[Brwned]

The people doubling down on this idea that Onana makes no difference to our build up play and beating the press are going to look ridiculous at some point. I reckon deep down they know it’s an absurd point, but they’re just capitalising on this moment of chaos to bask in glee.

If anyone seriously thinks that how we’re playing now is how we’re always going to play with Onana here, they’re living in dreamland. This is a moment where the defensive lineup is decimated and ever-changing, the midfield is trying to play in a new shape, and disastrous results are killing morale across the board. And the change in goalkeeper style is dramatic, even in a normal scenario you’d expect some adjustment before things click.

If you really think that’s the ideal time to judge a keeper, especially in his first 10 games, you’ve lost the plot.

Imagine if De Gea’s first 10 games defined his United career. He couldn’t even keep Lindegaard out.

 

[Highfather_24]

My only worry is he seems to have weak hands.

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

My only worry is he seems to have weak hands.

Only worry?

 

[Dominos]

That right there is a typical agenda driven United fan. Either that or you didn’t watch the cup final. We couldn’t create a single quality chance for our forwards until Garmacho entered and did a few runs on their defenders, if it wasn’t for a stupid penalty we wouldn’t have even scored. But here you are DDG lost us the final

We conceded 2 goals where the keeper just watched the ball go into the net. Dress it up all you want, if Onana just watches the ball into his net twice in a game (as he has been doing), you'll be slating him for costing us. And I will too.

 

[Dominos]

I’m not going to pick apart everything you’ve just written partly because you do make a few good points, but mainly because it delusional in the extreme to believe that we would have beaten City in the FA Cup final but for De Gea. We had nothing on City, which did not have a great day at the office but we’re still the better side by miles.

This is the kind of delusion we’ve been dealing with since Moyes, that if only one player was up to it we would have won the FA Cup or the Europa League or the Premier League. The undeniable truth about last season is that our defense was the strength of our squad performance and that our attack was the weakest link in our performance. A keeper’s main job is to keep our sheets as clean as possible and if you or anyone rise cares to check the record Dave did his job. Yes, he made mistakes but he helped us qualify for the CL which was far and away our top priority, he helped us with the league cup which is a meh if you like but it’s still a cup, and he helped us get to the FA Cup final but lost to a team that is vastly superior to us. In case there’s any confusion on this point, let me state this again: City were vastly superior to United last season.

Even if we had fluked a win over City in the FA Cup final that was in no way thrown by De Gea, the same De Gea haters here would have come up with some other excuse to justify getting rid of him. Great, that’s exactly what we we did and here we are now, losing CL group matches we should have won but for horrifying goalkeeping and scraping by clubs in the PL that were put into doubt because of our new keeper. Not the ideal way to run a football club.

We conceded 2 goals in the final, and our keeper just watched them go into the net.

No one claimed we were better than City, no one claimed we 100% would have won if De Gea was competent enough to actually make a save. But we've gone into the cup final against City with a 2 goal deficit because our keeper isn't interested in making a save. How are we meant to beat a superior side when our keeper is giving them freebies?

When Onana just watches the ball into the net twice this season, let's see you keep this same energy "well we didn't really create much at the other end so I don't think it's fair to say he's cost us anything".

 

[RuudTom83]

For starters he needs a player who is always available for a pass 90% of the time. The current CB pairings are not the type who like the ball into feet and Casemiro is not having a great season, and even he doesn't thrive receiving the ball when he is facing his own goal.

Get Martinez back and hope Amrabat is the cure to the passing side.

Then lets hope/pray his keeping/saves improve after a few better performances.

 

[CM]

I meant for a team who can’t create and score more than 60 goals in a league season splashing 55m on a new GK wasn’t going to solve anything. DDG was as good as anyone in our back line last season. You talk about front foot football yet we have players of questionable quality and consistency in many far more crucial positions when it comes to build up play. And forget the howlers from Onana, what improvements did we have from his supposed build up play quality and press resistance? Feck all. Some of you have tried to pretend that you have some superior football knowledge and the rest don’t understand front foot pressing and how teams stop pressing us and it helps the team bla bla bla. Well it all has crumbled down like the pile of shot that it
Onana has been terrible in all aspects that many criticised DDG for years. He is abysmal on crosses, shit in proactive play, absolutely dogshit on long passes, shot stopping and catching is amateur level. And no Ederson is absolutely miles ahead in every aspect. City also replaced Hart in the season after 2015/2016 which was probably one of their weakest ones in the last 10 years, still had the best attack in the league scoring 71 league goals. We had Weghorst on loan last season, from Burnley.

