Argentina players singing racist chant targeting French players after Copa America final

[JBG]

That statement was kinda ok(not really).

"It's just a chant that got stuck and is more of a mocking tone than anything else. But, as I said, you have to be very careful.

But that part just made it worse. Like I kinda understand they're(the Argentinaen players) thinking. But it just doesn't help them at all... that song was stupid as feck.

 

[mk7]

Crazy how many Argentinians are doubling down.

"It's not racist because it's true" ...

Just because it is not understood to be racism it still is racist in every sense of the word. The mental gymnastics to try to explain this away as something of a national quirk is simply a sight to behold. The MacAllister bit sounds like "You can be your true self in Europe. They are a bit sensitive around here." And sorry, most footballers are ignorant pricks specialized in an activity we all hold so dear that they not only earn more than most in several generations, they also get the feeling of not needing to adhere to regular social norms.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Calling the song stupid is trivialising it. Its racist and that statement from Mac Allister illustrates his and his teammates utter ignorance on the matter.

Again, they were disappointed that the song was caught on film but not the horrible racist song itself.

 

[africanspur]

Not worse than the daily racism Maghrebi French face in France, Turkish Germans face in Germany etc., to their own people with citizenship. Don't get me started about the racism that exists in most other European countries.

Interestingly, I have not seen any uproars about above.. mind-blowing to see people here trying to lecture Argentina for a song as if if daily racism, structural racism which is way worse is not still a big thing in their nations.

You wonder why there's not uproar on racism against Maghrebis in a thread about Argentinian players chanting songs about France. Really?

 

[Mike Smalling]

It would be ridiculously easy to just say “We were in the wrong, we apologize, it won’t happen again”. They don’t even have to mean it. But their ignorance and pride won’t allow it. What a bunch of tits.

 

[JPRouve]

You wonder why there's not uproar on racism against Maghrebis in a thread about Argentinian players chanting songs about France. Really?

He would be even more surprised to know that they are also one of the most likely source of racism in France.

 

[africanspur]

Made up data.

Re: stopped filming vs happened. My view is it leverages hate speech so the big problem really would be to air it publicly. What people did or didn't do in private is none of my, your, or Fofana's business really.

The distinction between private and public domain is at the foundation of healthy societies.

Made up data how?

Also I'm not sure there's any societies in which you have complete separation between the public and private domain. In so much as what you do in private can and will be monitored and acted on by governments.

Not to mention of course that live streaming is not exactly the peak of keeping things private is it?

 

[africanspur]

He would be even more surprised to know that they are also one of the most likely source of racism in France.

Or at least would be if they had any genuine desire to talk about the topic and not just bat away conversation.

 

[duffer]

It would be ridiculously easy to just say “We were in the wrong, we apologize, it won’t happen again”. They don’t even have to mean it. But their ignorance and pride won’t allow it. What a bunch of tits.

Enzo's public apology was:
"“I stand against discrimination in all forms and apologise for getting caught up in the euphoria of our Copa America celebrations. That video, that moment, those words, do not reflect my beliefs or my character. I am truly sorry.”

He obviously didn't write it (the dude barely speaks English, I aint having that he wrote "caught up in the euphoria") but it's about as good as you're going to get in terms of a public apology.

 

[Changeisgood]

You wonder why there's not uproar on racism against Maghrebis in a thread about Argentinian players chanting songs about France. Really?

In general, when people deflect to another event, it is because they cannot really argue on the original event in question. It is an effective way of trying to shift the blame and not deal with it. It doesn't fool everyone of course.

The way Argentina is dealing with this is even more worrisome than the singing of a racist song.

The VP coming out in defense of the player
The one Argentinian authority getting fired for asking Messi and the team to apologize.
The silence of Argentinian leadership, including Messi.and Scaloni
The lack of sincerity from the apologies out there
The previous Argentinian greats minimizing the event
The fact they have already sang thus multiple times
The endless deflections, and they are as numerous as they are ridiculous.

Most of all, this constant reminder from every Argentinian that there is no racism in Argentina.

If you do not admit there is a problem, you will obviously never address it.

 

[JPRouve]

Enzo's public apology was:
"“I stand against discrimination in all forms and apologise for getting caught up in the euphoria of our Copa America celebrations. That video, that moment, those words, do not reflect my beliefs or my character. I am truly sorry.”

