Argentina players singing racist chant targeting French players after Copa America final

@ManUtd1999 I encourage you to visit Argentina and with an open mind. It's a beautiful country with a great people (generally).

Even more so if you like steak and wine (neither of which I do sadly)!
 
I should say that the vast majority of North Africans in France are nice people, they are not racist and unlike what some may want you to believe they don't impose their views on others and don't actually consider that it's right to do it. As always, we are talking about a minority, a vocal and unfortunately visible minority. And I tend to assume that the same is true nearly everywhere because that's my experience with people from all around the world.
 
It's not the subject but the way people go about it that is radical.

For what it's worth, I actually agree with the underlying point you're making here, though not with the description of radical.

I strongly believe that best way to deal with racism, explicit or implicit, is to talk, debate, educate. Most of the time it will come from ignorance rather than genuine hatred and attacking or belittling will only lead to more entrenched views.

That's what I (try anyway) to do. Others may disagree or think it's wrong etc and that's fine.

This becomes more difficult online, when people are more dismissive. It's also more difficult when even after multiple attempts, it's quite clear that the individual is entrenched and does not want to acknowledge a problem may even exist in the first place. It can also become quite obvious after a few attempts that there's no genuine intent to engage in good faith.
 
@ManUtd1999 I encourage you to visit Argentina and with an open mind. It's a beautiful country with a great people (generally).

Even more so if you like steak and wine (neither of which I do sadly)!
I hope to go there one day. Thank you.

I like wine, but I almost stopped eating meat. But I’ll try a steak if I go. Send me recommendations, please :)

By the way, I read that a deputy minister in Argentina was fired by their president for suggesting that Messi should apologize for what some of his teammates did. Is that true? Also, how was Messi’s reaction so far? I’m not saying that Messi should apologize for what Enzo did, but just wondering how he reacted.
 
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@ManUtd1999 I encourage you to visit Argentina and with an open mind. It's a beautiful country with a great people (generally).

Even more so if you like steak and wine (neither of which I do sadly)!

The steak and wine would be one of the reasons I would visit. Would also like to check out Patagonia.
 
On a purely practical level, if you are going to constantly make offensive comments or jokes, you are bound to cross a line, to racism, homophobia, misognyny, or general dishonor. When that happens, there'll be consequences you can't control.

If Argentinians' 'football folklore' is to constantly make offensive jokes then they're likely cross a line, and develop a bad reputation for it, one that they may feel doesn't reflect their character. Argentinians have two options: they can accept this as the cost of their 'banter', or they can change their culture. There isn't really a third option.

Ditto.
On a practical note it's exactly like that, even if the actual song like I've said before it's an attemp of a dig on the Colonial aspect of the French and the suppose sporting advantage that came with it done wrong, in general if you play with fire (offensive songs) you are bound to get burn and when that happens at least try to figure out why you got burned on a human level in relation to some fellow mates, not just act "surprise" or kind of piss because of course some people with agendas are going to make a meal out of it for reasons not precisly that noble, all would be a mess, but to teh very least Enzo and many players should think about such flocklore from a different perspective. BTW let's not forget that it isn't just an Argentinian thing the mockery with offensive jokes.

Regarding the thread I don't agree with some of the points made by many of my countryman here but at the same time I get too that there is some sort of pontification that sounds very very silly too, that even has some roots in some very typical condescending look regarding Sudacalandia that isn't right either and quite hypocritical.
 
Perhaps those folk need to re-evaluate their interpretation of racism and how it manifests in the current reality.
And perhaps that's not something you will ever accomplish screaming bloody murder at them and putting them on defensive/denial mode.
 
Interesting thread. There are differences in attitudes between continents and cultures, as we saw with Cavani. Chant was vile, of course, and I hope no United players involved. But also good and helps understanding to tease out the issues, and think aloud about all the implications.