We bought a new goalkeeper because the old one was a dud, it's that simple. The new one hasn't covered himself in glory either, nor have the rest of the team in front of him.

Whether you want to admit it or not, Onana is quite comfortably more accomplished than De Gea on the ball. He made a bad error in midweek but De Gea radiated nervousness any time the ball was played to him and everybody in the stadium could sense it. I actually don't want to spend too much time comparing Onana to De Gea because I think we should be holding him to a higher standard than that. He needs to be a lot better than he has been so far in all aspects of his play.

Ederson is a relatively poor shot stopper in my opinion. He's nowhere near the level of Alisson, for example, but he largely gets away with it because City have a team of players who can control a game of football far better than ours. You wouldn't catch Rodri making the mistake Casemiro did against Brentford, it's a collective problem.

My attention is firmly on the manager at the moment. He did nothing to remedy the defensive problems we suffered from last season, and if anything, he's exacerbated them with the Mount signing. Our best ball players are still Luke Shaw and Lisandro Martinez, two defenders (who are now also injured), whilst none of our midfielders have the composure or football IQ to use the ball well under pressure. The recruitment is confused to me. Onana is the signing you make if you want to become a better possession team, Mount feeds into becoming more of a transition team not interested in build-up. We shouldn't have made those two signings in the same summer.

 

[Todd]

The people doubling down on this idea that Onana makes no difference to our build up play and beating the press are going to look ridiculous at some point. I reckon deep down they know it’s an absurd point, but they’re just capitalising on this moment of chaos to bask in glee.

If anyone seriously thinks that how we’re playing now is how we’re always going to play with Onana here, they’re living in dreamland. This is a moment where the defensive lineup is decimated and ever-changing, the midfield is trying to play in a new shape, and disastrous results are killing morale across the board. And the change in goalkeeper style is dramatic, even in a normal scenario you’d expect some adjustment before things click.

If you really think that’s the ideal time to judge a keeper, especially in his first 10 games, you’ve lost the plot.

Imagine if De Gea’s first 10 games defined his United career. He couldn’t even keep Lindegaard out.

All of this might be fair, but it only really pertains to Onana as a ball-player. Let's assume the the build-up play improves dramatically when we have a fully-fit side and everyone is settled. Will it really matter if Onana the shot-stopper is still letting in cheap goals every week that most top keepers stop?

I like the lad and I hope it works out for him, but the reality is that 10 matches in we're worse off with him on the pitch than we would've been had it been another season of Dave.

 

[Brwned]

All of this might be fair, but it only really pertains to Onana as a ball-player. Let's assume the the build-up play improves dramatically when we have a fully-fit side and everyone is settled. Will it really matter if Onana the shot-stopper is still letting in cheap goals every week that most top keepers stop?

I like the lad and I hope it works out for him, but the reality is that 10 matches in we're worse off with him on the pitch than we would've been had it been another season of Dave.

No-one thinks having a clown in goal is ever a worthwhile trade-off for being better at playing it out from the back. I think the expectation for Onana was that he’d be maybe Ederson-level between the posts. Last year at Inter he was maybe a bit better. The year before at Ajax he was maybe a bit worse.

What he’s doing at the moment is untenable no matter how good you are on the ball. But it’d be a real career outlier if he kept going as he is now. It’s possible he’s done a Claudio Bravo but it’s hardly the most likely outcome. I know things are grim at United at the moment, but that’s a hugely pessimistic take.

At the end of the day, everyone knew we weren’t getting peak de Gea between the sticks with Onana. But then peak de Gea disappeared a long time ago. If Onana is a worse keeper than the latter era de Gea then that’d be a shocker. If he was just as good in nets while better on the ball, that would still be a disappointment. Latter era de Gea was an obviously mediocre keeper. We should never be buying a keeper at his level.

 

[berbatrick]

Worth noting that according to the beloved psxg, he's not been terrible - he's cost the team 1 goal each in the CL and PL.