He obviously didn't write it (the dude barely speaks English, I aint having that he wrote "caught up in the euphoria") but it's about as good as you're going to get in terms of a public apology.

The reason it isn't good is because we know that they were singing it in 2022. Truth be told, they put themselves in a situation where they shouldn't write any apology that goes further than "I'm sorry and it won't happen again". Anything else is a proven lie.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Enzo's public apology was:
"“I stand against discrimination in all forms and apologise for getting caught up in the euphoria of our Copa America celebrations. That video, that moment, those words, do not reflect my beliefs or my character. I am truly sorry.”

He obviously didn't write it (the dude barely speaks English, I aint having that he wrote "caught up in the euphoria") but it's about as good as you're going to get in terms of a public apology.

Yeah, that seems fine as far as public communication goes. I was more referring to all the others that come out with explanations or excuses.

 

[duffer]

Yeah, that seems fine as far as public communication goes. I was more referring to all the others that come out with explanations or excuses.

Most of them (the Argentine players who were singing along on the bus) are keeping their heads down. I think it's only 2 players who have said anything.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I made this point a few months ago in a Spanish football racism thread, but a lot of people think racism means "being a full-fledged KKK member" so when they get accused of racism they get very defensive. I am sure when MacAllister, Mascherano, etc. say they are 'not a racist country' what they mean is Argentinians don't have an extreme hate for other races, which is true.

 

[moses]

Not worse than the daily racism Maghrebi French face in France, Turkish Germans face in Germany etc., to their own people with citizenship. Don't get me started about the racism that exists in most other European countries.

Interestingly, I have not seen any uproars about above.. mind-blowing to see people here trying to lecture Argentina for a song as if if daily racism, structural racism which is way worse is not still a big thing in their nations.

This line of argument is becoming the norm of the caf, ie nobody can have standards because somebody somewhere doesn't have standards. Tedious. And telling.

 

[Florida Man]

Calling the song stupid is trivialising it. Its racist and that statement from Mac Allister illustrates his and his teammates utter ignorance on the matter.

Again, they were disappointed that the song was caught on film but not the horrible racist song itself.

Justice for MacAllister shirts incoming

 

[NewGlory]

They just keep digging themselves deeper and deeper into a hole with each comment,. Not the brightest bunch, these Argentinians.

The follow-ups are as bad as the original, indeed

"We are not racist, we doubt we would beat up a black kid on the street, we just say horrible things and then when people get pissed, tell them they are too sensitive..."

For feck's sake - shut the feck up, morons!

 

[Real Name]

Reminds me of a friend who sent a message in a whatsapp group which went something in the sense of - I'm not racist but French team has just one white guy.

Yeah, you're not a racist, you just noticed.

 

[Just Hope]

They just keep digging themselves deeper and deeper into a hole with each comment,. Not the brightest bunch, these Argentinians.

Like I've been posting throughout this topic. We are a poor nation with a poor education system and a society that hasn't gonne through the historical processes of a multiracial society.

Most of the guys in that bus barely finished highschool and they did it only to keep playing football. And this is a rather modern development, a couple of years back players only completed primary school, like Riquelme.

Hopefully this will turn out to be a learning opportunity for them once they stop being so defensive and realize their mistake. After Griezzmann did a blackface he apologized and went on to win the 2018 world cup in a team full of black players. There is no harmful intent behind the chant, they are just idiots.

 

[Florida Man]

Reminds me of a friend who sent a message in a whatsapp group which went something in the sense of - I'm not racist but French team has just one white guy.

Yeah, you're not a racist, you just noticed.

The white guy:

 

[JPRouve]

Reminds me of a friend who sent a message in a whatsapp group which went something in the sense of - I'm not racist but French team has just one white guy.

Yeah, you're not a racist, you just noticed.

To be fair, if you go beyond surface level there is an interesting conversation about it. Because it's not true for all sports, now I kind of know why, it's due to where sports are primarily played in France and where the best youth systems are located and have the ability to attract the best athletes. For Football it's Iles-De-France which is where the vast majority of african immigrants are, for other sports it can be Marseille, Tours, Montpellier, Toulouse, Lyon, Grenoble and the demographic will be different.