I actually think that any real football fan it's pretty much aware that this is how things go regarding many "football chants" since ever.
The thing that I guess some fellow argies here tried wrongly in my view to defend some over the top extreme comments with some sort of extreme defensive approach denying that like every country Argentina had, has and will have discrimination issues.
 
Mocking the French after winning the Copa AMERICA (that France has nothing to do with) is terrible in itself, even considering that they played the WC final. Doing that with clear racist chants against players, born and raised in France, is another level of ignorance and racism. It’s like saying African American/black players in the U.S. are not real Americans and should play for African teams. Ridiculous and uncivilized.

Enzo and others knew the chants by heart. That tells you about his intentions. Go fix the lingering Economic and corruption problems in your country before talking this way about one of the greatest nations on the planet.

Vive la France ! A symbol of freedom, civilization and tolerance, forever!

I tell you sthg, that goes beyond racism and this thread, football chants many times has nothing to do with the title, match at hand...Scots, English, Argies, or whomever sometimes will chant against a rival that wasn't even the latest rival just for the sake of it, chants against the biggest club rival would be sing playing against another rival, in fact sometimes people will chant old songs offensive or not just because.
I guess that this si somehow lost in translation being American and perhaps this stuff not being part of your football lore.

And BTW, come on, you are acting in a very silly style, almost bordering xenophobia yourself, weird reacton if it's not just joking or trolling
 
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And BTW, come on, you are acting in a very silly style, almost bordering xenophobia yourself, weird reacton if it's not just joking or trolling
Don’t lecture me, please. I’ve explained myself in more than one post and wrote the mods to apologize if someone got hurt. I apologize here too.

I prefer France over 95% of the countries in the world. If I decide to live outside the U.S., it will be only in France. It’s not about Argentina or its people.

I’m done with this thread.
 
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Don’t lecture me, please. I’ve explained myself in more than one post and wrote the mods to apologize if someone got hurt. I apologize here too.

I prefer France over 95% of the countries in the world. If I decide to live outside the U.S., it will be only in France. It’s not about Argentina or its people.

I’m done with this thread.

I don't think anyone got hurt, it just looked like a weird stance given the subject at hand.
And let's just hope that my explanation of why many times players and fans sang against other rivals that has nothing to do with the moment per se was useful too.

PD: I'll give another side note, France and Argentina has been quite close since ever and in the Independece years (Liniers it's one of our not few big figures regarding such affairs) "our" work down here during Napoleon days helped to debilitate the Spanish presence in South America, therefore affecting their European perfomance.
So bar some attemp of them of invading us ;) , you can't blame them, it was quite the flavor of the month to do it in those days by many other Euro Powers or neigbours, we usually tend to be pretty close allies (for the good and the worse).
We used to have very strong links historically regarding literature, music, arquitecture, wines and cuisine in general, military affairs and sports in general, specially tennis (we love Rolland Garros), football and rugby. It's a country that Argentina always looked upon....the funny thing it's that since the 2018 match, the whole Messi PSG affair and this last WC Final the whole social media has created some sort of animosity that was never there.
 
Give it a rest Ant. If you disagree with the substance of a post, then do so, but leave the snark out of it.
Fair. I was just annoyed I had been "quality controlled" earlier in the thread despite not posting rubbish data from Wikipedia as if it were gospel.
 
And perhaps that's not something you will ever accomplish screaming bloody murder at them and putting them on defensive/denial mode.

Are you suggesting this whole thing is caused by everyone except the people doing it? Those players absolutely knew what they were doing.
 
He or she is a Dutch Canadian. Being a mod on a man utd forum does not at all mean they have some deep connection with the country
I thought so, but the point wasn't to attack his/her country but draw a parallel with one most of should be pretty familiar with, or at least should know that something like what happened to Turing has long not been acceptable in any way, shape or form.

And by the way, Raoul has a point @Cheimoon, sorry about going OTT.

I don't really understand how we can come to a shared understanding here when you won't even admit that a constitution which explicitly calls for European migration only doesn't have at least partial racist origins, at best. I understand and accept that trade and nation building will have been a huge factor but the inability to even accept that is genuinely so far from my own viewpoint that I don't understand the common ground there.