This includes yesterday, the 1st Bayern and 3rd Galatasaray goal, the Forest 1v1, where in my opinion he made clear mistakes, and more debatable ones like the Arsenal 2-1 or Bayern 4-2 or Galatasaray 1-1 where he maybe could have been more proactive.
[And of course, it doesn't include, and isn't meant to include, stuff like that red-card pass or the innocuous fumbled cross vs Galatasaray.]


Two ways to read this - he's a good shot stopper with big mistakes overshadowing great routine saves that he isn't getting credit for, or - this stat isn't that good.

 

[Litch]

Some of the stuff about what he is or isnt....hes not like hes 14yrs old. You think hes playing at Ajax and Inter based on some of the crap written about him? People think that some of the stuff wouldnt be evident by the time hes turned 26?

For me, its maybe the pressure along, the fact we have inconsistent back four and maybe a lack of form...

 

[Cassidy]

Hes not handled the pressure of filling DDGs boots. It can happen, hopefully he recovers

 

[RedCurry]

He should be stopping those shots, but he also shouldn’t be facing so many shots in the first place. The focus very much should remain on ball retention and buildup play.

 

[Oranges038]

We didn't need Onana, but we needed a keeper who is better than De Gea.

Go watch De Gea's howlers against the likes Brentford, Everton, West ham, Sevilla, City last season alone, these would be embarassing errors for a Sunday league keeper. And that's ignoring the fact he'd never claim or cross or leave his line, and couldn't pass a ball.

If De Gea was a howler-free keeper, we could forgive his weaknesses. But he became one of the most error prone keepers in the league, to go alongside his weaknesses.

De Gea literally cost us the FA cup final because he couldn't make basic saves, instead choosing to literally stand and watch the ball go into the net.

The club, as usual, have made the wrong signing, but the signing was in the right position.

In fairness, a keeper of his profile and style was desperately needed. It was between him and maybe 1 or 2 other keepers. Maybe he was the wrong choice, or maybe he's just in a bit of slump and he'll pull himself out of it.

Worth noting that according to the beloved psxg, he's not been terrible - he's cost the team 1 goal each in the CL and PL.

This includes yesterday, the 1st Bayern and 3rd Galatasaray goal, the Forest 1v1, where in my opinion he made clear mistakes, and more debatable ones like the Arsenal 2-1 or Bayern 4-2 or Galatasaray 1-1 where he maybe could have been more proactive.
[And of course, it doesn't include, and isn't meant to include, stuff like that red-card pass or the innocuous fumbled cross vs Galatasaray.]


Two ways to read this - he's a good shot stopper with big mistakes overshadowing great routine saves that he isn't getting credit for, or - this stat isn't that good.

I'm not too gone on that stat as I think there are too many variables, but it does have it's uses.

Fbref has him on -2. So far this season in all competitions he's faced 53 shots with a psxg of 15 and made 35 saves. Last season DDG faced 215 shots, so it looks like we are on target to go well over 200 shots faced again. Compare this to Alisson who has faced 36 shots, with a psxg of 9. He's conceded 7 goals. Or Pope who has a similar record to Allison.

That's not to say he shouldn't be saving some of those goals, he definitely should. But, this seems to be an ongoing theme with this Utd team, concede too many chances and at the same time concede too many chances with a higher % chance of scoring.

 

[Nickelodeon]

I’m concerned about the shot stopping and hope that’s a blip that he recovers through. He’s been around for a while and it’s unlikely his shot stopping is so poor that no one noticed. I’m also concerned about his distribution and confidence to come away from his goal to support as an additional ball player. It is something we saw in pre season but since the lob in that friendly, he seems glued to his line in a very De Gea-esque manner. Despite his poor start, he’s a strong character, I think he’ll come good. But we’ll have to manage expectations. Don’t think he’s anywhere near the leagues best.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Worth noting that according to the beloved psxg, he's not been terrible - he's cost the team 1 goal each in the CL and PL.

This includes yesterday, the 1st Bayern and 3rd Galatasaray goal, the Forest 1v1, where in my opinion he made clear mistakes, and more debatable ones like the Arsenal 2-1 or Bayern 4-2 or Galatasaray 1-1 where he maybe could have been more proactive.
[And of course, it doesn't include, and isn't meant to include, stuff like that red-card pass or the innocuous fumbled cross vs Galatasaray.]