 

[Changeisgood]

Like I've been posting throughout this topic. We are a poor nation with a poor education system and a society that hasn't gonne through the historical processes of a multiracial society.

Most of the guys in that bus barely finished highschool and they did it only to keep playing football. And this is a rather modern development, a couple of years back players only completed primary school, like Riquelme.

Hopefully this will turn out to be a learning opportunity for them once they stop being so defensive and realize their mistake. After Griezzmann did a blackface he apologized and went on to win the 2018 world cup in a team full of black players. There is no harmful intent behind the chant, they are just idiots.

I definitely see where this is coming from. It wasn't maybe made with intent because they are just idiots who haven't had the education and life training to match the money and physical training. I tend to agree. I look at players like E Martinez and Fernandez and I dont sense there is a whole lot for brains in there.

I am already over Fernandez and his mates but I am not ok with where Argentina as a country seems to be on this. Their reaction for me is the most worrisome. It's precisely what I do not want to see. I cannot believe they fired the one person who asking for corrective action. (Undersecretary of sport)...For me that sends the worst possible signal, probably even worse than the VP coming to some strange misguided defence of the players.

 

[Just Hope]

I definitely see where this is coming from. It wasn't maybe made with intent because they are just idiots who haven't had the education and life training to match the money and physical training. I tend to agree. I look at players like E Martinez and Fernandez and I dont sense there is a whole lot for brains in there.

I am already over Fernandez and his mates but I am not ok with where Argentina as a country seems to be on this. Their reaction for me is the most worrisome. It's precisely what I do not want to see. I cannot believe they fired the one person who asking for corrective action. (Undersecretary of sport)...For me that sends the worst possible signal, probably even worse than the VP coming to some strange misguided defence of the players.

This is because we have a bit of an inferiority complex. Our national narrative is that we are the best at everything (despite evidence pointing at the contrary) and we are always on the defensive when someone criticizes us (even if they are right, like in this case).

Not all of society is like this of course, you can find on the official argentine football subreddits plenty of posts discussing the issue and recognizing that what our players did was wrong and there are no two ways about it.

Bear in mind that our society is heavily influenced by the beliefs and values from spanish and italian culture, and we generally think that racism is something that only americans do with the KKK and policemen killing black folks.

I watch a lot of content on youtube of foreigners visiting the country because we are very cheap and an attractive nightlife destination. Many of those are black, and from those videos you can tell we are not malicious towards black people nor we hate them, we are just ignorant on the do's and dont's.

Regarding our government officials, I am ashamed of having Milei as president and Villaruel as vicepresident. They are some of the most rancid, far-right nutjobs that were elected because during the campaign for president they showed themselves as people capable of fixing our economic situation. Most of the people here voted for this government to fix the economic issues that haunt us since forever, they paid little attention to anything else. But yeah, they are horrible people and hopefully their government doesn't last too long.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Argentinian players continue to cover themselves in glory with their great takes.

 

[Fridge chutney]

They're pretty racist against people who come from other south American countries like Bolivia, Paraguay, Venezuela, etc.

For them it might pretty normal or just banter for them because is something very common that they say very lightly.

I was just about to make this point. It is shameless, endemic, and i saw it first hand. It was shocking and horrible.

 

[Just Hope]

They're pretty racist against people who come from other south American countries like Bolivia, Paraguay, Venezuela, etc.

For them it might pretty normal or just banter for them because is something very common that they say very lightly.

This goes against factual evidence. Argentina holds the greatest diaspora of bolivians, paraguayans and only behind colombia for venezuelans (While in chile people organize rallies to expell venezuelans, for example: https://www.pagina12.com.ar/370961-la-fiscalia-de-chile-ordeno-investigar-una-violenta-protesta, and so does colombia: https://elpais.com/internacional/2019/11/28/colombia/1574950508_526097.html).

Hell, we even protested in 2017 when Macri's goverment tried to incorporate an anti-immigration law: https://latamnews.lat/20170207/argentina-protestas-migracion-1066782606.html

They are also given citizenship without too much of a hassle and are easily incorporated to society. The same happens with Chinese migrants. We also hold the largest jewish diaspora in south america and the fifth largest in the world and anyone who has taken the subway in buenos aires or visited a public hospital knows it is full of brazilians studying to become doctors.

