Argentina players singing racist chant targeting French players after Copa America final

[Iker Quesadillas]

Reminds me of a friend who sent a message in a whatsapp group which went something in the sense of - I'm not racist but French team has just one white guy.

Yeah, you're not a racist, you just noticed.

laughing while imagining someone looking at the US basketball team and thinking "whoa what the feck where's the white guys?!?"

 

[roseguy64]

Winning a World Cup or Euros is mainly a credit to the football academies of winning country and is a testament to their hard work and ability to produce top talent, regardless if the players are black, white, brown, yellow, green. The fact that an impoverished child refugee like Camavinga can enter a French academy and get high quality training to become a 19yo millionaire who plays for Real Madrid shows that France's football academies aren't just top-tier, they also have almost no barrier to entry unlike other sports/arts domains which charge exorbitant fees and are able to polish any talented kid into a star. The hard work, non-prejudice, non-classism of those in the football system is why France deserved to win the World Cup, focusing on skin color misses this point which deserves to be celebrated.

African politicians also find it hard to admit that it's not about the race of those who win but about the academies and infrastructure provided to kids of all backgrounds which is why African countries don't have the means to compete. There are too few countries where kids from the lowest echleons of society are allowed to participate without financial barriers and obtain world-class training as any other middle-upper class child... Even in multicultural countries like USA soccer is pay-to-play which is a shame.

Yeah the US is extremely holding itself back from being able to compete at the highest level. A lot of their talent gets wasted because they can't compete and get spotted. They'd have a better chance of becoming a professional footballer if they migrated to England than anywhere in the US with how much it costs.

 

[lexisonfire]

Don't get me wrong, we as a society still have a lot of learning to do. But I take objection to the way we are being portrayed in this thread as some sort of haven for racism and xenophobia, like we are all nazis, which is very far from the truth.

Argentina is a homogenous country which has the same problem all homogenous countries do; in homogenous societies where minorities don't have much presence people see no issue with racial slurs against those different to themselves or xenophobic songs against foreigners, because almost everyone is part of the "In Group" and chatting shit about minorities/foreigners is "Social Proof". In other words it boosts one's social standing in homogenous societies for politicians, celebrities, opinion leaders to rouse a sense of togetherness and loyalty by showing discrimination against outsiders, and doubling down on xenophobia & racism makes them look more righteous and loyal within that homogenous society because they mutually confirm that outsider opinions don't matter to the In Group.

Outside criticism only serves to make the homogenous society stand together in solidarity against outsiders because "Even if we aren't correct this is who we are as a people, why do we have to apologize to those outside who don't matter in our country?". This is why Argentinians are so defensive. Any worthwhile criticism can only come from inside their own house, but other than some anonymous users online, nobody in Argentina is going to publically call out the xenophobia or racism as it'll damage their social proof and make them a disloyal pariah at odds with society. Politicians who take a stand against their NT will lose votes and be called a traitor of the masses.

In the multicultural country I'm from it's impossible to talk shit about minorities without blowback because there are enough non-majority race folks to stage a riot. Argentina lacks this sort of a barometer for society's conscience hence they can say the most racist slurs without fear of reprisal. That does tend to make Argentina and many homogenous nations a haven for racism unfortunately, some hide it better due to the imperceptibility of foreign languages.

 

[antohan]

The number is presented in two ways:

1) The total population of black people, either slaves or descendants of slaves, in the area of modern Argentina, was around 30 %.

2) In some cities and regions it was over 50 %.

If the regions with over 50 % was low population areas, then the rest of Argentina must have had a lot of black people for it to reach 30 % in total. But, you're saying that's not true. Unless you want to go back to denying historical data, then it looks like you've trapped yourself in a logical impossibility.

For the total Argentinian population to be around 30 % black, then you either need it to be standard for basically any Argentinian city to have a population of black people approaching that 30 %, or you need some high population regions in those 50+ % areas to drag up the national average.

They are still largely irrelevant data points as far as arguing some sort of ethnic cleansing is concerned.

The population in 1800 was tiny and it is around that point (1815 in Uruguay) that slavery was abolished and therefore the influx stopped.

The demographic evolution during the rest of the 19th Century revolved around three things:

1) Wars of Independence and several Civil Wars thereafter, as can be expected in nascent nations. That black population would have dwindled serving as low level cannon fodder (as was the case universally at the time, only the privileged few stayed back at their tents orchestrating it all)

2) Those same privileged few, the colonial "patricios" that owned vast land extensions due to no other merit than having been granted them for services to the crown, were pretty shit at building a state that looked after the interests of anyone other than themselves. For the rest, healthcare access was very limited, mortality rates horrendous and several epidemics wiped out large swathes of the population (occasionally this state of affairs gave way to previously mentioned civil wars).