Two ways to read this - he's a good shot stopper with big mistakes overshadowing great routine saves that he isn't getting credit for, or - this stat isn't that good.

Or our fanbase is just full of morons. He’s made 2 glaring errors - both in the CL - then there are a few instances where it’s more a case of ‘a top keeper MIGHT have kept that out’. It’s kind of weird if you think about it, had he pulled off the save against Brentford there’d be people on here saying world class save etc but because it wasn’t saved he’s a ‘donkey’. Figures.

Someone made a post super early on in this thread about how they predicted Onana’s start would be filled with errors and as soon as a big one came this exact scenario appears. Every single goal after this point - and it doesn’t really matter how good the goal is as proven because people were claiming he should have saved the Palace wonder goal - will get analysed by a fanbase looking for, and sadly as evidenced by some of the posts in this thread hoping to find, errors.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

He should be stopping those shots, but he also shouldn’t be facing so many shots in the first place. The focus very much should remain on ball retention and buildup play.

He's not even facing that many shots at the moment - last 5 games we've had 15 shots on target against us (so 3 per game).

We've conceded 5 - so one in every 3 shots on our goal goes in, which is rubbish.

 

[GueRed]

Made a couple of decent saves (tipped a couple of attempts over the bar) to keep it at 0-1.

Their goal though again he could've got a stronger hand on it

 

[Oranges038]

He's not even facing that many shots at the moment - last 5 games we've had 15 shots on target against us (so 3 per game).

We've conceded 5 - so one in every 3 shots on our goal goes in, which is rubbish.

DDG last 5 years, 919 shots on target, 280 goals conceded, that's 30%, pretty much every third shot on goal went in.

So, you'd think we'd be used to that by now, considering that's how it's been for the last 5 years.

 

[Dominos]

Or our fanbase is just full of morons. He’s made 2 glaring errors - both in the CL - then there are a few instances where it’s more a case of ‘a top keeper MIGHT have kept that out’. It’s kind of weird if you think about it, had he pulled off the save against Brentford there’d be people on here saying world class save etc but because it wasn’t saved he’s a ‘donkey’. Figures.

Someone made a post super early on in this thread about how they predicted Onana’s start would be filled with errors and as soon as a big one came this exact scenario appears. Every single goal after this point - and it doesn’t really matter how good the goal is as proven because people were claiming he should have saved the Palace wonder goal - will get analysed by a fanbase looking for, and sadly as evidenced by some of the posts in this thread hoping to find, errors.

Come on, it's absolutely criminal to allow that ball into the net against Brentford. Look at where the ball goes in the goal frame, it's basically dead centre of the goal, and it's barely got any pace on the shot.

I agree he has been unfairly getting blamed for basically every goal conceded at this point, even if they weren't his fault, even if they were unsaveable. I seen him getting stick for conceding vs Palace and the first 2 goals against Brighton, and the 4th vs Bayern, which is just ridiculous. The massive deflection against Arsenal I also think it's harsh to blame the keeper.

But there are clear howlers in shot stopping for Bayern's first goal, and Brentford's goal. There was a clear howler against Galatasaray with the bad pass.

The 3rd goal conceded against Brighton you'd also expect decent keepers to save, again it's gone in nearly the centre of the goal. I'd put this down as an error rather than a howler.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Come on, it's absolutely criminal to allow that ball into the net against Brentford. Look at where the ball goes in the goal frame, it's basically dead centre of the goal, and it's barely got any pace on the shot.

I agree he has been unfairly getting blamed for basically every goal conceded at this point, even if they weren't his fault, even if they were unsaveable. I seen him getting stick for conceding vs Palace and the first 2 goals against Brighton, and the 4th vs Bayern, which is just ridiculous. The massive deflection against Arsenal I also think it's harsh to blame the keeper.

But there are clear howlers in shot stopping for Bayern's first goal, and Brentford's goal. There was a clear howler against Galatasaray with the bad pass.

The 3rd goal conceded against Brighton you'd also expect decent keepers to save, again it's gone in nearly the centre of the goal. I'd put this down as an error rather than a howler.