I thought I was quite candid when I said I didn't think they cared much for the issue. They certainly spent too many years killing each other over the stuff that really mattered to them to pick fights or get at loggerheads over race.

You have to remember most of these guys were a privileged class that spent a long time in Europe, travelling and educating themselves. Some probably racist snobs, obviously.

I'm sure a more homogeneous population would have sounded more "manageable" to them, which can have a racist angle but also has a clearly valid practical angle. A Brit observer once called us "the purple land" given how much bloodshed there was during that period. Cultural diversity certainly was very low on the agenda of things to die for.

What I also do know, however, is that there was a lot of cross-breeding of ideas in the River Plate. The free secular state-provided education for all was Sarmiento's idea, but we were just nimbler (still are) and managed to get our act together quicker. Us having wide open doors to immigration was another example of that but I'm positive it would have never happened if the conventional wisdom from the other side of the river was hellbent against it.

In practice, it made little difference, the composition of immigration flows was very much the same. We just received a lot of black people from Argentina, but not from anywhere else so it's a bit of a moot point really as far as the outcomes are concerned.

Unless you're going to stand on all. In which case I don't think anyone has claimed (or only some silly people) that all argentines were and are racist.
In this SM amplified world the silly ones sound loudest. I only ever get into Twitter following links on here. As far as current affairs are concerned, it's a warped dark place populated by obfuscated people. You quickly get into that mindset too thanks to reaction algorithms and it is typically anger that elicits reactions so that's the content they are fed and it's no wonder they feel the world is after them.

I prefer to come on here, even if 80% of posts piss me off, there's always some good stuff to mull over.
 
Don’t lecture me, please. I’ve explained myself in more than one post and wrote the mods to apologize if someone got hurt. I apologize here too.

I prefer France over 95% of the countries in the world. If I decide to live outside the U.S., it will be only in France. It’s not about Argentina or its people.

I’m done with this thread.

probably wasn't a good idea to say it's a horrible country then
 
For the most part all that has been used to say they are and always have been racist.

But yeah, I'll entertain your correction:

"In 1952, the British government chemically castrated a brilliant war hero by the name of Alan Turing. The democratically elected British government didn't apologise for this until 2009, three years later a different democratically elected government retracted the apology as out of place given that in 1952 he had indeed committed a crime, the Queen didn't apologise until 2013 and Parliament didn't pass a Law retroactively absolving those guilty of buggery until 2017. It follows that British society in the mid twentieth century was deeply homophobic and less than 15 years ago where still terribly confused about the whole issue"

Better?

It's not better as it's a string of comma splices and difficult to parse; try using some other punctuation (periods and semicolons) to break it up more. I don't have a problem with the content, though; given how long it took for same-sex marriage to be encoded in law across the globe, the UK was just one of many. It's a disgrace how much prejudice LGBTQ+ people have endured. Same-sex marriage is legal in many western democracies but not all, and homosexuality is still criminalized in many countries.

Anyway, that's off-topic.

For the most part all that has been used to say they are and always have been racist.

I've never said, or thought, that everyone in Argentina is racist. That's a ludicrous straw man. All I've noted is that, going by the evidence of many of the replies in this thread, it's clear that the culture there is far behind that of others in this area. Every defensive reply here only adds to that impression.
 
Are you suggesting this whole thing is caused by everyone except the people doing it? Those players absolutely knew what they were doing.
No, I'm not.

What's it with reframing things completely differently and ending up talking about something else entirely? Is it to win browny points for the debate team?
 
It's a disgrace how much prejudice LGBTQ+ people have endured. Same-sex marriage is legal in many western democracies but not all, and homosexuality is still criminalized in many countries.

Anyway, that's off-topic.
It's not really because I've spent much of the thread reading how South Americans are behind in the "progressive agenda".