3) In the late 19th Century there were huge immigration flows. Economic migrants for the most part, be it due to necessity or entrepreneurial search for a better future. As an example, in 1900 90% of the Uruguayan population had arrived in the last 30 years. I doubt it's as high for Argentina, probably 70-80% in their case. It shoots to pieces any 1800 demographic state of the nation.

You can see then the main forces at play in the dwindling of the afro-descendent share of the population. They have nothing to do with deliberate/targeted actions (as was indeed the case with the indigenous people).

There's one final element, which is how Uruguay moved a lot quicker in offering free state-provided healthcare and secular universal education (1876). While no part of Uruguay ever had 10%, let alone 30-50% in colonial times, today afrodescendents here stand at 8%, 10x as many as in Argentina. No, they weren't whitewashed or deported, much like their modern French counterparts, they conveniently moved somewhere they had better prospects going forward. Good on them.

Finally, I hope you (i.e. anyone bothering to read with no blinkers on) see how idiotic it is to blame "Argentinians" for the genocide of the natives or to find it ironic they oppose colonial mindsets (white man's burden before, "progressive thinking" today). For the most part, Argentina today is the product of those late 19th and early 20th Century economic migrants shifting the balance of power from the privileged few of colonial times to something more equitable. They are still a bit of a car crash when it comes to handling that balance, but they try. And yes, they have enough internal problems as it is to have outsiders branding them racist bigots and targetting the one and only thing that holds them together as one.

I don't think you know the country as well as you think you do Anto. Or if you do, it's through a lens you need to step back and reflect upon a bit.

If you don't want Wikipedia, try this on for size: https://read.dukeupress.edu/hahr/ar...The-Afro-Argentines-of-Buenos-Aires-1800-1900

This wasn't just a few minimal, irrelevant or far flung northern territories as you've suggested. The idea that you can essentially kill off an entire race of people from a country and then claim you don't have a racism problem in that country is disgusting. That intelligent people like yourself from neighbouring countries would support and defend such a claim is really disappointing.

Read above, there was no such thing as "killing an entire race" and nothing in that Duke abstract supports it.

 

[africanspur]

Yup, the same French national team which had players being racist towards the Japanese in 2021 (Dembele and Griezmann), especially if "ching chong" were indeed used.

Not excusing the Enzo but pot calling kettle. What was the french FA responses back in 2019?

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/42...dembele-apologise-for-japan-videos-from-2019/

Humans...its bad unless I am the one doing it

Are most of the posters here commenting members of the French national team then?

 

[That_Bloke]

This is because we have a bit of an inferiority complex. Our national narrative is that we are the best at everything (despite evidence pointing at the contrary) and we are always on the defensive when someone criticizes us (even if they are right, like in this case).

Not all of society is like this of course, you can find on the official argentine football subreddits plenty of posts discussing the issue and recognizing that what our players did was wrong and there are no two ways about it.

Bear in mind that our society is heavily influenced by the beliefs and values from spanish and italian culture, and we generally think that racism is something that only americans do with the KKK and policemen killing black folks.

I watch a lot of content on youtube of foreigners visiting the country because we are very cheap and an attractive nightlife destination. Many of those are black, and from those videos you can tell we are not malicious towards black people nor we hate them, we are just ignorant on the do's and dont's.

Regarding our government officials, I am ashamed of having Milei as president and Villaruel as vicepresident. They are some of the most rancid, far-right nutjobs that were elected because during the campaign for president they showed themselves as people capable of fixing our economic situation. Most of the people here voted for this government to fix the economic issues that haunt us since forever, they paid little attention to anything else. But yeah, they are horrible people and hopefully their government doesn't last too long.

Excellent post.

 

[Swoobs]

Are most of the posters here commenting members of the French national team then?

And am I commenting on most posters here then?

 

[africanspur]

And am I commenting on most posters here then?

So who exactly is calling pot kettle black?

I couldn't care less what the French FA or football team are saying about it, you've got 26 pages of discussion on here from nobody associated with the French FA or team and your sole input is to criticise the French team?

 

[Tarrou]

Yup, the same French national team which had players being racist towards the Japanese in 2021 (Dembele and Griezmann), especially if "ching chong" were indeed used.

Not excusing the Enzo but pot calling kettle. What was the french FA responses back in 2019?

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/42...dembele-apologise-for-japan-videos-from-2019/

Humans...its bad unless I am the one doing it

I don't mean to be condescending but those are different french people mate

 

[africanspur]

They are still largely irrelevant data points as far as arguing some sort of ethnic cleansing is concerned.

