If one day Lukaku gets injured, would you prefer Martial as striker over Rashford?
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Actually I can see him going to Bayern on loan.
Yes, he has better hold up play.
Rashford has been really useless in Mourinho’s single striker formation. The odd times he’s done well it’s usually with another playing close to him in a 3-5-2.
Fergie was on to something when he made do with functional midfielders and good/great strikers in his later years. The football wasn’t exactly pretty but we were never lacking in chances. Get the number up front, give them the ball quickly, create chaos. Our current problem has much to do with an insistence on playing a target men when none of the players behind him are prolific from a deeper position. We’d surely concede more but players like Martial, Rashford, Sanchez would all benefit from playing higher up the pitch with less defensive responsibility. The strange neglect of our rightwing when signing loads of midfielders and cbs are also bizarre. That 60m spent on Fred if instead used to get a midtable, old school wide man would improve our chance creation much more than the current set up.
Under Jose it won't make much of a difference - he said it himself that he doesn't see rash Ford & martial as strikers - this is a direct relation to his tactics & preferences for target men.
Ultimately no matter how good martial, Rashford or even Messi is - none would be strikers under Jose if there is target men available - so assuming that Jose has the tactics to get the best out of any of them is wrong.
The best thing he could do & what I hope to do is to play Rashford or martial as a support striker just off Lukaku - since the latter tends to drift to the right whilst martial drifts to the left. That way everyone plays as a striker & no one plays as a target men & we don't need wingers either. Sanchez can also play as a striker with someone else upfront since he looks like he has lost some pace.
Another thing is I'd love to see
Instead of
Martial-Lukaku
Sanchez
Is this
Sanchez - Lukaku
Martial
I'd reckon Martial could play as potential false 9 & would improve his attacking & defensive ability by making him play in a direct channel in between two wider strong strikers.
Ultimately - if they are just there to do what Lukaku is made to do - they both will struggle; that does not make them bad players.
Definitely not. Martial's time with us as an out and out striker has been poor. Plus his movement is very poor and playing with his back to goal is poor. I wouldn't say Rashford is on a much higher plane of existence but Rashford actually makes runs off the ball and has a comprehension of losing his marker off the shoulder at the very least which sets him apart from Martial.
Both of them up front in a 3-5-2 would be interesting. I think it would be a good way to demonstrate just how poor Martial is off the ball.
All in all, Martial's development since joining Man Utd has been really disappointing. He was arguably better in his first 6 months than in any period since. I don't know what that says about our club. He looked as if he could have become a great player both as a striker and out wide.
The exact moment when Martial went to replace depay on the left wing. Whilst Martial is never a 25 a season goal striker - he is better centrally & should play with other attackers in a team.
The club of course contributes to a players development, but its a 2 way street and he doesnt exactly look like someone who wants to make it to the top level at any cost. He needs to work much harder, particularly off the ball.
Outside of the period of time when he joined the club, how often has he played as an out and out striker? He most certainly was not poor when he first started here. His play with his back to goal was clearly levels above anything our other potential strikers have ever shown, and his movement isn’t as lacklustre from there - he really struggles to cover the required ground at left wing, he doesn’t have the engine for it.
He's had plenty of opportunities to impress and just doesnt look interested. Even if he is playing out of position, he should be giving absolutely everything he can to try and impress and get back into the side and is playing half hearted.
Anyone can forgive a poor performance, but not even trying is unforgivable.
36 starts, 9 and 6. A goal every 246 minutes as per Transfermarkt. His back to goal ability was better than Ibrahimovic and now Lukaku? Okay then. I'm just going to chalk that one up to a hyperbolic riposte.
His movement is poor, his ability with his back to goal is only similar to Rashfords and he has no credit built up playing in a professional manner in which he can be trusted to work hard and put in a performance. We can't just be rewarding players because they might be good there. Certainly not Martial at this point, he's lucky to even get picked on the left and when he is picked and gets his big chance to keep a returning Sanchez out of the side he not only blows it, but just.. Nothing's it. Like he didn't even care and didn't want to be there.
I don't know what more there is to say. I wouldn't be rewarding him with starts right now, trusting him in positions where he can't even play in his main position properly.
If we absolutely had to I would stick Rashers and Martial up front though with Sanchez in the hole if it came to that (just to see how it goes, as you say) and the FB's providing width. But the squad would have to be pretty barren for that to happen.