That Brentford goal you see all the time though. Hand on your heart, if that was his first game for us, would you be calling it 'criminal'?

You could say peak DDG would likely save it (true but hardy relevant) but it's basically a free shot from about the distance of the penalty spot, comes through 2 players and is deflected off Lindelof's arse, he gets a hand to it but it squirms in. On the scale of what constitutes a criminal error it seems harsh.

Re Brighton goal, some artistic liberties describing it as going 'in the centre of the goal' given the fact, even if you think Onana could save it, the ball hits the back corner of the net via slight deflection from him. On that one I think you can, moreso than the Brentford one, say there's a question mark on his technique (most GK's agree you get an extra bit of reach going with the hand over the top there) so I would agree there's an argument, albeit it's not very conclusive, that that goal is an "error". Although with all these examples, the main error is on how we're letting opposition player have uncontested shots in our box.

In my mind he's had one GK howler (Bayern) and the terrible pass (Gala), then two instances where you could say there's a slight question mark in the PL as described above. This is behind a constantly changing and poor quality back 4 with a team that is committing a multitude of individual errors, many of which start further up the pitch. He's mid table looking at stats for % of saves from shots against him, he's middle of the pack with PSxG, when you think of how much flak he's getting for his PL performances I find it really weird.

 

[Ted Lasso]

The people doubling down on this idea that Onana makes no difference to our build up play and beating the press are going to look ridiculous at some point. I reckon deep down they know it’s an absurd point, but they’re just capitalising on this moment of chaos to bask in glee.

He really hasn't so far. It's night and day versus him at Inter. And remarkably you have better ball playing GKing going on in the bottom half of the table right now with £5M keepers.

Imagine if De Gea’s first 10 games defined his United career. He couldn’t even keep Lindegaard out.

All of the weaknesses that were assessed in that phase for De Gea continued to be major weak points for him throughout his career. It's just that what he was good at was so exceptional that it outweighed it for a decade.

Onana's standout skillset is playing the ball. Which he has not done well since the season start and in fact has cost us a goal. His weakness is actual goalkeeping, the most important skillset of a...drumroll .. goalkeeper. And that has cost us several goals.

 

[mu4c_20le]

The people doubling down on this idea that Onana makes no difference to our build up play and beating the press are going to look ridiculous at some point. I reckon deep down they know it’s an absurd point, but they’re just capitalising on this moment of chaos to bask in glee.

If anyone seriously thinks that how we’re playing now is how we’re always going to play with Onana here, they’re living in dreamland. This is a moment where the defensive lineup is decimated and ever-changing, the midfield is trying to play in a new shape, and disastrous results are killing morale across the board. And the change in goalkeeper style is dramatic, even in a normal scenario you’d expect some adjustment before things click.

If you really think that’s the ideal time to judge a keeper, especially in his first 10 games, you’ve lost the plot.

Imagine if De Gea’s first 10 games defined his United career. He couldn’t even keep Lindegaard out.

Strange hill to die on. Even if he eventually comes good and manages to do what he does best, he'll still be a Claudio Bravo type, he will still struggle to save low shots and it remains to be seen if he'll ever get his balls back and actually leave his line to sweep. Let alone make basic saves like any other goalkeeper.

 

[DWelbz19]

The recruitment is confused to me. Onana is the signing you make if you want to become a better possession team, Mount feeds into becoming more of a transition team not interested in build-up. We shouldn't have made those two signings in the same summer.

I think this is the key point. We've spent big on a short ball playing CB and a ball playing goalkeeper to improve our build-up from the back, but then as soon as we get into midfield it's almost always a trio of players who just want to get it forward as quickly as they can and force play. It's all a blur and a mishmash of styles.

This is what happens when you let a manager run recruitment entirely by himself and a huge focus of those players being players managed by his agent...

 

[Idxomer]

Onana's standout skillset is playing the ball. Which he has not done well since the season start and in fact has cost us a goal. His weakness is actual goalkeeping, the most important skillset of a...drumroll .. goalkeeper. And that has cost us several goals.

Not a fact.

 

[Dominos]

That Brentford goal you see all the time though. Hand on your heart, if that was his first game for us, would you be calling it 'criminal'?