The population in 1800 was tiny and it is around that point (1815 in Uruguay) that slavery was abolished and therefore the influx stopped.

The demographic evolution during the rest of the 19th Century revolved around three things:

1) Wars of Independence and several Civil Wars thereafter, as can be expected in nascent nations. That black population would have dwindled serving as low level cannon fodder (as was the case universally at the time, only the privileged few stayed back at their tents orchestrating it all)

2) Those same privileged few, the colonial "patricios" that owned vast land extensions due to no other merit than having been granted them for services to the crown, were pretty shit at building a state that looked after the interests of anyone other than themselves. For the rest, healthcare access was very limited, mortality rates horrendous and several epidemics wiped out large swathes of the population (occasionally this state of affairs gave way to previously mentioned civil wars).

3) In the late 19th Century there were huge immigration flows. Economic migrants for the most part, be it due to necessity or entrepreneurial search for a better future. As an example, in 1900 90% of the Uruguayan population had arrived in the last 30 years. I doubt it's as high for Argentina, probably 70-80% in their case. It shoots to pieces any 1800 demographic state of the nation.

You can see then the main forces at play in the dwindling of the afro-descendent share of the population. They have nothing to do with deliberate/targeted actions (as was indeed the case with the indigenous people).

There's one final element, which is how Uruguay moved a lot quicker in offering free state-provided healthcare and secular universal education (1876). While no part of Uruguay ever had 10%, let alone 30-50% in colonial times, today afrodescendents here stand at 8%, 10x as many as in Argentina. No, they weren't whitewashed or deported, much like their modern French counterparts, they conveniently moved somewhere they had better prospects going forward. Good on them.

Finally, I hope you (i.e. anyone bothering to read with no blinkers on) see how idiotic it is to blame "Argentinians" for the genocide of the natives or to find it ironic they oppose colonial mindsets (white man's burden before, "progressive thinking" today). For the most part, Argentina today is the product of those late 19th and early 20th Century economic migrants shifting the balance of power from the privileged few of colonial times to something more equitable. They are still a bit of a car crash when it comes to handling that balance, but they try. And yes, they have enough internal problems as it is to have outsiders branding them racist bigots and targetting the one and only thing that holds them together as one.


Read above, there was no such thing as "killing an entire race" and nothing in that Duke abstract supports it.

So it wasn't made up data then?

 

[rimaldo]

it’s because if stuff like this that we don’t give the falklands back.

 

[JPRouve]

So who exactly is calling pot kettle black?

I couldn't care less what the French FA or football team are saying about it, you've got 26 pages of discussion on here from nobody associated with the French FA or team and your sole input is to criticise the French team?

And people that were jettisoned after multiple public investigations because they were a bunch of scumbags. He is complaining about people that an entire nation despise. So to make it perfectly explicit, we agree with him the french FA has been led by assholes for a long time, no one has been taking them seriously for the vast majority of my life and Dembélé's actions were rude and definitely racist.

 

[Swoobs]

So who exactly is calling pot kettle black?

I couldn't care less what the French FA or football team are saying about it, you've got 26 pages of discussion on here from nobody associated with the French FA or team and your sole input is to criticise the French team?

U or whoever couldnt care less about the French FA that is fine, but who are you to tell me that the French FA is above criticism?

 

[Jippy]

Maybe those who want to discuss the demography of 1800s Argentina in depth can create a thread in the CE.

 

[africanspur]

U or whoever couldnt care less about the French FA that is fine, but who are you to tell me that the French FA is above criticism?

Again, who said the French FA is above criticism?

 

[antohan]

So it wasn't made up data then?

Off the top of my head I replied to this statement:

Afro-Argentines once made up to 50 percent of population in some cities in 19th century or is that made up data?

Even after checking his source the answer was correct as far as the statement goes. No relevant Argentinian cities had 50% and the few 50%+ readings are from regions (not cities) far up north where there was more mining and intensive agricultural activity.

I'm not being pedantic with the distinction between cities and regions as the former implies urban population which is what immediately looked completely off to me.

 

[antk]

U or whoever couldnt care less about the French FA that is fine, but who are you to tell me that the French FA is above criticism?

You can't read.

 

[antohan]

Maybe those who want to discuss the demography of 1800s Argentina in depth can create a thread in the CE.

Maybe those who aren't interested should abstain from talking bollocks about Argentinians, genocide and whatnot.