In Uruguay we decriminalised buggery in 1934. Alan Turing would have been absolutely fine.

I've never said, or thought, that everyone in Argentina is racist.
Oh no, I'm pretty sure you didn't. Most people making articulate posts haven't. It's usually the one-liners that do.
 
No, I'm not.

What's it with reframing things completely differently and ending up talking about something else entirely? Is it to win browny points for the debate team?
I'm just checking I understood you correctly, that's why I asked a question. Perhaps you could clarify what you meant with a little more detail.
 
It's not better as it's a string of comma splices and difficult to parse; try using some other punctuation (periods and semicolons) to break it up more. I don't have a problem with the content, though; given how long it took for same-sex marriage to be encoded in law across the globe, the UK was just one of many. It's a disgrace how much prejudice LGBTQ+ people have endured. Same-sex marriage is legal in many western democracies but not all, and homosexuality is still criminalized in many countries.

Anyway, that's off-topic.



I've never said, or thought, that everyone in Argentina is racist. That's a ludicrous straw man. All I've noted is that, going by the evidence of many of the replies in this thread, it's clear that the culture there is far behind that of others in this area. Every defensive reply here only adds to that impression.

Is it really? it looks more like some overly misguided defensive approach from us sudacas has some roots in the fact that Argentina is a country that mostly never had to dealt with extreme situations, yet still having problems to take accountability of having lots of discriminatory situations and not giving proper importance to acknowledge that in the specific matter at hand: banter chants are indeed most of times discriminatory and can be extremely annoying for the recipient of such stuff.

While in other places after some turbulent stages and still many extreme situations had to apply harsher policies from the law itself to even everyday language and costumes, things are still needing to be pretty much extremely diligent and vigilant.

If anything, Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil and Latin America in general with all our faults it's in a more prefferable situation to work sthg better, sthg that should no require to ban the "negro" tag and be more aware that banter itself, folklore or whatever doesn't exclude the possibility of hurting someone and on a wider scale, way beyond this particular case, to acknowledge how discriminatory people can be with different ethnics, inmigration, social bakcground, mostly when those views can be applied and sustain by goverments.

To start I do think that there is a Football Folklore, specially with violence on every form, that should be the starting point to be tame or deal and not to be put under the rug, how? I dunno.
The solution it's not to not allow rival fans to go to matches, it's not to just say "it's just banter", it's not to play the blind eye to criminal gangs involved in football and politicians using them as their private armies, etc.
The sport should start from there, the world, any country has a bigger task to somehow create an envoriment that actually leaves behind negative connotations to certain ethnics, countries or regions, genres, sexuality etc..the problem it's not to adress it a la Disney adressing pedophilia and how to do it.
 
Much of his rant is mental gymnastics or just lies.

He is not lying in many things, but he just got ultra defensive and got to some extremes, he had some reasons to feel that way too given how the thread derrailed.
 
It's not really because I've spent much of the thread reading how South Americans are behind in the "progressive agenda".

In Uruguay we decriminalised buggery in 1934. Alan Turing would have been absolutely fine.


Oh no, I'm pretty sure you didn't. Most people making articulate posts haven't. It's usually the one-liners that do.
That's fair.
 
Is it really? it looks more like some overly misguided defensive approach from us sudacas has some roots in the fact that Argentina is a country that mostly never had to dealt with extreme situations, yet still having problems to take accountability of having lots of discriminatory situations and not giving proper importance to acknowledge that in the specific matter at hand: banter chants are indeed most of times discriminatory and can be extremely annoying for the recipient of such stuff.

While in other places after some turbulent stages and still many extreme situations had to apply harsher policies from the law itself to even everyday language and costumes, things are still needing to be pretty much extremely diligent and vigilant.

If anything, Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil and Latin America in general with all our faults it's in a more prefferable situation to work sthg better, sthg that should no require to ban the "negro" tag and be more aware that banter itself, folklore or whatever doesn't exclude the possibility of hurting someone and on a wider scale, way beyond this particular case, to acknowledge how discriminatory people can be with different ethnics, inmigration, social bakcground, mostly when those views can be applied and sustain by goverments.

