Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Bola said:
The reporting hasn't been particularly great on the implications of the deal, but the following article perhaps better articulates some of my 'trapped' concerns around the backstop

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...irish-border-guarantee-may-deal-a8678306.html

Re the time limit, it was mainly to avoid a cliff edge this year that could have significant consequences. You are right that we could be in the same position 2/3 years down the line and a tough decision would still need to be made. But my hope is that it buys time for a sensible solution to gain consensus by all involved. Personally, I think it would be a different negotiating scenario, with greater engagement in the UK, while there is greater assertiveness but less adversarial relations with the EU in negotiating - tjrtevis growing Brexit fatigue and basic level, most people want it sorted amicably
Click to expand...

That article does give a bit more insight on it thanks, the part about the UK and EU having to agree to the backstop is interesting. But unless someone subscribes to the theory that the EU would not act in good faith and agree to end the backstop once a viable solution is found then i don't see the problem there.

I can understand people have some concerns but it boils down to semantics doesn't it. Regardless of who does or doesn't have the control to end the backstop. The backstop if it's ever needed has been designed primarily for the purpose protecting the Good Friday Agreement. It will only be needed as long as it's needed, if theres no solution to replace it why would the UK ever want the option to end it?

Ending the backstop would effectively be ending the GFA.

You are right that we could be in the same position 2/3 years down the line and a tough decision would still need to be made. But my hope is that it buys time for a sensible solution to gain consensus by all involved.
Click to expand...

With respect mate to most of the people in Northern Ireland that sort of deal would just not be good enough, hope isn't enough the backstop offers a guarantee to maintain the GFA and the peace that came with it.

And the tough decision i am assuming is whether or not the UK decides to completely withdraw from the CU/SM and break the GFA if no solution is found in 2-3 years?

I can safely say 2-3 years won't be long enough to solve the border issue, during the last 2-3 years no solution was found. I don't have a clue how long it would take, it could be 5/10/20/?? years. No one knows which is why the backstop is needed.
 
British chocolate may be better than the stuff the yanks get, but that's not because the manufacturers in the UK are fighting to keep it that way.

The Spanish famously wanted to officially label British chocolate as "chocolate substitute" because it contains some vegetable fats rather than only cocoa butter.

If anything, it's the EU who are the ones maintaining chocolate standards in the UK. Manufacturers of British chocolate have been trying to shift towards US style chocolate for ages in order to reduce costs and increase conformity across markets.

Also, the UK and Ireland have already been allowed an exception by the EU courts to produce 'milk chocolate' with only 20% cocoa solids compared to a minimum of 25% on the continent. That's why in Europe, products like Cadbury's Dairy Milk have to be labelled as "family milk chocolate" so as to differentiate themselves from the higher quality local milk chocolates.

So, if anything, it's the UK who are responsible for worsening our own chocolate and the EU are the ones trying to stop us.

And whilst it's true that portion sizes are getting smaller, that's not because of anything Europe are doing. It's down to the fact that cocoa is getting more expensive due to increased demand from places like China. If portion sizes are an issue, nobody is stopping consumers from buying two bars and paying for the privelege.
 
fecking British chocolate :lol: this thread has taken some weird turns lately
 
Maybe was posted here before back in the day. But this is how i looked a german supermarket when one day they decided to eliminate their foreign products from the shelves to show how interdependent is on foreign markets regarding pricing and product diversity. That would happen as well in a UK supermarket if they would do the same initiative.

Of course Brexit would not cause this image, but that image shows how many products would be affected on pricing and supply chain as not only EU products would be affected but also all the products that comes from countries that the EU has trade agreements that UK will not have anymore if there is no deal

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-racism-diversity-largest-chain-a7908551.html

417019_90ddd1d4bf1748f280195e76ca7c788f.jpg
 
Dante said:
British chocolate may be better than the stuff the yanks get, but that's not because the manufacturers in the UK are fighting to keep it that way.

The Spanish famously wanted to officially label British chocolate as "chocolate substitute" because it contains some vegetable fats rather than only cocoa butter.

If anything, it's the EU who are the ones maintaining chocolate standards in the UK. Manufacturers of British chocolate have been trying to shift towards US style chocolate for ages in order to reduce costs and increase conformity across markets.

Also, the UK and Ireland have already been allowed an exception by the EU courts to produce 'milk chocolate' with only 20% cocoa solids compared to a minimum of 25% on the continent. That's why in Europe, products like Cadbury's Dairy Milk have to be labelled as "family milk chocolate" so as to differentiate themselves from the higher quality local milk chocolates.

So, if anything, it's the UK who are responsible for worsening our own chocolte and the EU are the ones trying to stop us.