 

[Tarrou]

Maybe those who aren't interested should abstain from talking bollocks about Argentinians, genocide and whatnot.

this makes zero sense

 

[antohan]

this makes zero sense

What makes zero sense is people making up arguments about Argentinians committing genocide against their black population

 

[Tarrou]

What makes zero sense is people making up arguments about Argentinians committing genocide against their black population

okay but it makes even less sense for them to do that if they aren't interested

 

[Acheron]

Unlike what happens with migrants in europe, mobility between countries is not an issue in latin america.

There are better prospects for migration, like Brazil (I have two brothers and two sisters living there due to economic reasons), but people still decide to come over here despite the bad economy. People do not go to where they are not wanted, and if the narrative that Argentina is hostile to everything that is not white were to be true, people would move elsewhere, since they are not lacking in options.

I know this because I live and interact daily with migrants from all over south america and they are just citizens like everyone else. They are a key part of the social fabric. I'm not saying the don't face any form of discrimination, all migrants do everywhere in the world, but Argentina as a country is extremely welcoming to everyone. Hell, we are having a high influx of Russians looking to escape Putin's dictatorship and they are also very well received.

Here is a video of an arab migrant that has been in argentina for over 11 years: https://x .com/Ana_montesdeoca/status/1794000183036186769/video/1

I quote: "Arab, Indian, Pakistani, life is good for everyone here. There is no racism. This (Argentina) is everyone's home. Everybody is an immigrant."

Again, this thread evidences that we still have a lot to learn. But we are not racists, just ignorant.

Perhaps you're right about being ignorant, but from the countries I've visited in South America it always striked me argentinian's sense of humor always striked me as racist. Also I'm sure they're nice with most tourists but they're also very despective with people from other countries such as Bolivia, they refer to them as bolitas or they will call 'negro' every person who is non white.

 

[NewGlory]

This is because we have a bit of an inferiority complex. Our national narrative is that we are the best at everything (despite evidence pointing at the contrary) and we are always on the defensive when someone criticizes us (even if they are right, like in this case).

Not all of society is like this of course, you can find on the official argentine football subreddits plenty of posts discussing the issue and recognizing that what our players did was wrong and there are no two ways about it.

Bear in mind that our society is heavily influenced by the beliefs and values from spanish and italian culture, and we generally think that racism is something that only americans do with the KKK and policemen killing black folks.

I watch a lot of content on youtube of foreigners visiting the country because we are very cheap and an attractive nightlife destination. Many of those are black, and from those videos you can tell we are not malicious towards black people nor we hate them, we are just ignorant on the do's and dont's.

Regarding our government officials, I am ashamed of having Milei as president and Villaruel as vicepresident. They are some of the most rancid, far-right nutjobs that were elected because during the campaign for president they showed themselves as people capable of fixing our economic situation. Most of the people here voted for this government to fix the economic issues that haunt us since forever, they paid little attention to anything else. But yeah, they are horrible people and hopefully their government doesn't last too long.

It takes a lot of courage, strength, and integrity to be self-critical of your own country, and candid about it. Just wanted to say - respect! Also, thank you. All countries / nations have their own problems, few want to talk when it comes to their own.

 

[Semper Fudge]

Shockingly, the main Chelsea forum doesn't think the song is racist.

 

[Swoobs]

Again, who said the French FA is above criticism?

So they are not above criticism, I criticize them for being hypocrites that they are, problem?

 

[duffer]

Shockingly, the main Chelsea forum doesn't think the song is racist.

There's people who say it is, there's people who say it isn't. Just like this place.

 

[WeePat]

Shockingly, the main Chelsea forum doesn't think the song is racist.

The forum in its entirety? Because there are loads and loads of Chelsea fans on twitter who think it’s racist, there’s sadly also a sizeable group who don’t think it is. Football tribalism being as toxic as it is, football fans will often defend the indefensible if it means not allowing rival fans to get one over them and I don’t think that phenomenon is unique to Chelsea fans unfortunately.

 

[Mutenro]

I have been reading this forum for a long time because I like Man Utd and I like to find out about the team's news, I never registered but I think the occasion is convenient because I read the entire thread on this topic, and as an Argentinian I think I can make them understand a little more about this topic of Enzo Fernández. To begin with, I find the label they are giving to all Argentinians HORRIBLE, saying that we are all racists and that we are backwards, when Argentina is one of the most open and loved countries by the many communities that live here, for that same reason. The reason is that they come to live here, there are communities of Senegalese, Venezuelans, Peruvians, Chinese Neighborhoods, Jews, Arab Community, etc. and they all live together in Peace, there are practically no acts of Racism in the streets and the vast majority live in the Capital. from Buenos Aires, so they interact all the time.