To start I do think that there is a Football Folklore, specially with violence on every form, that should be the starting point to be tame or deal and not to be put under the rug, how? I dunno.
The solution it's not to not allow rival fans to go to matches, it's not to just say "it's just banter", it's not to play the blind eye to criminal gangs involved in football and politicians using them as their private armies, etc.
The sport should start from there, the world, any country has a bigger task to somehow create an envoriment that actually leaves behind negative connotations to certain ethnics, countries or regions, genres, sexuality etc..the problem it's not to adress it a la Disney adressing pedophilia and how to do it.
There's definitely a good conversation to be had, and I for one am open to learning about other cultures, but can you see how the defensiveness has been off-putting to many in this thread? I've seen the same thing on Reddit too, and other social media. I do wish some of the South Americans here and elsewhere would at least acknowledge the racism part of all this (it strikes me that very few have), after which we could all do with learning about each other's cultures.

I also think it's possible you're encountering a legacy of the Suaréz/Evra incident, especially as this is a United forum, since some of the arguments being made now are reminiscent of those defending Suaréz at the time, and many naive Liverpool fans allowed themselves to fall for them hook, line, and sinker back then.

But yes, the history of race everywhere is a blight on our humanity, and I do believe that good-faith conversations between cultures could help.
 
This thread been swaying in all directions. So let me add my 2 cents.

Some countries apply citizenship by birth (E.g US) and others by parentage (UK). Meaning for the latter regardless if I was born in the UK, grew up in the UK, spoke with an English accent, I'd only be classified as British citizen if my parents were British Citizens themselves at the time of my birth (iirc). Else I'd have to apply to become one.

An example is Kobbie Mainoo (assuming the likelihood his parents were not British citizens at time of his birth) he wouldn't have been eligible to play for England. However he would automatically be a Ghanaian citizen by birth through his parents - even though he's born outside the country.

So the people of Ghana can claim Mainoo as one of their Ghanaian without taking away from his British nationality. Mainoo himself has admitted embracing both cultures.

The only reason why players or anyone will defend their French/British identities so vigorously is only because of racists who would easily deny them that. Which is what this chants sought to so.

I feel a some in this thread want to strictly apply the they're French label to the players so as not to appear to be denying them their French identity. But trust me, these players themselves haven't rinsed their Africaness. They may be French born and bred but they eat African food, dance to African music and speak African languages with friends and family.

Africans will often claim players of African origin as African but mainly through representation. Every African I know of was supporting France in the 2 World Cup finals. The France = Africa is a meme now but it's also a way many Africans see themselves in these French players. They still represent Africa through their heritage.


But anyway, feck the country Argentina! Always thought it a quirk that they didn't have any dark skin or indigenous players let alone black ones despite every other South American having such people. Turns out it's not a quirk but by design.
 
This thread been swaying in all directions. So let me add my 2 cents.

Some countries apply citizenship by birth (E.g US) and others by parentage (UK). Meaning for the latter regardless if I was born in the UK, grew up in the UK, spoke with an English accent, I'd only be classified as British citizen if my parents were British Citizens themselves at the time of my birth (iirc). Else I'd have to apply to become one.

An example is Kobbie Mainoo (assuming the likelihood his parents were not British citizens at time of his birth) he wouldn't have been eligible to play for England. However he would automatically be a Ghanaian citizen by birth through his parents - even though he's born outside the country.

So the people of Ghana can claim Mainoo as one of their Ghanaian without taking away from his British nationality. Mainoo himself has admitted embracing both cultures.

The only reason why players or anyone will defend their French/British identities so vigorously is only because of racists who would easily deny them that. Which is what this chants sought to so.

I feel a some in this thread want to strictly apply the they're French label to the players so as not to appear to be denying them their French identity. But trust me, these players themselves haven't rinsed their Africaness. They may be French born and bred but they eat African food, dance to African music and speak African languages with friends and family.