You could say peak DDG would likely save it (true but hardy relevant) but it's basically a free shot from about the distance of the penalty spot, comes through 2 players and is deflected off Lindelof's arse, he gets a hand to it but it squirms in. On the scale of what constitutes a criminal error it seems harsh.

Re Brighton goal, some artistic liberties describing it as going 'in the centre of the goal' given the fact, even if you think Onana could save it, the ball hits the back corner of the net via slight deflection from him. On that one I think you can, moreso than the Brentford one, say there's a question mark on his technique (most GK's agree you get an extra bit of reach going with the hand over the top there) so I would agree there's an argument, albeit it's not very conclusive, that that goal is an "error". Although with all these examples, the main error is on how we're letting opposition player have uncontested shots in our box.

In my mind he's had one GK howler (Bayern) and the terrible pass (Gala), then two instances where you could say there's a slight question mark in the PL as described above. This is behind a constantly changing and poor quality back 4 with a team that is committing a multitude of individual errors, many of which start further up the pitch. He's mid table looking at stats for % of saves from shots against him, he's middle of the pack with PSxG, when you think of how much flak he's getting for his PL performances I find it really weird.

Yes it would be criminal whether it's 1st game or 11th game. That doesn't mean a player can't be forgiven for making a mistake early on in his United career, but it's still a mistake.

De Gea was conceding stupid soft goals like this for the last 5 years of his career, the mistakes against Brentford, West Ham, Everton, and City from De Gea last season are examples of goals he has to save but he lets them trickle into his net. This is part of the reason why he had to be replaced, he was making too many errors in what was meant to be his strongest area (shot stopping). 2014-2018 he wasn't really making such errors.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Yes it would be criminal whether it's 1st game or 11th game. That doesn't mean a player can't be forgiven for making a mistake early on in his United career, but it's still a mistake.

De Gea was conceding stupid soft goals like this for the last 5 years of his career, the mistakes against Brentford, West Ham, Everton, and City from De Gea last season are examples of goals he has to save but he lets them trickle into his net. This is part of the reason why he had to be replaced, he was making too many errors in what was meant to be his strongest area (shot stopping). 2014-2018 he wasn't really making such errors.

I guess we disagree on the use of the word criminal. You'll find no argument with me re DDG's issues, I do think some on here essentially still remember him pre previous World Cup with rose tinted specs on.

 

[Brwned]

He really hasn't so far. It's night and day versus him at Inter. And remarkably you have better ball playing GKing going on in the bottom half of the table right now with £5M keepers.


All of the weaknesses that were assessed in that phase for De Gea continued to be major weak points for him throughout his career. It's just that what he was good at was so exceptional that it outweighed it for a decade.

Onana's standout skillset is playing the ball. Which he has not done well since the season start and in fact has cost us a goal. His weakness is actual goalkeeping, the most important skillset of a...drumroll .. goalkeeper. And that has cost us several goals.

De Gea in the early stages wasn’t exceptional at anything. He had some great reflexes but his shot stopping was not at all exceptional. His handling from shots was decent, but at his peak it was exceptional. He was ok at one on ones, but by the time he was saving 3 one on ones in a single game vs Liverpool, that side of his game was excellent. In general he was more error prone, and suffered from a lack of confidence. At this peak he made very few errors and shrugged them off quickly. This wasn’t constant throughout his career, he regressed at the end, once he lost some self belief. Like Onana now.

I get what you’re saying in that his fundamentals didn’t change. He was always weak, he didn’t like crosses, he always kept close to his line; all true. But I think you underestimate just how much better he got with ball handling and one on ones, even with the same fundamentals. You’re a much better player when you’re playing with confidence in a settled team. De Gea showed that.

No doubt some of the criticisms of Onana’s fundamentals will remain true over time. It’s just that people forget the other criticisms are nowhere near as permanent as people suggest.

 

[Highfather_24]

I think this is the key point. We've spent big on a short ball playing CB and a ball playing goalkeeper to improve our build-up from the back, but then as soon as we get into midfield it's almost always a trio of players who just want to get it forward as quickly as they can and force play. It's all a blur and a mishmash of styles.

This is what happens when you let a manager run recruitment entirely by himself and a huge focus of those players being players managed by his agent...

That's the problem when your DOF isnt a football man, and cant see blatant things like this.