I also tell you that Argentina was one of the first countries in the world to abolish slavery, we became independent in 1810 and in 1813 there was no longer slavery here, there were always few slaves and black people as it was a colony of Spain. , the majority of African slaves came from the Portuguese Colonies (Brazil and northern South America) and England (USA and part of North America), the black race was never eradicated, many emigrated to Uruguay (where there are a greater number of blacks ) and Brazil, and the one that stayed here over time mixed with the "criollos" (original people) and the Spanish, producing that today there are many mestizos.
Do you think that a Racist country has as Proceres (National Heroes) black people like Sergeant Cabral, or that the "Mother of the Country" is a black woman like Maria Remedios del Valle? in fact the latter, her image is CURRENTLY on the "10,000" bill.

Having made this historical introduction, I now tell you about the "Cultural" issue of Argentina, here whenever the word "Black" is used it is never done with discriminatory overtones, but on the contrary, it is said from a place of trust, I know that for It will be difficult for you to understand, but that is why I did the entire historical introduction, Argentina DOES NOT HAVE the history of historical Racism in Europe and North America, you cannot judge us in the same way because it is not the same, here we have a journalist who is "El Negro " Bulos (look him up if you want), that he is black and he presents himself that way, and if you ask him he will tell you that he NEVER saw his nickname as something negative and he NEVER in his life received racism for it, he will tell you that his The nickname was given to him by people who loved him or trusted him, never in a derogatory way, and being Argentine and growing up since he was a child, he knows it.

Enzo Fernandez's song is undeniably offensive, but it is not created from a Racist point of view, it is created from the "Folklore" of Argentine club fans, where offensive songs are made for the Rival, whether it is River against Boca, Racing against Independiente, etc. At no point in the song does it say that the French are black, or that it is bad to be black, or anything like that, they use the word "Angola" just because it rhymes, but it could be any African country, the The intention of the song is to "offend" the French because they take advantage of the virtues and physical advantages that Africans have to play soccer, as a way to touch their pride and make them angry for it, if it is offensive and ridiculous we know it , but it is not Racist from the point of view of the Argentine soccer fan, the error that you point out as a "cover-up" is that it has been made public because many of the countries in Europe have a disastrous history of Racism and have only recently been eradicating it a few decades ago. those behaviors, and since the contexts were different, it could fall badly (which in fact is what ended up happening), Enzo when that song starts playing cuts off Instagram Live immediately, he doesn't even get to sing, if he were truly Racist he wouldn't care and I wouldn't have cut it, I would have continued and sung it in full.

In Conclusion, is the song bad? YES, IT IS VERY OFFENSIVE

Is the song racist? NO, AT ALL, IT WAS NEVER CREATED WITH THAT PURPOSE

I ask that when doing an analysis, you put yourself in the cultural contexts of the countries of origin, because if you analyze it from the cultural context of your own country you are going in the wrong place, the historical origin is different in all cases.

I hope you publish my message, I did not come to generate debate, just to give a different point of view

 

[André Dominguez]

Pretty sure if somebody made a chant insulting the Argentina players moms and justify that this song is only to irritate them, I'm sure there would be a major meltdown all over the Argentina's press and media.

 

[duffer]

I hope you publish my message, I did not come to generate debate, just to give a different point of view

I regret to inform you, I shall not be publishing your message. Maybe someone else will.

 

[Ramos]

Pretty sure if somebody made a chant insulting the Argentina players moms and justify that this song is only to irritate them, I'm sure there would be a major meltdown all over the Argentina's press and media.

Yeah, apparently the song was in part a response to the French singing something about Kante stopping Messi when they celebrated their WC win in 2018.

If they got upset about that, imagine a song ridiculing their origins or insinuating stuff about certain players' sex life. Would go over nicely i'm sure.

 

[André Dominguez]

It's been funny to read people trying to defend a dead man walking.

 

[Mutenro]

Pretty sure if somebody made a chant insulting the Argentina players moms and justify that this song is only to irritate them, I'm sure there would be a major meltdown all over the Argentina's press and media.

You're mixing things up, what does insulting mothers have to do with all this? If you want a more accurate example, when Germany won the 2014 World Cup Final against Argentina, they made a mocking song that said "The Germans walk like this (standing upright) and the Gauchos (derogatory way towards Argentines) walk like this." : (crouching down, imitating monkeys), obviously caused rejection, but no one came out to cry or demand sanctions against teams or federations, it was understood as part of the game and mockery, not as Racism (which in this case is much more serious and I explain that the song by Enzo Fernandez)

 

[antohan]

Perhaps you're right about being ignorant, but from the countries I've visited in South America it always striked me argentinian's sense of humor always striked me as racist. Also I'm sure they're nice with most tourists but they're also very despective with people from other countries such as Bolivia, they refer to them as bolitas or they will call 'negro' every person who is non white.