Africans will often claim players of African origin as African but mainly through representation. Every African I know of was supporting France in the 2 World Cup finals. The France = Africa is a meme now but it's also a way many Africans see themselves in these French players. They still represent Africa through their heritage.


But anyway, feck the country Argentina! Always thought it a quirk that they didn't have any dark skin or indigenous players let alone black ones despite every other South American having such people. Turns out it's not a quirk but by design.

The song is WRONG because it implies that French people cannot be black. There is the MAIN underlying racist innuendo that should be CALL OUT, that even many argie players and people do not grasp.

Yet at the same time, many here does not get that the idea behind the chant is a dig at the succees of France due to their Colonialist past and the hipocrisy behind it, snatching players from their former colonies (not just black BTW).
This fragile notion doesn't even care if the vast majority of players are actually born in French soil, the very essence of banter, it's also to be inaccurate and silly and not few times stupid.

All in all, sadly, there is a REAL background that due to the state of their original countries, many families flew to their former Colonialist Power for better opportunities lure by better life conditions. And let's be honest, that is quite fvcked up and sad. That is why some players like Mane, Etoo, etc put so much effort to try to avoid such exodus, there is certainly an elephant in the room aside the stupid racist chant. It's not like the French Goverment chose to ONLY focus on creating better conditions for these players in their own countries and even encouraging them to play for their original places, or that black players in many Euro countries never faced backlash till today and have harder times being the scapegoat dealing with racist stuff.

At the end of the day, even with that elephant, even with that banter idea, it's wrong and racist nonetheless and being banter, based on half truths (or none) and an over the top reading of any situation.

BTW like you've perfectly said, once living in France, inmigrant or born there and being black, many of these players feel even MORE French and feel the need to reinforce that idea. So any banter, rooted like almost always in a very thin idea, far from logic, accuracy and well manners, will bother nonetheless no matter what, elephant or whatever. But let's not forget that reinforcement, that need also comes from the very own racism in their own country.

PD: We had a former Black WC Champ in Baley and our biggest Icon (Diego) had indigenous blood. I still find it funny that even today some poeple think we are some kind of mostly white country, just look at Montiel, Molina, Enzo himself and a large etc. in the current squad
 
Yet at the same time, many here does not get that the idea behind the chant is a dig at the succees of France due to their Colonialist past and the hipocrisy behind it, snatching players from their former colonies (not just black BTW).
I think this would be more credible if Argentinian fans didn't have a documented history of overt, undisputably racist behavior.

We are meant to believe they were being intentionally racist all those times, but this time it was unintentional?
 
I think this would be more credible if Argentinian fans didn't have a documented history of overt, undisputably racist behavior.

We are meant to believe they were being intentionally racist all those times, but this time it was unintentional?

One thing does not take away the other, the chant is racist because of the reasons I've stated but the banter also includes that aspect (wrongly adress it obviously and with even more fvcked innuendos to add).
And I was talking about that aspect because of the post I've quoted, don't be silly, just like dissecting shyte.
In fact I've stated that the dig as a banter does not root, like always, in accuracy or well manners.

PD:

1. Banter songs in football many times have everything fvcked up, like this one (still like I've did in that that post you've quoted, can be explained better in their fvcked up way, not JUSTIFYING THEM).

2. People, fans in general not necessarily think much about them in deep, more than let's just be more offensive than them (the rivals) but it's precisly there where lies the problem: why being gay, being from some religion, political orientation, being a woman, being black, brown or poor and the list goes on should be offensive. That's an issue that exceeds football.

3. The main issue here with all this stuff it's that on a wide and general approach, to avoid fans (not only in Argentina, but the world) to leave behind banter, offensive football chants looks right now quite difficult, close to impossible.

What it's not impossible, nor difficult it's for Players, pro ones like Enzo, to leave the over the top fan aside and think what HIS role is in here, BTW same for Rodrigo, Mascherano or Alexis not seeing the elephant in the room while trying to defend him.