Don't get me wrong, we as a society still have a lot of learning to do. But I take objection to the way we are being portrayed in this thread as some sort of haven for racism and xenophobia, like we are all nazis, which is very far from the truth.

 

[diarm]

It would be very interesting to hear his thoughts when he's not "being careful with what he says".

 

[John XII]

I think you misunderstood what I was getting at, the scope of our discussion was 19th century onwards where for the most part intranational ethnic strife at least as it pertained to western Europe was limited not that internation rivalry and war of domination ceased to exist.

19th century saw a period of relative peace after the concert of Europe, the more major wars afterwards were the wars of Italian unification and the Franco prussian war, as it relates to the 20th century nazi germany it saw the eradication of European Jewish population from a significant percentage of the population in countries like Germany and Poland to almost nonexistent with the survivors mostly moving abroad so seeing how the European Jewish population undergone major growth in the previous century and their newly granted rights and them starting to hold more visible roles in the society it does not negate the hypothesis that I put forward, if anything it confirms it.

El andulus also basically ended with the total decimation of the Muslim population from the iberian peninsula though it surely left some long lasting genetic impact but all in all not the best example to go about.

Edit: kinda forgot about Austro Hungarian empire, the tensions inside led to some very undesirable results at the start of the 20th century to say the least.

You mean the 19th century where the Napoleonic and Crimean wars happened?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

This goes against factual evidence. Argentina holds the greatest diaspora of bolivians, paraguayans and only behind colombia for venezuelans (While in chile people organize rallies to expell venezuelans, for example: https://www.pagina12.com.ar/370961-la-fiscalia-de-chile-ordeno-investigar-una-violenta-protesta, and so does colombia: https://elpais.com/internacional/2019/11/28/colombia/1574950508_526097.html).

What's the source of that claim? Wikipedia lists Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, U.S.A., Chile, Spain, and Brazil all ahead of Argentina.

 

[diarm]

Sorry for not consulting Wikipedia to form an opinion on the history of a country I know very well. The % looked off as a representation of Argentina and indeed they were.

I don't think you know the country as well as you think you do Anto. Or if you do, it's through a lens you need to step back and reflect upon a bit.

If you don't want Wikipedia, try this on for size: https://read.dukeupress.edu/hahr/ar...The-Afro-Argentines-of-Buenos-Aires-1800-1900

This wasn't just a few minimal, irrelevant or far flung northern territories as you've suggested. The idea that you can essentially kill off an entire race of people from a country and then claim you don't have a racism problem in that country is disgusting. That intelligent people like yourself from neighbouring countries would support and defend such a claim is really disappointing.

 

[Just Hope]

What's the source of that claim? Wikipedia lists Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, U.S.A., Chile, Spain, and Brazil all ahead of Argentina.

Misinterpreted the picture from this webpage that was produced by the Organization for International Immigration:http://vox.lacea.org/?q=blog/diaspora_venezuela_migration.

The data I was referring was from 2015. It makes sense it has dropped recently since our economy is in the gutter and venezuelans are mostly economic migrants.

 

[RedC]

This goes against factual evidence. Argentina holds the greatest diaspora of bolivians, paraguayans and only behind colombia for venezuelans (While in chile people organize rallies to expell venezuelans, for example: https://www.pagina12.com.ar/370961-la-fiscalia-de-chile-ordeno-investigar-una-violenta-protesta, and so does colombia: https://elpais.com/internacional/2019/11/28/colombia/1574950508_526097.html).

Hell, we even protested in 2017 when Macri's goverment tried to incorporate an anti-immigration law: https://latamnews.lat/20170207/argentina-protestas-migracion-1066782606.html

They are also given citizenship without too much of a hassle and are easily incorporated to society. The same happens with Chinese migrants. We also hold the largest jewish diaspora in south america and the fifth largest in the world and anyone who has taken the subway in buenos aires or visited a public hospital knows it is full of brazilians studying to become doctors.

Don't get me wrong, we as a society still have a lot of learning to do. But I take objection to the way we are being portrayed in this thread as some sort of haven for racism and xenophobia, like we are all nazis, which is very far from the truth.

Is citing immigration demographics really factual proof against racism issues? People have moved to countries where they experience racism since the beginning of time.

 

[Just Hope]

Is citing immigration demographics really factual proof against racism issues? People have moved to countries where they experience racism since the beginning of time.