And whilst it's true that portion sizes are getting smaller, that's not because of anything Europe are doing. It's down to the fact that cocoa is getting more expensive due to increased demand from places like China. If portion sizes are an issue, nobody is stopping consumers from buying two bars and paying for the privelege.
Click to expand...

Bit confused by your post, are saying that the UK producers of chocolate are not responsible for the maintaning/ increasing the quality of chocolate and its primarily the EU instead? That seems a very bold claim.

There are numerous companies of varying sizes that produce products of high quality (e.g. Hotel Chocolat, through to small independent craftisans), how exactly are the EU responsible for the drive of this type of chocolate and also 'trying to stop the UK from worsening it's chocolate' for these type of products?

If you are referring specifically to the more mainstream chocolate like cadburys (rather than the above), then I can understand where you are coming from to an extent (e.g. your point of labelling, which can discourage lower cocoa content), though i'd contend your point on how far "the UK' are responsible for the drop in quality. Beyond minimum standards, the overall quality of products are determined by companies and beyond the remit of governments. Also, chocolate under the Cadburys brand, is owned by a large international company and much of its production has shifted offshore, therefore its 'Britishness' has been significantly diluted. Meanwhile its overall quality has dropped due to changes in how the products have been designed and made, which as a sample article alludes to below, has been directed at corporate level

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/features/the-many-ways-cadbury-is-losing-its-magic/
 
Bola said:
Bit confused by your post, are saying that the UK producers of chocolate are not responsible for the maintaning/ increasing the quality of chocolate and its primarily the EU instead? That seems a very bold claim.

There are numerous companies of varying sizes that produce products of high quality (e.g. Hotel Chocolat, through to small independent craftisans), how exactly are the EU responsible for the drive of this type of chocolate and also 'trying to stop the UK from worsening it's chocolate' for these type of products?

If you are referring specifically to the more mainstream chocolate like cadburys (rather than the above), then I can understand where you are coming from to an extent (e.g. your point of labelling, which can discourage lower cocoa content), though i'd contend your point on how far "the UK' are responsible for the drop in quality. Beyond minimum standards, the overall quality of products are determined by companies and beyond the remit of governments. Also, chocolate under the Cadburys brand, is owned by a large international company and much of its production has shifted offshore, therefore its 'Britishness' has been significantly diluted. Meanwhile its overall quality has dropped due to changes in how the products have been designed and made, which as a sample article alludes to below, has been directed at corporate level

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/features/the-many-ways-cadbury-is-losing-its-magic/
Click to expand...

Translation: Desperately search for a way to blame the foreigners in the face of cold hard facts.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
I nearly forgot, I have some actual Brexit gossip this week in the same vein as the Nissan news.

One of my clients I teach is the head of digital marketing for a big multinational marketing agency, and one of their huge European multinational clients has just pulled a big campaign based on Brexit uncertainty. If they're doing it, I can only imagine that loads more companies are thinking in the same way. More actual, tangible bad news for the UK directly from Brexit and it's not even happened yet.
Click to expand...

There's going to be a run on investment funds moving to Ireland over the next few weeks. Traditional banks had to move earlier as banking licences are required, investment funds had the luxury of waiting a little longer. They'll move very soon.
 
Buster15 said:
At last. Somebody who actually understands the risks.
Well done.
Click to expand...
And further if you understand that, you’ll understand why Russia has had a dirty hand in the US presidential election and in the Brexit referendum- and indeed why both results should be annulled when proven
 
Bola said:
If you are talking about the backstop element for the Irish border, then there is no easy solution as you've alluded to. What is clear is that the NI being under a separate customs/ border regieme is unacceptable and neither should we have a hard border

My broad approach would be as follows.

- have a transition period of 2 years (give or take) where there is no customs border. This buys time for all involved to develop a solution. This includes the UK broadly following the principles of the customs union, but being able to negotiate deals for the future

- post this period, the best solution appears to be a variant of 'max fac', with simplification of tarrifs and customs processes, pre customs activity and use of technology

- the above is not the perfect solution however as there is still the age old problem of customs fraud which would return with a border (hard or frictionless) returning, particularly on a border with multiple crossing points. I can't see much more of a mitigation other that greater enforcement to act as a deterrent (which partly reduces the risk)

- A ' max fac' type solution would also be aided by the pursuit of free trade to remove the need for tarrifs on the majority of goods. That would be a tough pill for the EU to swallow given the construct of their whole 'project', but protectionism generally isn't a healthy ideology in my view

As i've said not ideal, but it's the basis of a solution and more of a solution of ignoring the issue of sovereignty of NI remaining under an EU trade regime, something that I've generally seen remainers ignore/ dismiss
Click to expand...