Whether you think it Jose or not, what we def no is it's not happening. Neither is it happening internationally either. Whilst you might think it's Jose being negative in his football, it doesn't mean when you have the ball and you are attacking, you don't show your quality. Whether Jose plays you out of position, you show your ability to adapt. Whether Jose starts you from the bench, you show the fans you deserve to start. Whether Jose doesn't like you, you show him that he doesn't have to like you, to play you. Whether you are unhappy, show the fans that you respect that they pay your wages when they earn a fraction what you do, and respect the badge. Whether you want to leave, play so you get a Barca or Real interested in you. It's your future you are playing for.
I guess for me, it's always more about the player than the manager. It helps if he likes you, but you shouldn't rely on that to perform.
I guess for me, it's always more about the player than the manager. It helps if he likes you, but you shouldn't rely on that to perform.
I don’t particularly disagree with anything there - it has nothing to do with my post.
Much of his play has been languid throughout his time here. Confidence and conditioning play a part too. So far, he has looked like the player he was at the beginning of his second season, rather than the sharper and more purposeful one who kicked off his first and third. That’s not good. I’m not expecting much from Martial this season.
36 starts, 9 and 6. A goal every 246 minutes as per Transfermarkt. His back to goal ability was better than Ibrahimovic and now Lukaku? Okay then. I'm just going to chalk that one up to a hyperbolic riposte.
His movement is poor, his ability with his back to goal is only similar to Rashfords and he has no credit built up playing in a professional manner in which he can be trusted to work hard and put in a performance. We can't just be rewarding players because they might be good there. Certainly not Martial at this point, he's lucky to even get picked on the left and when he is picked and gets his big chance to keep a returning Sanchez out of the side he not only blows it, but just.. Nothing's it. Like he didn't even care and didn't want to be there.
I don't know what more there is to say. I wouldn't be rewarding him with starts right now, trusting him in positions where he can't even play in his main position properly.
If we absolutely had to I would stick Rashers and Martial up front though with Sanchez in the hole if it came to that (just to see how it goes, as you say) and the FB's providing width. But the squad would have to be pretty barren for that to happen.
Agree. I hear the whole Sanchez debate and what impact it might have had on Martial but Christ, isn't that what happens at big clubs? Wasn't our success in the past cause we kept the team competitive with health competition? Martial should be giving Jose sleepless nights in how he could get them both in the team.
36 starts, 9 and 6. A goal every 246 minutes as per Transfermarkt. His back to goal ability was better than Ibrahimovic and now Lukaku? Okay then. I'm just going to chalk that one up to a hyperbolic riposte.
His movement is poor, his ability with his back to goal is only similar to Rashfords and he has no credit built up playing in a professional manner in which he can be trusted to work hard and put in a performance
. We can't just be rewarding players because they might be good there. Certainly not Martial at this point, he's lucky to even get picked on the left and when he is picked and gets his big chance to keep a returning Sanchez out of the side he not only blows it, but just.. Nothing's it. Like he didn't even care and didn't want to be there.
I don't know what more there is to say. I wouldn't be rewarding him with starts right now, trusting him in positions where he can't even play in his main position properly.
If we absolutely had to I would stick Rashers and Martial up front though with Sanchez in the hole if it came to that (just to see how it goes, as you say) and the FB's providing width. But the squad would have to be pretty barren for that to happen.
Sorry, no not Ibrahimovic - forgot about that genius. Lukaku? Yes, definitely. His hold up play is of a higher quality.
I was referring to a hypothetical future scenario where the only context is that Lukaku is injured. Martial is looking poorly. I wouldn’t start him at centre forward on Monday, but I don’t think this is going to be his general performance level over the course of the rest of his career either.
I'd say most, if not all, of our attackers are giving Mourinho sleepless nights at the moment. Not the good kind though..
The damage most likely already done before we went and signed Alexis. His signing only solidified the situation.
Might be right....
If I'm ever in need of a psychologist, I'll stop by here first and see if any of you are available.
I find it just a bit bizarre that there's such a divide. The outcry when he doesn't play, the outcry when he does play. There's usually no middle ground, it's like people decide beforehand if it's a great match or a shite one, and they stick to that notion.