 

[Ubik]

I think this is the key point. We've spent big on a short ball playing CB and a ball playing goalkeeper to improve our build-up from the back, but then as soon as we get into midfield it's almost always a trio of players who just want to get it forward as quickly as they can and force play. It's all a blur and a mishmash of styles.

This is what happens when you let a manager run recruitment entirely by himself and a huge focus of those players being players managed by his agent...

Which players are these?

 

[Brwned]

I think this is the key point. We've spent big on a short ball playing CB and a ball playing goalkeeper to improve our build-up from the back, but then as soon as we get into midfield it's almost always a trio of players who just want to get it forward as quickly as they can and force play. It's all a blur and a mishmash of styles.

This is what happens when you let a manager run recruitment entirely by himself and a huge focus of those players being players managed by his agent...

Theoretically, having the manager buy his own players should lead to more cohesion and a group of players that fit his style best. Even if he's a bad judge of talent, it should lead to the right fit. That's supposed to be the positive upside, with the obvious negative being that once he leaves, the new manager might not find these players to his liking. It seems a bit strange that he's been given such influence over recruitment, and yet still struggles to mould a team in his image...

 

[Taribo's Gap]

Worth noting that according to the beloved psxg, he's not been terrible - he's cost the team 1 goal each in the CL and PL.

This includes yesterday, the 1st Bayern and 3rd Galatasaray goal, the Forest 1v1, where in my opinion he made clear mistakes, and more debatable ones like the Arsenal 2-1 or Bayern 4-2 or Galatasaray 1-1 where he maybe could have been more proactive.
[And of course, it doesn't include, and isn't meant to include, stuff like that red-card pass or the innocuous fumbled cross vs Galatasaray.]


Two ways to read this - he's a good shot stopper with big mistakes overshadowing great routine saves that he isn't getting credit for, or - this stat isn't that good.

After the latest game he is now ranked 19th in the Prem in this stat. There are only 5 keepers that have played in the Prem who are ranked lower than him. Two of them play for Brighton and cannot play at the same time, one of them was playing in League One last season and is extremely young for a keeper and another is Aaron Ramsdale who has been dropped. In the CL, he is 30th out of the 34 keepers than have played.

How can this be classed as anything other than terrible shotstopping right now? Good shot stoppers simply cannot make as many blunders as he has been making with the frequency with which he has been making them. And the quality of the saves he has otherwise been making does not seem to be high enough to counterbalance these blunders, so they are likely just fairly basic saves that any top league keeper should be making. What is a "great routine" save, even? Seems a bit contradictory.

He shouldn't really be getting credit for making basic saves that any keeper should be expected to do, but if he can actually get to that level and make basic saves consistently, that might actually be a fine level of shotstopping for a keeper of his profile, assuming the team can adjust a bit more to optimize for his other talents.

Maybe the stat just isn't that good, as you suggest, but even on the eye test I can't recall any saves that have been all that special.

 

[DWelbz19]

Which players are these?

Hojlund and Amrabat this summer. They also represent the manager. There were articles circulating a few weeks ago about this agency (SEG) being the instant go-to for all things transfer related this summer, be it incoming or outgoings. Apparently his son also works as an analyst for the agency too. Somewhat normal for a club to have preferential ties to one agency, but this definitely seems more connected than usual.

Theoretically, having the manager buy his own players should lead to more cohesion and a group of players that fit his style best. Even if he's a bad judge of talent, it should lead to the right fit. That's supposed to be the positive upside, with the obvious negative being that once he leaves, the new manager might not find these players to his liking. It seems a bit strange that he's been given such influence over recruitment, and yet still struggles to mould a team in his image...

Yeah, I think this is correct, I was being a little polite/not wanting to shite on the manager too much. Though there are instances where managers aren't the best judge on recruitment -- the usual examples with Klopp and Pep getting a few of their first choice targets wrong and actually ending up with players who are actually way better fits.

 

[RedRonaldo]

He has a golden foot and butter hands.

 

[Mercurial]

After the latest game he is now ranked 19th in the Prem in this stat. There are only 5 keepers that have played in the Prem who are ranked lower than him. Two of them play for Brighton and cannot play at the same time, one of them was playing in League One last season and is extremely young for a keeper and another is Aaron Ramsdale who has been dropped. In the CL, he is 30th out of the 34 keepers than have played.