Everything you are saying is true. I mentioned earlier they are far more "racist" towards fellow South Americans than black people.

Much like many people don't get British sarcasm, it is hard to see through their sense of humour which is primarily based on putting other people down with derogatory remarks.

I say "racist" because anywhere in the world you would call it that. As @Just Hope alludes to, that's borne in a feeling of superiority, which a European would immediately interpret as white supremacist bigotry, but is in fact just plain arrogance.

The redeeming factor is they absolutely own their arrogance. They will happily agree that when they go to Church they start their prayer saying "Dear Son". They will also agree it is bonkers, but that's who they are. Now, if you go one step further and call it racism they will protest against that.

Of course there are outliers. As in any other country, you will find racist snobs who actually mean those derogatory remarks, and you will also find recalcitrant working class people upset at their jobs or working conditions being threatened by those South American economic migrants (accepting lower wages, working harder or longer hours, etc). Same shit I used to witness in the UK with Polish people, to use a white on white example.

For most peoole though, there's no real animosity attached to it whatsoever (but yes, I know, most of you would still call it racism because it overlooks how the recipient feels about them jokes).

It's the sort of thing that always gets lost in this radicalised world. It is important whether someone is actually racist, or acts in such a way inadvertently or through lack of awareness or not knowing better. You are never going to change the former, nor will you change the latter acting like a rabid pack of wolves. Nobody seems willing to take the time to hear out the alternative viewpoint and find common ground, its just pitchforks out, black or white and, most important, congratulating oneself for "winning the argument". And so we carry on getting nowhere.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Enzo Fernandez's song is undeniably offensive, but it is not created from a Racist point of view, it is created from the "Folklore" of Argentine club fans, where offensive songs are made for the Rival, whether it is River against Boca, Racing against Independiente, etc. At no point in the song does it say that the French are black, or that it is bad to be black, or anything like that, they use the word "Angola" just because it rhymes, but it could be any African country, the The intention of the song is to "offend" the French because they take advantage of the virtues and physical advantages that Africans have to play soccer, as a way to touch their pride and make them angry for it, if it is offensive and ridiculous we know it , but it is not Racist from the point of view of the Argentine soccer fan, the error that you point out as a "cover-up" is that it has been made public because many of the countries in Europe have a disastrous history of Racism and have only recently been eradicating it a few decades ago. those behaviors, and since the contexts were different, it could fall badly (which in fact is what ended up happening), Enzo when that song starts playing cuts off Instagram Live immediately, he doesn't even get to sing, if he were truly Racist he wouldn't care and I wouldn't have cut it, I would have continued and sung it in full.

In Conclusion, is the song bad? YES, IT IS VERY OFFENSIVE

Is the song racist? NO, AT ALL, IT WAS NEVER CREATED WITH THAT PURPOSE

Why would it 'touch their pride'?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

"The intention of the song is to offend the French because they take advantage of the virtues and physical advantages that Africans have to play soccer, as a way to touch their pride."

The problem begins here.

The players in the French NT are almost exclusively born and raised in France. One or two of their parents might be immigrants, most of whom moved to France for reasons completely unrelated to football. They had children and some of those children, who are French citizens, might end up playing football. France is not "taking advantage" of anything because these are just citizens of their country. They are not nationalizing random people to win titles. The entire premise is false. It is only true if you start making false assumptions about the players based on their skin color.

This is without getting into the 'virtues and physical advantages' of Africans. You mention in your post that Argentina has 'Chinese neighborhoods' and 'Jews.' Imagine if I said "if Argentina wants their economy to really blossom they need to take advantage of their Chinese and Jews since they know how to count real good and are great with money." Would you not perceive that as 'racist'?

 

[Acrobat7]

I have been reading this forum for a long time because I like Man Utd and I like to find out about the team's news, I never registered but I think the occasion is convenient because I read the entire thread on this topic, and as an Argentinian I think I can make them understand a little more about this topic of Enzo Fernández. To begin with, I find the label they are giving to all Argentinians HORRIBLE, saying that we are all racists and that we are backwards, when Argentina is one of the most open and loved countries by the many communities that live here, for that same reason. The reason is that they come to live here, there are communities of Senegalese, Venezuelans, Peruvians, Chinese Neighborhoods, Jews, Arab Community, etc. and they all live together in Peace, there are practically no acts of Racism in the streets and the vast majority live in the Capital. from Buenos Aires, so they interact all the time.