People need to calm down, there's so many personal opinions presented as facts, on mental issues, general attitude issues etc, all the way down to school results. Jesus on a bike, things are taken just a bit too far. It's being painted as if he has the weakest mentality ever, that he expects to be just given the first team spot, that he can't handle competition, 6 months after he was being credited for buckling down and fighting when rotating on the left wing with Rashford.
Maybe he wants a move away, not because he can't handle the notion of competition, not because he wants to be given a first team spot without claiming it, but because he feels that he feels it's the best for his career. De Bruyne decided it, Salah decided it, Matic was happy to do so, plenty of poor players have done it, it doesn't mean the mentality is poor, doesn't mean it's a bad choice and it doesn't mean it's a good choice. Maybe he wants away because he can't handle competition, maybe he wants away because between him and Mourinho there's a basic understanding of a situation that's not good for either of them. Presenting either of that as facts, without Mourinho or the player stating what's going on (and even that should be taken with a pinch of salt), is daft. Your personal opinion on a situation is just about that, a personal opinion.
This "FC fan club" bit being thrown around as some sort of cheap domination technique does my left nut in to such an extent that I'm tempted to have it removed. Maybe it's not that much of a surprise, when you see what the usual suspects in here post about Mourinho, Woodward, and they can't even get facts right about the clubs spending, and how false claims are being repeated till death because they somehow feel that repeating it makes it true(r?)
Not sure why so many have the need to under- or overestimate player abilities. We have a barely functioning left wing, a non-functioning right wing and an isolated striker up front that scores goals but isn't, in my opinion, performing as well as he could. Is it a coincidence that more or less an entire attack looks dysfunctional, is it because of the players, all of them ?, the system being utilized, not being able to play up to the managers standards ? I'd understand more of the criticism if this was a case of one player standing out as a stumpy toe in a side that looks great, but we're a fair bit of distance from that being remotely true.
Would another manager get more out of Martial, or even Rashford for that matter, maybe and maybe not. I think quite a players that look great at other clubs, would look equally poor at Manchester United, simply because there's less movement and less space, and they'll often find themselves marked by two players. It's not really fair to compare players who are in well functioning systems with players in dysfunctional systems, part of that responsibility is on the manager, to get the best out of whats in front of him.
Also, we haven't even played 3 matches this season, after a less than ideal pre-season for all the players involved. Calm down. If we end up battering Tottenham, the mood will shift instantly, if we then lose the next match the mood will suddenly be that we're relegation candidates again.
I find it just a bit bizarre that there's such a divide. The outcry when he doesn't play, the outcry when he does play. There's usually no middle ground, it's like people decide beforehand if it's a great match or a shite one, and they stick to that notion.
People need to calm down, there's so many personal opinions presented as facts, on mental issues, general attitude issues etc, all the way down to school results. Jesus on a bike, things are taken just a bit too far. It's being painted as if he has the weakest mentality ever, that he expects to be just given the first team spot, that he can't handle competition, 6 months after he was being credited for buckling down and fighting when rotating on the left wing with Rashford.
Maybe he wants a move away, not because he can't handle the notion of competition, not because he wants to be given a first team spot without claiming it, but because he feels that he feels it's the best for his career. De Bruyne decided it, Salah decided it, Matic was happy to do so, plenty of poor players have done it, it doesn't mean the mentality is poor, doesn't mean it's a bad choice and it doesn't mean it's a good choice. Maybe he wants away because he can't handle competition, maybe he wants away because between him and Mourinho there's a basic understanding of a situation that's not good for either of them. Presenting either of that as facts, without Mourinho or the player stating what's going on (and even that should be taken with a pinch of salt), is daft. Your personal opinion on a situation is just about that, a personal opinion.
This "FC fan club" bit being thrown around as some sort of cheap domination technique does my left nut in to such an extent that I'm tempted to have it removed. Maybe it's not that much of a surprise, when you see what the usual suspects in here post about Mourinho, Woodward, and they can't even get facts right about the clubs spending, and how false claims are being repeated till death because they somehow feel that repeating it makes it true(r?)
Not sure why so many have the need to under- or overestimate player abilities. We have a barely functioning left wing, a non-functioning right wing and an isolated striker up front that scores goals but isn't, in my opinion, performing as well as he could. Is it a coincidence that more or less an entire attack looks dysfunctional, is it because of the players, all of them ?, the system being utilized, not being able to play up to the managers standards ? I'd understand more of the criticism if this was a case of one player standing out as a stumpy toe in a side that looks great, but we're a fair bit of distance from that being remotely true.
