They do. They’re really horrible people.
Argentina players singing racist chant targeting French players after Copa America final
- Thread starter Gandalf Greyhame
- Start date
Just a reminder at those people (probably Ronaldo fanboys) saying Messi is just as guilty for not speaking up and letting this happen. Not only wasn't he on the bus but he did speak up. It seems the young Argentinians were naughty while he was away - https://www.goal.com/en-au/lists/li...a-america-rodrigo-de-paul/blt08ded5d3f04ed010
GOAT
GOAT
Did … you read that article?
“Leo didn’t let us sing songs to Brazil on the pitch, because he knows how everything works. Then, in private, it’s a different story, and he gets on top of the table”
Essentially that whole De Paul story is saying Messi has warned them against picking on opponents directly or publicly, and to save it for private celebrations ….
Not surprised that the Argentines coming out to defend Enzo, politicians and players, are all light skinned. They don't think their country has racism issues because they personally don't experience it. I bet darker skinned Argentines feel differently.
I don't have time to address some of the problems in your entire hypothesis here but just this point, just because a country is more homogenous doesn't mean a prejudicial relative to "racism" doesn't exist - colorism. In all three Asian countries you mentioned, lighter skin is prized and darker skin has historically looked down upon and people have essentially experienced thr same prejudice as racism for their skin color. In China, in periods darker skin is associated with non-Han and barbarians and many older Koreans and Japanese moms prize light skin in their daughters and take many measures to make sure their skin doesn't get dark (like avoid any form of sun tanning). The root is the same as racism, a darker skin person is less pure, a lesser Korean/Japaneae/Chinese, dirtier blood etc.
I think your post here really misses the mark on several levels but don't think because a country has less immigration there isn't a problem with prejudice and the general bias that light is better than dark skin.
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They're pretty racist against people who come from other south American countries like Bolivia, Paraguay, Venezuela, etc.
For them it might pretty normal or just banter for them because is something very common that they say very lightly.
Yeah, that's a good point as well. You also see that with some other countries, like Mexico.
With @oneniltothearsenal, I think this is largely incorrect. To pick out another point, many African countries aren't necessarily more ethnocultutally diverse than European countries (well, relative to size). Ethnocultural diversity in Europe has been flattened through the forceful implementation of the nation state in the 19th century (in ways that would be considered unacceptable now), but underneath that, there is still a lot of regional diversity (including in religion, customs, language, etc.), and that comes out when people are disappointed in the state. Such people for the past 10-20 years have been 'served' more by nationalist politicians that rail against immigration, but before that, you'd often see more regionally focused parties. Under the EU, you also see a bit of a return to more ethnocultural diversity, for example through the protection of regional languages (many of which died out due to linguistic uniformity imposed by the nation state).
That nation state process didn't happen in most African countries and the ethnocultural diversity is therefore still more apparent, but that's ultimately usually not why unrest happens; it's because governments fail their people, and then ethnocultural divides déterminé sides in the conflict. But like in Europe, African countries with good governance generally don't have significant issues with their ethnocultural diversity.
(Also, the USSR
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Are you sure about the Yugoslavia part?
Also vice president just doubled on this saying no colonial power is going to stop them saying the truth nobody wants to admit..
Romero saw 2 days of chaos and thought "yep that's my turn, let me have a go !"
You'd think Spurs would have everybody on lockdown after Bentancur but everybody wants to out themselves
Not worse than the daily racism Maghrebi French face in France, Turkish Germans face in Germany etc., to their own people with citizenship. Don't get me started about the racism that exists in most other European countries.
Interestingly, I have not seen any uproars about above.. mind-blowing to see people here trying to lecture Argentina for a song as if if daily racism, structural racism which is way worse is not still a big thing in their nations.
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Das ging ins Auge
I don't think I wanted to imply a lack of prejudice in those countries, if anything lack of exposure to different cultures and ethnicities always lends itself to certain amount of ignorance, as to your point about colorisim I did point out how China has a problematic history when it comes to how they assimilated large groups of people into a generally homogenous culture.
I'm generally unaware of whether African societies engaged in similar practices before contact with Europeans or not so I'll make no comment there.
(I do wonder how much of the whole colorisim debacle arises from the idea of a tanned individual being more associated with the lifestyle of a peasant but that's bedsides the point)
Again as I pointed out the regional diversity in Europe whether it was flattened out through force or natural happenstance pales in comparison to what you'll see in most middle Eastern countries for example.
Europe was generally a much more homogenous continent ethnically speaking to begin with due to myriad of factors, it's small size being perhaps one of them.
There's a reason the soviet SSRs corresponded to ethnic divisions, it was due to a concerted effort by their central government when drawing up those lines, although they regretted what they've did later on.