I also tell you that Argentina was one of the first countries in the world to abolish slavery, we became independent in 1810 and in 1813 there was no longer slavery here, there were always few slaves and black people as it was a colony of Spain. , the majority of African slaves came from the Portuguese Colonies (Brazil and northern South America) and England (USA and part of North America), the black race was never eradicated, many emigrated to Uruguay (where there are a greater number of blacks ) and Brazil, and the one that stayed here over time mixed with the "criollos" (original people) and the Spanish, producing that today there are many mestizos.
Do you think that a Racist country has as Proceres (National Heroes) black people like Sergeant Cabral, or that the "Mother of the Country" is a black woman like Maria Remedios del Valle? in fact the latter, her image is CURRENTLY on the "10,000" bill.

Having made this historical introduction, I now tell you about the "Cultural" issue of Argentina, here whenever the word "Black" is used it is never done with discriminatory overtones, but on the contrary, it is said from a place of trust, I know that for It will be difficult for you to understand, but that is why I did the entire historical introduction, Argentina DOES NOT HAVE the history of historical Racism in Europe and North America, you cannot judge us in the same way because it is not the same, here we have a journalist who is "El Negro " Bulos (look him up if you want), that he is black and he presents himself that way, and if you ask him he will tell you that he NEVER saw his nickname as something negative and he NEVER in his life received racism for it, he will tell you that his The nickname was given to him by people who loved him or trusted him, never in a derogatory way, and being Argentine and growing up since he was a child, he knows it.

Enzo Fernandez's song is undeniably offensive, but it is not created from a Racist point of view, it is created from the "Folklore" of Argentine club fans, where offensive songs are made for the Rival, whether it is River against Boca, Racing against Independiente, etc. At no point in the song does it say that the French are black, or that it is bad to be black, or anything like that, they use the word "Angola" just because it rhymes, but it could be any African country, the The intention of the song is to "offend" the French because they take advantage of the virtues and physical advantages that Africans have to play soccer, as a way to touch their pride and make them angry for it, if it is offensive and ridiculous we know it , but it is not Racist from the point of view of the Argentine soccer fan, the error that you point out as a "cover-up" is that it has been made public because many of the countries in Europe have a disastrous history of Racism and have only recently been eradicating it a few decades ago. those behaviors, and since the contexts were different, it could fall badly (which in fact is what ended up happening), Enzo when that song starts playing cuts off Instagram Live immediately, he doesn't even get to sing, if he were truly Racist he wouldn't care and I wouldn't have cut it, I would have continued and sung it in full.

In Conclusion, is the song bad? YES, IT IS VERY OFFENSIVE

Is the song racist? NO, AT ALL, IT WAS NEVER CREATED WITH THAT PURPOSE

I ask that when doing an analysis, you put yourself in the cultural contexts of the countries of origin, because if you analyze it from the cultural context of your own country you are going in the wrong place, the historical origin is different in all cases.

I hope you publish my message, I did not come to generate debate, just to give a different point of view

Tl;dr

Of course the fecking song is racist!

 

[Acheron]

Everything you are saying is true. I mentioned earlier they are far more "racist" towards fellow South Americans than black people.

Much like many people don't get British sarcasm, it is hard to see through their sense of humour which is primarily based on putting other people down with derogatory remarks.

I say "racist" because anywhere in the world you would call it that. As @Just Hope alludes to, that's borne in a feeling of superiority, which a European would immediately interpret as white supremacist bigotry, but is in fact just plain arrogance.

The redeeming factor is they absolutely own their arrogance. They will happily agree that when they go to Church they start their prayer saying "Dear Son". They will also agree it is bonkers, but that's who they are. Now, if you go one step further and call it racism they will protest against that.

Of course there are outliers. As in any other country, you will find racist snobs who actually mean those derogatory remarks, and you will also find recalcitrant working class people upset at their jobs or working conditions being threatened by those South American economic migrants (accepting lower wages, working harder or longer hours, etc). Same shit I used to witness in the UK with Polish people, to use a white on white example.

For most peoole though, there's no real animosity attached to it whatsoever (but yes, I know, most of you would still call it racism because it overlooks how the recipient feels about them jokes).

It's the sort of thing that always gets lost in this radicalised world. It is important whether someone is actually racist, or acts in such a way inadvertently or through lack of awareness or not knowing better. You are never going to change the former, nor will you change the latter acting like a rabid pack of wolves. Nobody seems willing to take the time to hear out the alternative viewpoint and find common ground, its just pitchforks out, black or white and, most important, congratulating oneself for "winning the argument". And so we carry on getting nowhere.

I agree with your assesment specially with the part of radicalising everything.

 

[RoyH1]

"The intention of the song is to offend the French because they take advantage of the virtues and physical advantages that Africans have to play soccer, as a way to touch their pride."