Would another manager get more out of Martial, or even Rashford for that matter, maybe and maybe not. I think quite a players that look great at other clubs, would look equally poor at Manchester United, simply because there's less movement and less space, and they'll often find themselves marked by two players. It's not really fair to compare players who are in well functioning systems with players in dysfunctional systems, part of that responsibility is on the manager, to get the best out of whats in front of him.
Also, we haven't even played 3 matches this season, after a less than ideal pre-season for all the players involved. Calm down. If we end up battering Tottenham, the mood will shift instantly, if we then lose the next match the mood will suddenly be that we're relegation candidates again.
Mourinho's single striker formation never changes depending on who we have available, that's the issue, not Rashford. When Lukaku was out injured towards the end of last season, we played Rashford as if he was Lukaku, not that much of a surprise that it wasn't an instant success.
Yeah, fair enough. Completely disagree there and will stop short of describing that take as absolute lunacy. I personally have no idea how anybody could think Martial has a better all-round game than Lukaku. But we can just agree to disagree.
I wouldn't either and I understand what you mean. Right now, I would not be rewarding Martial for his attitude with shuffles and/or even starts. But I'm happy to leave that up to Jose. If Martial is not playing it is no skin off my sack, he needs a right royal bollocking up the backside and to wake up to himself or the boot out the door faster than you can say 'to feet! to feet!' for his career to progress. Unfortunate but the ball is in his court.
One of the better posts in this thread,refreshing to see an even keeled opinion. Things have either been black or white only on here as of late
Really? Basically he said we don't know everything hence we shouldn't express our opinions and just wait to see how things play out.
Even if he's got a point with the overreaction & very well reasoned analysis, we are on this forum to speculate since none of us work directly with the club/players. It's obvious we are never going to have all the info to give factual based opinions, so reminding us of that is hardly productive.
Also there is plenty of data to derive conclusions. Mourinho has a track record of performance/relationship issues with attacking players - Martial, Rashford, Sanchez, Mata, Ronaldo, Hazard, KDB, Salah, Robben. Basically either all these forwards somehow decided to coincedently underperform/be bad team players when Mourinho's was in charge or there is a correlation.
Mourinho plays with a compact counter attacking shape that forces forwards to cover a lot of ground. While most managers try and place their attacking players in favorable 1v1s in open space, our manager expects our players to spring 60 yards & somehow have the focus/energy to take perfect touches/passes/shots to score. Oh & since it's too risky to make mistakes we play conservatively and don't create enough clear cut chances. So when a player doesn't score on every chance created it's a mistake.
Not saying Martial is a great player nor do I care if he becomes one, but it's obvious he has all the raw tools. Only needs a manager who knows how to play modern football where you try and score goals. Rather than one who sits back, hopes the opponent makes a mistake so you nick a goal or two while not making any yourself. Newsflash players aren't robots.
Obviously people react to wins/loses since we are humans who care about our team. But saying it's only been two games don't panic is stupid since we've seen our manager fail to create a style of play that can deliver sustainable results for over 2 yes. Pep/Klopp took a yr to adjust but managed to do so. Mourinho is on year 3 & still struggling. That's the real issue.
I think you spelled Rashford wrong, if anything Martial doesn't use his speed nearly enough because he has all the skills you need to beat 1-2 defenders in tight space without using his speed.
Because Van Gaal's system suited him perfectly IMO. One of the goals of LVG's system was to eventually create 1-on-1 matchups for Martial to exploit. Elements of Martial's game that were underdeveloped (off-the-ball movement being one) didn't matter as the system didn't rely on it.
While i don't disagree with this, Martial was effective when he was hardly known to anyone and he could use that to his advantage. He literally has 1 trick up his sleeve i.e cut in from left. The defenders these days watch a lot of videos and sort themselves out. Martial needs more in his locker IMO.
There are many many players who have had great careers on the flanks with a defender knowing he's going to his dominant side most of the time. Martial was a relative unknown but it doesn't take an entire season to analyze a player's tendencies. He was still operating at a high level and the most critical piece to LVG's attack at the end of the season, when most clubs had a solid 1/2 season+ of tape to analyze.