How can this be classed as anything other than terrible shotstopping right now? Good shot stoppers simply cannot make as many blunders as he has been making with the frequency with which he has been making them. And the quality of the saves he has otherwise been making does not seem to be high enough to counterbalance these blunders, so they are likely just fairly basic saves that any top league keeper should be making. What is a "great routine" save, even? Seems a bit contradictory.

He shouldn't really be getting credit for making basic saves that any keeper should be expected to do, but if he can actually get to that level and make basic saves consistently, that might actually be a fine level of shotstopping for a keeper of his profile, assuming the team can adjust a bit more to optimize for his other talents.

Maybe the stat just isn't that good, as you suggest, but even on the eye test I can't recall any saves that have been all that special.

He is a goalie that spent most years in Eredivisie and one year behind an Inter 10 that did 2 goals for every 1 brain fart of his.
We got rickrolled.

 

[redadri]

As a United I really want to believe that Onana is going to work out but my head tells me he’ll be out of the team and gone by the end of the season…He’s not what this team needs at this precise moment in time when the team is weak
TRUE - He’s a handy distributor and yes perfect for quick breaks, but he’s not strong enough without the right defence in front of him….until United are a strong defensive unit and solid through the midfield he is not going to be the right man.I don’t think he is a good enough a goal saver overall and it’s being proven with every passing week.
For that reason his confidence is going to continue to slide and he’s going to be dropped in the next 4 weeks ….

 

[Litch]

Made a couple of decent saves (tipped a couple of attempts over the bar) to keep it at 0-1.

Their goal though again he could've got a stronger hand on it

Yep, it wasnt a stronger hand, he tried to flip it away from danger and got it completely wrong....

 

[edgecutter]

I'm starting lose patience with him. There are mistakes in every game that he plays ans these have become very costly

 

[Blood Mage]

Seen nothing to suggest he's good enough. We're stuck with him for now though and I doubt our backup keepers are good enough to justify dropping him either.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Two ways to read this - he's a good shot stopper with big mistakes overshadowing great routine saves that he isn't getting credit for, or - this stat isn't that good.

What is a "great routine" save, even? Seems a bit contradictory.

Yeah that part confused me as well. Feels like a freudian slip because his defenders have been bigging up fairly routine saves because he sometimes makes an exaggerated dive if the shot isn't straight at him.

What I found interesting is that at least three different pundits have suggested that he is in fact unsettling the defense, rather than the other way around. Obviously some of the goals were down to the team giving away the ball but it's still interesting to hear from those who have played at the highest level.

Chris Sutton

'When you watch Match of the Day, people like to strip goals back and say 'there was a mistake in midfield, a misplaced pass, [Victor] Lindelof could have done better…'

'The bottom line is, over the years, Manchester United have had great goalkeeper - Peter Schmeichel, even David de Gea.

'De Gea was a far better goalkeeper than Onana but if Onana just does his job - and it wasn't a difficult save to make - then there's not an issue.

'I think he is bringing increased pressure on the whole team and the truth is he is not good enough for Manchester United and they have made a major rick [mistake] getting him in.'

Garth Crooks

"It's hard enough trying to win matches when your goalkeeper is in good form, but when he's making errors almost on a weekly basis it makes life very difficult for all concerned.

"Especially when you've had Peter Schmeichel, Edwin van der Sar and David de Gea keeping goal for you during the past 20 years, it becomes very conspicuous when you have a goalkeeper who is not in their class.

"In fact, Andre Onana is not even on their planet.

"Since the arrival of the Manchester United keeper, he's been either smashing into centre-forwards, letting the ball slip through his fingers or, as was the case against Brentford, beaten by a shot a schoolboy would have been expected to save."

Peter Schmeichel

“I’m trying to speak to him about what it’s like to be at Manchester United, what you have to take.

“Whatever you’ve made, you have to put it in a box straight away and put it to the side. So you make a mistake in a game, it might be a mistake we see, it might be a mistake that we don’t see, but you wait to think about it and analyse it until after the game or at night or whatever. You have to be there for the next moment, if you’re not you’ll make the next mistake.

“And now he’s upset the whole team. Now they will even more not trust him, and my god, it’s not good.”