The problem begins here.

The players in the French NT are almost exclusively born and raised in France. One or two of their parents might be immigrants, most of whom moved to France for reasons completely unrelated to football. They had children and some of those children, who are French citizens, might end up playing football. France is not "taking advantage" of anything because these are just citizens of their country. They are not nationalizing random people to win titles. The entire premise is false. It is only true if you start making false assumptions about the players based on their skin color.

This is without getting into the 'virtues and physical advantages' of Africans. You mention in your post that Argentina has 'Chinese neighborhoods' and 'Jews.' Imagine if I said "if Argentina wants their economy to really blossom they need to take advantage of their Chinese and Jews since they know how to count real good and are great with money." Would you not perceive that as 'racist'?

And that's really all that needs to be said. Those young men grew up in France, played as children/teenagers in local clubs there and grew up in the French football culture. Where their parents/grandparents come from is irrelevant.

 

[JPRouve]

I have been reading this forum for a long time because I like Man Utd and I like to find out about the team's news, I never registered but I think the occasion is convenient because I read the entire thread on this topic, and as an Argentinian I think I can make them understand a little more about this topic of Enzo Fernández. To begin with, I find the label they are giving to all Argentinians HORRIBLE, saying that we are all racists and that we are backwards, when Argentina is one of the most open and loved countries by the many communities that live here, for that same reason. The reason is that they come to live here, there are communities of Senegalese, Venezuelans, Peruvians, Chinese Neighborhoods, Jews, Arab Community, etc. and they all live together in Peace, there are practically no acts of Racism in the streets and the vast majority live in the Capital. from Buenos Aires, so they interact all the time.

I also tell you that Argentina was one of the first countries in the world to abolish slavery, we became independent in 1810 and in 1813 there was no longer slavery here, there were always few slaves and black people as it was a colony of Spain. , the majority of African slaves came from the Portuguese Colonies (Brazil and northern South America) and England (USA and part of North America), the black race was never eradicated, many emigrated to Uruguay (where there are a greater number of blacks ) and Brazil, and the one that stayed here over time mixed with the "criollos" (original people) and the Spanish, producing that today there are many mestizos.
Do you think that a Racist country has as Proceres (National Heroes) black people like Sergeant Cabral, or that the "Mother of the Country" is a black woman like Maria Remedios del Valle? in fact the latter, her image is CURRENTLY on the "10,000" bill.

Having made this historical introduction, I now tell you about the "Cultural" issue of Argentina, here whenever the word "Black" is used it is never done with discriminatory overtones, but on the contrary, it is said from a place of trust, I know that for It will be difficult for you to understand, but that is why I did the entire historical introduction, Argentina DOES NOT HAVE the history of historical Racism in Europe and North America, you cannot judge us in the same way because it is not the same, here we have a journalist who is "El Negro " Bulos (look him up if you want), that he is black and he presents himself that way, and if you ask him he will tell you that he NEVER saw his nickname as something negative and he NEVER in his life received racism for it, he will tell you that his The nickname was given to him by people who loved him or trusted him, never in a derogatory way, and being Argentine and growing up since he was a child, he knows it.

Enzo Fernandez's song is undeniably offensive, but it is not created from a Racist point of view, it is created from the "Folklore" of Argentine club fans, where offensive songs are made for the Rival, whether it is River against Boca, Racing against Independiente, etc. At no point in the song does it say that the French are black, or that it is bad to be black, or anything like that, they use the word "Angola" just because it rhymes, but it could be any African country, the The intention of the song is to "offend" the French because they take advantage of the virtues and physical advantages that Africans have to play soccer, as a way to touch their pride and make them angry for it, if it is offensive and ridiculous we know it , but it is not Racist from the point of view of the Argentine soccer fan, the error that you point out as a "cover-up" is that it has been made public because many of the countries in Europe have a disastrous history of Racism and have only recently been eradicating it a few decades ago. those behaviors, and since the contexts were different, it could fall badly (which in fact is what ended up happening), Enzo when that song starts playing cuts off Instagram Live immediately, he doesn't even get to sing, if he were truly Racist he wouldn't care and I wouldn't have cut it, I would have continued and sung it in full.

In Conclusion, is the song bad? YES, IT IS VERY OFFENSIVE

Is the song racist? NO, AT ALL, IT WAS NEVER CREATED WITH THAT PURPOSE

I ask that when doing an analysis, you put yourself in the cultural contexts of the countries of origin, because if you analyze it from the cultural context of your own country you are going in the wrong place, the historical origin is different in all cases.

I hope you publish my message, I did not come to generate debate, just to give a different point of view

Why is the song very offensive?