Yugoslavia is self explanatory.
As I said in my original post I don't even think ethnic divisions are the most major component in such strife but it does exit as it's only natural for people to gravitate towards those who they look more alike than those who don't, although probably less than they do towards those who hold the same values as they do, not factoring such basal human urges as I've said before is counter productive.
What We're seeing with Europe is uncharted territory, as throughout history ethnic and cultural diversity were made possible by large and all encompassing empires and there generally has been a visible power imbalance in those situations in regards to those who initiated the conquests and the conquered whether it being the romans, Arabs, turks or the han.
What we're seeing in Europe has very little precedent and whether it all work out in the end or not is to be seen, but it certainly won't be easy getting there either way.
Is this the Tommy Robinson school of imagined history. Of course western Europe is famous for 2000 years of war free stability, absolutely no wars or conflicts at all, I looked it up and couldn't find anything about any conflicts so you must be right. I couldn't find anything about migration during the Roman Empire, El Andalus wasn't real either.
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Please take any thread derailing take NATO discussion to the CE, as has already been requested, thanks. They'll just get deleted/infracted here.
No, that was pretty dumb on my part...
You have not seen this in this thread that's about the Argentinian chant, or you have not seen it anywhere? More generally, if there is racism elsewhere, why does that absolve Argentina from anything?
There's a name for what you're doing here: whataboutism. Look it up online if it's new to you. It's unwanted in discussion.
Quality control
Not the frenchness, the French origin. Next up, Gemini giving us pictures of Louis XIV and his black courtisans.
As far as the frenchness is concerned, I would be less worried about some players singing, albeit not streaming, an Argentinian terrace song and more worried about the substantial % of French people that vote people like Le Pen. That's where the problem is and what the song targets.
It is not a racist song per se but one that leverages and therefore promotes hate speech from racist French people to sow division in their camp, so it's quite obviously not a good thing. I think the nuance between those singing it being racist and promoting hate speech is relevant. More so when Enzo turned it off and did not broadcast the hate speech at all.
Of course they didn't. Terrace songs about rivals aren't expected to be love letters.
The entire point of the song is to breed disunity, split camps, have people point out Griezmann and Theo being white, yadda yadda. The French have had some shite World Cup campaigns for that very reason (2010 comes to mind).
I'm not aware of Argentinians being notoriously anti-black, they are far more racist with regards to fellow South Americans. E.g. an infamous newsflash stating there was an accident in the motorway where 3 people and a Bolivian died. That was done as a joke... but wasn't, was it?
I don't think any of that ever crossed their mind. They are singing what their fans sing. Terrace songs in South America often feature stuff like "we will burn down (insert city neighbourhood)". I sing my team's ones. Nobody actually burns anything down though.
Enzo did well censoring what should be censored and nobody ever heard on that clip.
Nonsense. As an Argie-hating Chilean you know full well there's never been any perceived need to "white wash" anything in the Southern Cone because slavery was never a big thing.
What few slaves arrived from Africa were "help" for very affluent colonial families. That's a very tiny contingent relative to the equatorial/Caribbean countries which employed slaves en masse in plantations. You don't need slaves to raise cattle, and by the time agriculture developed slavery was already abolished.
There's no disputing our origins are entirely "foreign". As you point out, indigenous populations were wiped out as they weren't docile and willing to live in submission like the mayans, the incas, the guaranis or your mapuches.
We take pride in our roots and embrace our ancestry, all the while having a strong national identity. I would expect as much (now or over time/generations) from French people of African descent, so there should be nothing for them to be offended really.
They could rightfully be angry about the way they are targeted in that song amid many people in France not yet accepting them as French, but the clip literally never does that because it excludes that content.
Essentially, Fofana's news story here is "my teammate was in a bus where they sung a racist terrace song and he made a point of not broadcasting it to the world. You should all feel sorry for me". Liverpool bid incoming.
Not sure about the relative weights, but thanks for the acknowledgement.
Weird post. Why do you think people like Fofana and Koundé got so mad over this? Precisely because they've been hearing this kind of talk all their lives in their own country. Koundé in particular took a stand against the rise of the far-right in France. They don't need the hear that stuff again from their own colleagues.
Whataboutism has to be the most ridiculous term in the last couple of years on the internet. It’s mainly used as a “get out of jail freecard” to throw when you can’t be arsed to listen to the other person or you just wanna move on.
It’s mostly used to distance one instead of listening/taking up the discussion or using actual arguments to tell why the other has an irrelevant opinion. Rarely any debate gets richer imo, by using such a term.
Not saying who’s right or wrong in your discussion btw, just that the term whataboutism is such an easy one to throw.
Yup, this absolutely reeks of 'we all just have the craic and nobody takes anything seriously, definitely not racist' being decided by one predominant ethnicity, without any actual input from minorities.