So your suggestion is a combo of more time, max fac, and technology.

What is more time going to achieve?

With the messing that has gone on from the UK side, including reneging on a deal, what incentive for the EU to allow more time?

Max fac has been dismissed by the UK side already due to cost mainly. What makes you think it will work?

Technology. What technology?

Some direct questions there, appreciate your thoughts.
 
Gee Male said:
So your suggestion is a combo of more time, max fac, and technology.

What is more time going to achieve?

More chance to find a working solution. The chances significantly increase with 2/3 years over 2 months

With the messing that has gone on from the UK side, including reneging on a deal, what incentive for the EU to allow more time?

If they care about their member state, they have a border issue to solve. It's in their interest to work to a solution. What they offered in the deal (that was rejected), is unworkable and in any negotiation of this type, there is an onus on both sides to find a compromise

Max fac has been dismissed by the UK side already due to cost mainly. What makes you think it will work?

There is the Malthouse proposals as a potential solution (what I call max fac, but there are variations), this is gaining Tory Party support.

As I highlighted in earlier posts, there is no perfect solution

Technology. What technology?

Mainly the ability to conduct pre-customs activity. There are also other examples on the Scandinavian border which could be used as part of a wider solution. Interestingly, they reckon a Malthouse solution could do it using existing tech

Some direct questions there, appreciate your thoughts.
Click to expand...

See answers above, bit busy, so they are short I'm afraid.

As highlighted, not an easy situation to solve.

Grateful for your thoughts on a solution that;

A) Fulfills the referendum of exiting the EU

B) Supports GFA

C) Ensures that the soverignty of the UK and NI is not undermind, such as the enactment of a trade border between parts of the UK
 
Bola said:
Would you care to refute or discuss any particular points, or are you just going to spam out one liners?
Click to expand...

There's enough other people in this thread who are better informed on the specifics of the things you're arguing on who have already refuted you. And, you're ignoring the facts that they've presented which run counter to your opinions.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
There's enough other people in this thread who are better informed on the specifics of the things you're arguing on who have already refuted you. And, you're ignoring the facts that they've presented which run counter to your opinions.
Click to expand...

So you can't put up anything specific

I'll leave you to your one liners that have a trace of bile then
 
Bola said:
See answers above, bit busy, so they are short I'm afraid.

As highlighted, not an easy situation to solve.

Grateful for your thoughts on a solution that;

A) Fulfills the referendum of exiting the EU

B) Supports GFA

C) Ensures that the soverignty of the UK and NI is not undermind, such as the enactment of a trade border between parts of the UK
Click to expand...
There is simply no solution to all three of those beyond keeping the UK in the CU. The sooner everyone realizes this and stops making up alternatives the better. Actually, they don't even make up alternatives, they just say "there are" or "we'll figure them out".
 
Bola said:
So you can't put up anything specific

I'll leave you to your one liners that have a trace of bile then
Click to expand...

Sorry now. Specifics have been put up to you by people more knowledgable than me on the specific subjects you're arguing about. I don't need to repeat them. You need to address them to retain any semblance of not being a WUM.
 
Massive Spanner said:
There is simply no solution to all three of those beyond keeping the UK in the CU. The sooner everyone realizes this and stops making up alternatives the better. Actually, they don't even make up alternatives, they just say "there are" or "we'll figure them out".
Click to expand...

This isn't beyond civilised humans. Not easy, but not impossible.

2/ 3 years largely wasted, the same time again with the right mindsets and I have hope it would be solved.
 
Bola said:
This isn't beyond civilised humans. Not easy, but not impossible.

2/ 3 years largely wasted, the same time again with the right mindsets and I have hope it would be solved.
Click to expand...
Neither is a Dyson sphere but we won't be building one of them any time soon because we've no idea how to.

If it's possible why has nobody been able to put across a solution then in the last 2 or 3 years? Don't you think someone would have been able to by now?

People in this thread are getting aggravated by you because you're saying all these things and offering no actual, tangible solutions, like the vast majority of leave-voters who've been in this thread over the last few years. Remainers are at least able to present facts and reasons when it comes to the issues facing the border, all you and other leavers are able to do is say "well, I'm sure there's a solution to it out there, if we all work together." It's pure fantasy-land, quite frankly.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Neither is a Dyson sphere but we won't be building one of them any time soon because we've no idea how to.

If it's possible why has nobody been able to put across a solution then in the last 2 or 3 years? Don't you think someone would have been able to by now?