I agree he obviously needs to improve his overall game. I don't think Mourinho and his coaching staff (no matter which cast of characters are rotated in) are the ones to unlock that, but that's a different conversation entirely.
According to Sunday Telegraph 'Anthony Martial, 22, is prepared to stay at Manchester United after being heartened by the club's refusal to sell him despite the wishes of manager Jose Mourinho'.
Perhaps he thinks Mourinho isn't going to last long, so is staying to see who takes over.
Perhaps he thinks Mourinho isn't going to last long, so is staying to see who takes over.
That's what I think too, I think he's gonna ride it out and see what happens. Hopefully we see some better performances from him.
Then you completely misunderstood, I said people need to stop presenting opinions as facts, not to stop posting opinions.
My opinion really stems from Martial’s technical ability, by comparison. At the moment Martial doesn’t look right. When he is fit, confident and motivated he is a different animal, as with all players. Lukaku had games and periods last year where he also didn’t look quite right - not quite as sharp and strong, and where his touch escaped him. Even though we are talking about professional footballers whose working week is geared entirely towards having them in prime condition for games, we still see isolated and grouped instances of every player just not looking quite as good as they should, for whatever reason - fitness conditioning, confidence, motivation.
Looking at Martial and Lukaku (and assuming they are in good condition), with regards to being able to effectively hold the ball up with their back to goal, Lukaku obviously has a larger frame and can hold his ground under pressure more robustly than Martial can, particularly if the ball is travelling in the air. Martial is strong too though - both can hold off defenders - and has a much better touch, in general. If the ball is in the air, bouncing off the surface, driven in at pace, played in or into a confined area, or if the forward has to come towards the ball, move to a side or generally react and rearrange their feet in any way, Martial is more likely to have an assured touch and retain possession in a good area.
Essentially that is why I would say he is the better player with his back to goal, in hold up play. It’s by no means the only consideration when looking at a centre forward’s general play and all-round game, but in that particular facet I think Martial is superior.
All that is fair. If it is a question of motivation then I would say I could understand the notion that he is, ultimately, not Mourinho’s kind of player and will not quite get a fair crack of the whip. Although I think it is in the clubs best interest to have a fit and firing Martial, we are where we now and Mourinho needs to put out teams which are going to win games. His preseason was dreadful and he had a nothing performance last week. He needs to do better.
I agree with you. But the thing is there was pressure when he signed for us for as an unknown entity for an incredible fee, yet that didn't stop him from scoring a wonderful goal in what was a pressured atmosphere in first minutes with us.
Sort of sums up the forum in a nutshell....but if we agree with this, what would we log onto to find someone just to argue with; Or prove out football knowledge is better than a manager who's won everything in the game; Or share our years of coaching having taken the badges; Or our world wide knowledge of players and scouting; Or our financial knowledge in running a billion pound business?
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- I stopped reading here, what a blinkered view. You think fans (on both sides of the argument) decide his fate and ignore how he plays in a game (ie if he tears it apart and scores a hat trick or assists well, he’d still get the same reaction)?Is that what you are saying?!
What is this madness? It’s like him waltzing past past people with drag backs, dummies and other various tricks I don’t know the name for never happened. Ask Carvajhl how he feels about Martial if he’s recovered.
Martial was our best player in his first year here. In came that boring feckface and he hasn't been himself since. Don't blame Martial, blame the one who hangs out his players to the press. The one who rather keep a clean sheet than scoring goals. The feckwit that talks about long gone days instead of putting some selfbelief in his players and letting them express themselves. He has to go. fecking boring prick. Best 12 million ever invested by Ed (The I don't know footie but I do know economics) Woodward. And bring back FOOTBALL CLUB to the crest ffs
We are lucky you don't post very often here
Shots are fired.
Is that what you are saying?!
What I wrote is that I find it strange that there's such distance between opinions, and that it's like people have already decided beforehand and that the performance itself doesn't matter. I'd expect it to be similar for players in similar situations where there's a clear divide in opinions, like with Fellaini. It's natural behavior, people are too focused on their initial beliefs that they are unlikely to change them. Considering the tolerance for hyperbole, it's a bit of a surprise that someone finds such a statement to be extremely problematic to the extent that the rest of the post is ignored, but whatever floats your boat.
I think I’d rather Alexis over both. Then one of them as LW, depending on form.
That would be my choice.
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