Afro-Argentines once made up to 50 percent of population in some cities in 19th century or is that made up data?
As for the song so cause he stopped the broadcasting before the racist part it never happened. They must have stopped right away after he stopped filming..
You're esentially portraying Enzo as a victim in all of this and Fofana as some kind of snowflake who's crying about nothing.
I'm saying all this like someone who always liked Argentina NT but they're sure acting like racist pricks. You cant tell me the song is not racist. The fact people in France are voting for Le Pen doesnt take any racism away from the song.
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Whataboutism at its finest.
They are 0.7% of the population. It's not a minority group but a total irrelevance.
Racism generally emerges towards far more significant "troublesome" minorities, don't you think?
No. It’s an actual term. It’s when someone brings up something that’s not related to the discussion. It’s a method of deflection.
Jesus, I never realised you're such an awful poster. Talk about a load of shite.
Bang on.
Those spouting 'It’s mainly used as a “get out of jail freecard” to throw when you can’t be arsed to listen to the other person or you just wanna move on' are just whinging as their method is rumbled.
Made up data.
Re: stopped filming vs happened. My view is it leverages hate speech so the big problem really would be to air it publicly. What people did or didn't do in private is none of my, your, or Fofana's business really.
The distinction between private and public domain is at the foundation of healthy societies.
While I agree the term is overused, and often used wrong, it's also a real rhetorical device, used to deflect or deflate the original point through a 'maybe, but what about this' method: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism. The post I responded to is really a textbook case of whataboutism in this exact sense.
Wow, that's big. Made up by who and to what purpose?
I hope the whitewashing which happened for instance in Australia and Canada hasnt been made up too.
So the only problem is the moment of filming and stopping it. Racist song was stopped before a racist part so its all good. Got it.
Racism emerges towards people of different race, no matter if its 0.7 or 70 percent.
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No, racism appears anywhere. And the black Argentinian population became so small through a targeted campaign: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Argentines.
Also, Fofana is angry because he now knows that his team mate was singing a racist song aimed specifically at people like himself. When the live feed was cut is irrelevant to that fact. How is it odd to you that Fofana took offense to that?
Data from a Census from around 1800. What's made up about that?
And it's also unpleasant if people are racists in private, but you just don't know, so what can you do. But now it's not private anymore and Fofana knows. What's he supposed to do? Pretend he doesn't know that his team mate sings about him in this way with his friends?
I see you crossed out Yugoslavia already, might want to reconsider the USSR part as well. Countries like Estonia and Latvia existed before the Russian occupation, along the same borders, they were independent countries. Those pre-occupation borders remained during the time they were under occupation (Estonian SSR and Latvian SSR). After the USSR fell and these countries restored their independence, they went back to the previous borders, why wouldn't they? We followed the borders we had before the USSR came along.
You need to understand that it was banter and that in Argentina banter isn't supposed to involve the other side, so cutting the live feed makes it particularly acceptable.
Is it ok to say "Argentine people are racist" because of a song, labeling the whole nation this way? Where do these people get the right to label Argentina and its people this way in a public forum? Would you like others to say the same things for your people & nation just because a well known persona from your nation did what Enzo did?
There's a difference between saying "Enzo and whoever was involved did something stupid" and "Argentine people are racist", you know. My reaction is to those looking down on Argentina on their high horses for a song when the track records on racism of their nations are way way worse with epic levels of structural racism (coward/hidden/politically correct type of racism which is 100 times worse). This looks more like a witch hunt to me.
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My post even says it’s a term?
I don't even know his data source. I just know it's definitely not true because the only slaves arriving in Argentina were for domestic "help" at wealthy colonial households (few and far apart). They weren't "braceros" (massive numbers of plantation workers).
A bunch of guys are singing terrace songs, one comes up with racist content so the streamer avoids airing racist content. It follows he should be crucified for it. Oh, wait...
Sure does, but my point is every man and his dog here expertly and misguidedly bangs on about Argentinian racism against black people. Knowing them well and having lived right next door for decades I can tell you they are largely racist with fellow South Americans.
It doesn't make it any better, just pointing out 90% of the people on this thread have feck all grounds to make the sort of all-encompassing statements being made.
It appears that sadly Argentina has no ability to self reflect or self evaluate and instead they are doubling down. That attitude will get you to nowhere.
I looked it up now. It's basically highlighting far flung locations with minimal population, primarily up north which is the direction the slave trade channelled through the port of Buenos Aires went (e.g. mining in Peru/Bolivia/north of Argentina, none of these even being countries with actual borders then).
The large majority of the population of what is Argentina today was in very few cities and none of them are listed there.
Not bad data then, hand-picked data.