People in this thread are getting aggravated by you because you're saying all these things and offering no actual, tangible solutions, like the vast majority of leave-voters who've been in this thread over the last few years. Remainers are at least able to present facts and reasons when it comes to the issues facing the border, all you and other leavers are able to do is say "well, I'm sure there's a solution to it out there, if we all work together." It's pure fantasy-land, quite frankly.
Click to expand...

I've offered some solutions to a problem, not perfect, but an start.

Brexit is going ahead. It's up to you if want to face up to that and offer something constructive, or fully embrace in negative defeatism

I've no interest in engaging in people in the latter category
 
Bola said:
I've offered some solutions to a problem, not perfect, but an start.

Brexit is going ahead. It's up to you if want to face up to that and offer something constructive, or fully embrace in negative defeatism

I've no interest in engaging in people in the latter category
Click to expand...

The Tories don't want anything constructive. It's demonstrably in the interest of some of their leading lights to have a disaster Brexit from which they stand to personally gain and they're sleepwalking the countries towards it very deliberately.
 
Bola said:
I've offered some solutions to a problem, not perfect, but an start.

Brexit is going ahead. It's up to you if want to face up to that and offer something constructive, or fully embrace in negative defeatism

I've no interest in engaging in people in the latter category
Click to expand...
No you haven't. You have not offered any solution to this, your own question.
Bola said:
Grateful for your thoughts on a solution that;

A) Fulfills the referendum of exiting the EU

B) Supports GFA

C) Ensures that the soverignty of the UK and NI is not undermind, such as the enactment of a trade border between parts of the UK
Click to expand...
Your response has simply been "well if we work together I'm sure we can figure it out". That's not a solution or part of a solution, that is wishful thinking.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
The Tories don't want anything constructive. It's demonstrably in the interest of some of their leading lights to have a disaster Brexit from which they stand to personally gain and they're sleepwalking the countries towards it very deliberately.
Click to expand...

I think this is fairly obvious now and also regrettable that the opposition are going to do nothing to prevent it destroying the people that they are supposed to represent. The perfect storm of wankers on both sides.
 
Bola said:
I've offered some solutions to a problem, not perfect, but an start.
Click to expand...

The problem is that you're making the same mistake as the UK negotiators did. That having half a plan means you can push ahead in the hope that the other half will work out in future. The problem being that this is a problem that must have a working solution, or else people could literally die if we crashed back to a hard border. There is no guarantee that a technological solution will work, and EU cannot accept an open border without it.

No-one has squared this circle, because it can't be done within the red lines both sides have.
 
51 days to go, no-one has a solution to the Irish border.

Thus we need an insurance policy just in case a solution isn't found. This is called the backstop which will expire when all parties agree that it is a workable solution.
What is so difficult to understand?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
51 days to go, no-one has a solution to the Irish border.

Thus we need an insurance policy just in case a solution isn't found. This is called the backstop which will expire when all parties agree that it is a workable solution.
What is so difficult to understand?
Click to expand...

What happens if we can't find a workable solution in time?
 
unchanged_lineup said:
I know, right? Lob a bit of "The technology" at it and geronwivit.
Click to expand...
Well that too, I was actually referring to this though:

Bola said:
Interesting how the remainer/ anti Brexit posters quickly descend into insults on this thread. Speaks volumes
Click to expand...

Bola said:
Or perhaps those with an unheathly and entrenched 'the EU can do no wrong' view
Click to expand...

Bola said:
I wasn't trying to be derogatory, but I was getting short at the tone of some of the responses and made a curt response. Looking back, it seems I mixed up your post with other. My apologies
Click to expand...

Bola said:
Good for you.
Click to expand...

Bola said:
Oh dear. Another angry poster
Click to expand...

Bola said:
That's a very bigotted set of views and explains a lot about how you post.
Click to expand...

Bola said:
You are beyond help.

Time for you to go on ignore so I can filter out the unreasoned posts
Click to expand...


And that's just on the last 5 pages.

@Bola don't even bother answering. Your posts are a waste of time.

Just sayin' it like it is.
 
Bola said:
See answers above, bit busy, so they are short I'm afraid.

As highlighted, not an easy situation to solve.

Grateful for your thoughts on a solution that;

A) Fulfills the referendum of exiting the EU

B) Supports GFA

C) Ensures that the soverignty of the UK and NI is not undermind, such as the enactment of a trade border between parts of the UK
Click to expand...

Are you seriously trying to argue that an extra 2 years is needed as they've only had 2/3 months to get this done? The election was in 2016 ffs. Since then, the UK have not put forward a specific proposal to get a deal done - not one. Why would they get another 2 years to piss about?

To answer your question above, the current backstop proposal is the best interim solution, until such time as an agreement has been reached on trade.
 
It's important to remember that there are solutions to the irish border. They simply don't match with british politicians will.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.