It doesn't matter if Enzo it's not racist per se, or that he can take it from rivals (more with him being brown in that fvcked up folklore) just because he is accostume to such banter. We should start to not seeing it as normal to the very least by the ones that PLAY the game professionaly.
That? like you've said in another post, CAN BE DONE and players should respond for it, at least it's a small step.

Being from down here the arse of the world, I get that generally even pro football argie players are deep into football folklore and in many ways it's fun, it even gives an edge in the pitch in their comitment, but one thing it's singing "the muchachos song" or any of that kind, to have a thicker skin when comes to abuse from crowds or other players and another it's to sing any of the offensive over the top clasic banter from stadiums, you are a fecking pro, even if you deal with it since a boy in the crowd, even if you normally didn't face extreme discrimination and live in a very diverse country, those notions behind offensive chants are fvcked up.

This thread it's also an example of how easily people shift from defending everything with a very kind light that does not deserve, or attack to an extreme that precisly shows lots of the same offensive apporoach and discrimnation.
In the middle to try to talk in a sensible way, in details, calm about the ramnifications that apperaed in this therad seems at moments quite difficult.
 
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I thought so, but the point wasn't to attack his/her country but draw a parallel with one most of should be pretty familiar with, or at least should know that something like what happened to Turing has long not been acceptable in any way, shape or form.

And by the way, Raoul has a point @Cheimoon, sorry about going OTT.
Thanks - although I'm not sure who you thought I was. I only just became a mod, haven't been on the forum for ages either, and I'm only vaguely familiar with the Turing situation. (Thanks also for your posts on that, @africanspur.) I also didn't claim all Argentians are racist or that Argentina as a country is inheritly racist. I've just been trying to better understand the denialism about the racist nature of the song among some Argentinians, by making a link to (some) Argentinians being in denial about racist elements from Argentina's past as well.

Anyway, these points have been repeated a million times now, I'm sure no-one is going to change their minds anymore, and I don't want to continuing spending this much time on the thread. So there.
 
Are you not particularly active in the newbie forum with the liking/modding? At least the last few years for sure.
Scouting, yes! Only for the past 3.5 years though, but I suppose that's not actually that short.
 
Yet at the same time, many here does not get that the idea behind the chant is a dig at the succees of France due to their Colonialist past and the hipocrisy behind it, snatching players from their former colonies (not just black BTW).
This fragile notion doesn't even care if the vast majority of players are actually born in French soil, the very essence of banter, it's also to be inaccurate and silly and not few times stupid.

What makes this hard to believe is the homophobic and transphobic content in the song. I don't mean it in a "the song is homophobic and transphobic, so therefore probably racist, too" kind of way, but that the homophobic and transphobic abuse makes the narrative of your interpretation pretty incoherent.

Football chants are usually very simple, and they tell a short story. You have the Lukaku one: he's black, so he's got a big cock. The Park one: he's South Koreans so he eats dogs, disgusting but not as disgusting as being a poor scouser that had to eat rats to survive. It's very basic stuff, very simple literary devices, but it's coherent.

This song, though, according to you and several others, is completely incoherent. It supposedly goes like this:

- Verse: [Political criticism of French colonial history of exploitation, and modern society's hypocrisy, in a way that is not geared negatively against the black players themselves]
- Verse: [Homophobic and transphobic abuse directed at the players that are apparently not being criticized]
- Verse: [Political criticism of French colonial history of exploitation, and modern society's hypocrisy, in a way that is not geared negatively against the black players themselves]

If this is how it's supposed to be understood, then it might be the worst written song in the history of football, and football chants is a genre with very low barriers to entry.
 
This thread been swaying in all directions. So let me add my 2 cents.

Some countries apply citizenship by birth (E.g US) and others by parentage (UK). Meaning for the latter regardless if I was born in the UK, grew up in the UK, spoke with an English accent, I'd only be classified as British citizen if my parents were British Citizens themselves at the time of my birth (iirc). Else I'd have to apply to become one.

