enough old people have died/enough new voters are of age for the referendum to go the other way without anyone changing their mind

 

[JPRouve]

Not sure how to explain it any other way, but ballot paper did not specify a deal, not did it say 'this is a 2 part vote'

It also didn't suggest that it was a one part vote or that people had no right to be questioned about the nature of a deal. It's worth remembering that it was an advisory referendum and that leaving was never an obligation.

 

[Bola]

So if it’s “their choice”, meaning the elected representatives of the UK, to put another referendum to the British people...

In 40s years time if I'm correctly following your train of thought?

 

[Bola]

It also didn't suggest that it was a one part vote or that people had no right to be questioned about the nature of a deal. It's worth remembering that it was an advisory referendum and that leaving was never an obligation.

Bit pointless having an advisory referendum

They may as well.just send everyone a survy monkey link along with questions of FPP, nationalisation, tuition fees......

 

[Silva]

In 40s years time if I'm correctly following your train of thought?

would you be okay with a brexit where we left the european union but maintained the 4 freedoms with the EU?

 

[Carolina Red]

In 40s years time if I'm correctly following your train of thought?

Well, if we are following your train of thought, the only reason it took 40 years is because it took that long to build popular support.

If the popular support is there now, then you should have no objection to it... unless you think you’ll lose, that is.

 

[GloryHunter07]

(Re)build the wall!

Seriously though, this has become such a mess. Does Scotland have enough of an economy to be self sufficient and keep the same standard of living in the event that they remain with the EU?

We had that debate for Scotlands Indyref and the answer is probably not, but it depends on who you ask. What currency they use would be a big problem to start with.

 

[Maticmaker]

it's a 1% swing and we're pretty much at the stage where enough old people have died/enough new voters are of age for the referendum to go the other way without anyone changing their mind

It would be still a small 1% to maybe 2% swing, not exactly conclusive, even if all the dead people had voted leave and all the young people would vote remain. If we are talking in such terms what about all the middle aged people who have become 'old' who might vote Leave because they are p***ed off with the EU and all the young people who will not have registered to vote, even now! Its too close to call either way and is the politics of the madhouse (as Einstein paraphrased it) to go down that route again expecting a different result!

 

[Carolina Red]

We had that debate for Scotlands Indyref and the answer is probably not, but it depends on who you ask. What currency they use would be a big problem to start with.

Thanks for the response.

Yeah, I can’t see the UK being willing to let them still use the £ if they choose to leave and remain with the EU.

There’s another huge issue with UK military bases in Scotland as well.

 

[JPRouve]

Bit pointless having an advisory referendum

They may as well.just send everyone a survy monkey link along with questions of FPP, nationalisation, tuition fees......

Well, that's the type of referendum that they chose.

 

[Silva]

It would be still a small 1% to maybe 2% swing, not exactly conclusive, even if all the dead people had voted leave and all the young people would vote remain. If we are talking in such terms what about all the middle aged people who have become 'old' who might vote Leave because they are p***ed off with the EU and all the young people who will not have registered to vote, even now! Its too close to call either way and is the politics of the madhouse (as Einstein paraphrased it) to go down that route again expecting a different result!

it's not all of them, but the great irony of the demographic breakdown in the referendum was that demographic changes would swing the vote just as we came to the exit deadline, there are also a lot of gammon faces who initially voted remain because they're status quo tories who now shout "gerron with it" and might win it for Brexit though

 

[Bola]

Well, if we are following your train of thought, the only reason it took 40 years is because it took that long to build popular support.

If the popular support is there now, then you should have no objection to it... unless you think you’ll lose, that is.

I go back to my eaelier point about revoting on every law/ election every 2 years.

Uncertainty is a disease and neverendums incubate it

 

[Carolina Red]

I go back to my eaelier point about revoting on every law/ election every 2 years.

Uncertainty is a disease and neverendums incubate it

Wait... you just had no objection to Leave people pushing for another referendum repeatedly since 1973. “That was their choice” and all. Now you revert back to the “neverendum” catchphrase?

Seems to me that you are only opposing it because you fear the outcome. Can’t have it both ways.

 

[Silva]

the only thing that never seems to end is your repetition of the dullest phrases in the english language

 

[Bola]

Wait... you just had no objection to Leave people pushing for another referendum repeatedly since 1973. “That was their choice” and all. Now you revert back to the “neverendum” catchphrase?

Seems to me that you are only opposing it because you fear the outcome. Can’t have it both ways.

Read my earlier post to Ninja earlier on a way ahead. That's if your comprehension can break through your bias

 

[Carolina Red]

Read my earlier post to Ninja earlier on a way ahead. That's if your comprehension can break through your bias

Projecting much?

I don’t have a dog in this fight. You are just being disingenuous with your argument.

 

[Carolina Red]

As to your post to Ninja...

“How about we Brexit”... Nobody even knows that that means. Not even the May government itself.

 

[Bola]

Projecting much?

I don’t have a dog in this fight. You are just being disingenuous with your argument.

I'll summarise it again.

Leave

Let new/ existing parties that want the EU l, select the appropriate candidates and manifesto pledges

Have a GE

Have parliament vote for a referendum

Hold a referendum



There is your fair process.

 

[Buster15]

Does it? There was one in 2015 and 2017 and probably another one in the not too distant future (i.e. before 2022)

I was referring to a referendum in a specific country being rare as opposed to general elections.

 

[Bola]

As to your post to Ninja...

“How about we Brexit”... Nobody even knows that that means. Not even the May government itself.

It's fairly clear now. It's hard exit on WTO, or May's deal.

Running out of time for anything else