Unlike what happens with migrants in europe, mobility between countries is not an issue in latin america.

There are better prospects for migration, like Brazil (I have two brothers and two sisters living there due to economic reasons), but people still decide to come over here despite the bad economy. People do not go to where they are not wanted, and if the narrative that Argentina is hostile to everything that is not white were to be true, people would move elsewhere, since they are not lacking in options.

I know this because I live and interact daily with migrants from all over south america and they are just citizens like everyone else. They are a key part of the social fabric. I'm not saying the don't face any form of discrimination, all migrants do everywhere in the world, but Argentina as a country is extremely welcoming to everyone. Hell, we are having a high influx of Russians looking to escape Putin's dictatorship and they are also very well received.

Here is a video of an arab migrant that has been in argentina for over 11 years: https://x .com/Ana_montesdeoca/status/1794000183036186769/video/1

I quote: "Arab, Indian, Pakistani, life is good for everyone here. There is no racism. This (Argentina) is everyone's home. Everybody is an immigrant."

Again, this thread evidences that we still have a lot to learn. But we are not racists, just ignorant.

I have travelled a little around Latin America and although i met only very few of your countrymen, I find the opinion others hold of Argentines is that they have a feeling of superiority over other Latin Americans. It's interesting to hear that you feel the country has an inferiority complex.... Is it an inferiority vis a vis the West?

It is just a case of the most insecure one being the loudest, honestly.

 

[Changeisgood]

This is because we have a bit of an inferiority complex. Our national narrative is that we are the best at everything (despite evidence pointing at the contrary) and we are always on the defensive when someone criticizes us (even if they are right, like in this case).

Not all of society is like this of course, you can find on the official argentine football subreddits plenty of posts discussing the issue and recognizing that what our players did was wrong and there are no two ways about it.

Bear in mind that our society is heavily influenced by the beliefs and values from spanish and italian culture, and we generally think that racism is something that only americans do with the KKK and policemen killing black folks.

I watch a lot of content on youtube of foreigners visiting the country because we are very cheap and an attractive nightlife destination. Many of those are black, and from those videos you can tell we are not malicious towards black people nor we hate them, we are just ignorant on the do's and dont's.

Regarding our government officials, I am ashamed of having Milei as president and Villaruel as vicepresident. They are some of the most rancid, far-right nutjobs that were elected because during the campaign for president they showed themselves as people capable of fixing our economic situation. Most of the people here voted for this government to fix the economic issues that haunt us since forever, they paid little attention to anything else. But yeah, they are horrible people and hopefully their government doesn't last too long.

It definitely feels like it is a bit of jumping on the bandwagon stuff as indeed probably this incident was as well. As for the movement towards the far right, it is something Argentina has struggled with throughout their history which further makes me believe they do not yet have the willingness to move towards a more social conscious path. Hopefully, as you said there is an internal change brewing. At a time when politicians are increasingly grabbing the mic to spread around their "wisdom and morality", the Argentine leadership has provided a very poor platform that says it's ok to sing racist songs. I also criticize Messi btw, who as a demi-god over there could have set things straight. I believe he has more power to convey the message with the regular folks than the government. Instead, we see half arsed messages from other players that fail to address or subside anything...We really just needed one message from him that hit the right notes. He failed in his opportunity to shine here and make himself this amazing ambassador of the sport. Shame for me, because I really live Messi as a player.

Argentina are certainly not alone in drifting further towards the far-right. Even the country they are addressing in the song has seen a slow steady shift. And the racist chants made by the Argentinian players would be typical ones echoed by the racists on the far right in France. So again for us Westerners it looks like obvious racism (and it is). It has an even worse context over there because there can be no excuse for a Frenchman saying it. (Even though there little of one here...the players really should be aware!)

I have travelled a little around Latin America and although i met only very few of your countrymen, I find the opinion others hold of Argentines is that they have a feeling of superiority over other Latin Americans. It's interesting to hear that you feel the country has an inferiority complex.... Is it an inferiority vis a vis the West?

 

[lexisonfire]

Reminds me of a friend who sent a message in a whatsapp group which went something in the sense of - I'm not racist but French team has just one white guy.