An example is Kobbie Mainoo (assuming the likelihood his parents were not British citizens at time of his birth) he wouldn't have been eligible to play for England. However he would automatically be a Ghanaian citizen by birth through his parents - even though he's born outside the country.

So the people of Ghana can claim Mainoo as one of their Ghanaian without taking away from his British nationality. Mainoo himself has admitted embracing both cultures.

The only reason why players or anyone will defend their French/British identities so vigorously is only because of racists who would easily deny them that. Which is what this chants sought to so.

I feel a some in this thread want to strictly apply the they're French label to the players so as not to appear to be denying them their French identity. But trust me, these players themselves haven't rinsed their Africaness. They may be French born and bred but they eat African food, dance to African music and speak African languages with friends and family.

Africans will often claim players of African origin as African but mainly through representation. Every African I know of was supporting France in the 2 World Cup finals. The France = Africa is a meme now but it's also a way many Africans see themselves in these French players. They still represent Africa through their heritage.


But anyway, feck the country Argentina! Always thought it a quirk that they didn't have any dark skin or indigenous players let alone black ones despite every other South American having such people. Turns out it's not a quirk but by design.
So you're fighting racism by slagging off countries and making sweeping generalistaions?
 
What makes this hard to believe is the homophobic and transphobic content in the song. I don't mean it in a "the song is homophobic and transphobic, so therefore probably racist, too" kind of way, but that the homophobic and transphobic abuse makes the narrative of your interpretation pretty incoherent.

Football chants are usually very simple, and they tell a short story. You have the Lukaku one: he's black, so he's got a big cock. The Park one: he's South Koreans so he eats dogs, disgusting but not as disgusting as being a poor scouser that had to eat rats to survive. It's very basic stuff, very simple literary devices, but it's coherent.

This song, though, according to you and several others, is completely incoherent. It supposedly goes like this:

- Verse: [Political criticism of French colonial history of exploitation, and modern society's hypocrisy, in a way that is not geared negatively against the black players themselves]
- Verse: [Homophobic and transphobic abuse directed at the players that are apparently not being criticized]
- Verse: [Political criticism of French colonial history of exploitation, and modern society's hypocrisy, in a way that is not geared negatively against the black players themselves]

If this is how it's supposed to be understood, then it might be the worst written song in the history of football, and football chants is a genre with very low barriers to entry.

The main gist behind it it's mocking that they had to snatch players from Africa..BUT IS BANTER! football fvcked up folklore, so therefore: is racist (French are white, Africans are black, none of them are true) , it's not accurate, it stupid, it's xenophobic and a large etc.
It's not a a book, an essay, a sociological attempt to adress the subject. I was just adressing the prior post that didn't quite get what it's the gist of it, nothing more, not pretending to be an essay or implying that it's social critique on its highest form, it's not even in its lowest form.


PD: as a very very very aside note, football chants down here are way more elaborated, even the sane ones. It's perhaps one the things from football more copied around the world from other crowds.There are no "Si se puede" or " Fella is a cvnt", they take a poprular song and change teh entire lyrics, sometimes extreme stupid banter, other with some nice not offensive ones.
 
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So you're fighting racism by slagging off countries and making sweeping generalistaions?
What generalisation? Anywhoo have you seen the number of Argentinians defending the chant? Sure it's not every Argentinian but then again, there's only so much turning other cheek we can afford to the people of Argentina when it comes to racial insensitivity because up till now all we've been presenting fresh cheeks for them to slap.
 
What generalisation? Anywhoo have you seen the number of Argentinians defending the chant? Sure it's not every Argentinian but then again, there's only so much turning other cheek we can afford to the people of Argentina when it comes to racial insensitivity because up till now all we've been presenting fresh cheeks for them to slap.
So we don't turn the other cheek, we fight fire with fire?

That would be the pot calling the kettle black. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.