Winning a World Cup or Euros is mainly a credit to the football academies of winning country and is a testament to their hard work and ability to produce top talent, regardless if the players are black, white, brown, yellow, green. The fact that an impoverished child refugee like Camavinga can enter a French academy and get high quality training to become a 19yo millionaire who plays for Real Madrid shows that France's football academies aren't just top-tier, they also have almost no barrier to entry unlike other sports/arts domains which charge exorbitant fees and are able to polish any talented kid into a star. The hard work, non-prejudice, non-classism of those in the football system is why France deserved to win the World Cup, focusing on skin color misses this point which deserves to be celebrated.

African politicians also find it hard to admit that it's not about the race of those who win but about the academies and infrastructure provided to kids of all backgrounds which is why African countries don't have the means to compete. There are too few countries where kids from the lowest echleons of society are allowed to participate without financial barriers and obtain world-class training as any other middle-upper class child... Even in multicultural countries like USA soccer is pay-to-play which is a shame.

 

[Swoobs]

Yup, the same French national team which had players being racist towards the Japanese in 2021 (Dembele and Griezmann), especially if "ching chong" were indeed used.

Not excusing the Enzo but pot calling kettle. What was the french FA responses back in 2019?

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/42...dembele-apologise-for-japan-videos-from-2019/

Humans...its bad unless I am the one doing it

 

[roseguy64]

In general, when people deflect to another event, it is because they cannot really argue on the original event in question. It is an effective way of trying to shift the blame and not deal with it. It doesn't fool everyone of course.

The way Argentina is dealing with this is even more worrisome than the singing of a racist song.

The VP coming out in defense of the player
The one Argentinian authority getting fired for asking Messi and the team to apologize.
The silence of Argentinian leadership, including Messi.and Scaloni
The lack of sincerity from the apologies out there
The previous Argentinian greats minimizing the event
The fact they have already sang thus multiple times
The endless deflections, and they are as numerous as they are ridiculous.

Most of all, this constant reminder from every Argentinian that there is no racism in Argentina.

If you do not admit there is a problem, you will obviously never address it.

And they're only saying this because the country was so racist in the past that they accomplished their goals of wiping out the vast majority of a minority. So they don't have to worry about empathy or people who don't look like them.

 

[roseguy64]

The follow-ups are as bad as the original, indeed

"We are not racist, we doubt we would beat up a black kid on the street, we just say horrible things and then when people get pissed, tell them they are too sensitive..."

For feck's sake - shut the feck up, morons!

Exactly. They have a warped view of what racism is. Their only scope is the extreme version seen with lynchings, KKK stuff and police beating on protesters. It's so much more.

 

[roseguy64]

This is because we have a bit of an inferiority complex. Our national narrative is that we are the best at everything (despite evidence pointing at the contrary) and we are always on the defensive when someone criticizes us (even if they are right, like in this case).

Not all of society is like this of course, you can find on the official argentine football subreddits plenty of posts discussing the issue and recognizing that what our players did was wrong and there are no two ways about it.

Bear in mind that our society is heavily influenced by the beliefs and values from spanish and italian culture, and we generally think that racism is something that only americans do with the KKK and policemen killing black folks.

I watch a lot of content on youtube of foreigners visiting the country because we are very cheap and an attractive nightlife destination. Many of those are black, and from those videos you can tell we are not malicious towards black people nor we hate them, we are just ignorant on the do's and dont's.

Regarding our government officials, I am ashamed of having Milei as president and Villaruel as vicepresident. They are some of the most rancid, far-right nutjobs that were elected because during the campaign for president they showed themselves as people capable of fixing our economic situation. Most of the people here voted for this government to fix the economic issues that haunt us since forever, they paid little attention to anything else. But yeah, they are horrible people and hopefully their government doesn't last too long.

Completely get where you're coming from and it makes a lot of sense TBH.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

The Argentinian reaction reminds me of the buildups to 2012 and 2018 and the response when Poland/Ukraine/Russia were being scrutinised regarding suitability as hosts due to racist hooliganism/fan incidents, and the players, officials and media that responded generally went the same... dismissed as no big issue/racism doesn't exist in our country/ you're hypocrites with your own bloodier past and current problems routes. Granted, some of those comments (Sol Campbell's) were dumb, but there was also legit criticism that a lot of people had a hard time accepting.

Sadly I think the time when many countries have moved beyond a reflexive nationalistic defensiveness on lots of issues is a long way away yet.