[Zumbi]

Half of this has nothing to do with Amad, at some point we need to ban talking about EtH in player 24/25 performance threads.

Amad didn’t play much last season because he was injured and the coaches (who are far more qualified than anyone on the cafe) decided he wasn’t ready yet.

Let’s hope Amad can keep performing like he is now! under completely different circumstances.

Pointing out EtH played Maz once in a European game is hardly concrete proof the manager didn’t rate Amad.

Valencia Shin Crosses has already pointed out that he was fit and available for half the season and still barely played, even when the players ahead of him were performing poorly.

Making out like it’s just that one Maz example is disingenuous - that’s just the most egregious example in a pattern of him repeatedly playing other players ahead of him, so it’s abundantly clear ETH didn’t rate him as much as Amorim does. And so people are justified in making that comparison.

 

[AR87]

Personally I was intrigued to see Mazraoui further up front as he is a talented player. It was an experiment that was used for 1 match, can't even remember if he played there for the full 90 minutes?

But with your logic I guess EtH hated all the attackers in the club when he choose to play a full back in an attacking role 'once'. But that's for another thread, the EtH bashing is still very much alive and kicking on the Cafe, but we can disagree on that point no problem.

Amad's time has arrived now! I choose to believe that is the natural course of his development, and I hope what we are seeing is a genuine talent and not just someone having a purple patch.

He subbed Antony on ahead of Amad in the game and he was going to be an unused sub until Antony was injured. The entire course of events in that match were a complete disgrace and a slap in the face to Amad.

 

[RuudTom83]

Valencia Shin Crosses has already pointed out that he was fit and available for half the season and still barely played, even when the players ahead of him were performing poorly.

Making out like it’s just that one Maz example is disingenuous - he repeatedly played other players ahead of him, so it’s abundantly clear ETH didn’t rate him as much as Amorim does. And so people are justified in making that comparison.

Just going around in circles now. I didn’t mention Maz first so there is nothing disingenuous about my post.

Luckily EtH played Amad for the first 6 matches this season to kick start Amad season. Ruud and Amorim have helped continue Amad’s good season.

For the 3rd post in a row let’s hope he continues progressing, and keeps up the good work.

 

[Apokalips]

I love me some 15/16 Martial, but his best was 19/20 imo, where he turned into the complete modern #9 with elite link-up, hold up and finishing. That version of him with Amad would be utterly unplayable, you could almost throw in any other relatively competent player to finish up the front three as they would always have bags of space from the attention of the former duo.

Just for the fun of it to finish this thought experiment, my unpopular opinion of an interesting Amorim type front three with Amad and 19/20 Anto.

Martial
Mkhitaryan Amad​

Both versions of Martial were fun, I am so gutted he broke down with the injuries and never kicked on.

As for Mkhi...not sure he'd be ideal in anyone's set up as he just wasn't special. Pogba, Mata and Bruno, among many others, are far superior talents we've had that would be better in that role.

 

[SungSam7]

I love me some 15/16 Martial, but his best was 19/20 imo, where he turned into the complete modern #9 with elite link-up, hold up and finishing. That version of him with Amad would be utterly unplayable, you could almost throw in any other relatively competent player to finish up the front three as they would always have bags of space from the attention of the former duo.

Just for the fun of it to finish this thought experiment, my unpopular opinion of an interesting Amorim type front three with Amad and 19/20 Anto.

Martial
Mkhitaryan Amad​

Mhiki couldn't find his way home with a SATNAV. His link up play was medicore at times and played well very rarely.

Asking for attacks to play through him? Might as well ask for Tom Cleverly back.

 

[Zumbi]

Pointing out EtH played Maz once in a European game is hardly concrete proof the manager didn’t rate Amad.

Just going around in circles now. I didn’t mention Maz first so there is nothing disingenuous about my post.

Luckily EtH played Amad for the first 6 matches this season to kick start Amad season. Ruud and Amorim have helped continue Amad’s good season.

For the 3rd post in a row let’s hope he continues progressing, and keeps up the good work.

You insinuated it was that one example that posters were using as evidence to show ETH didn't rate Amad, ignoring the fact that posters have explicitly explained on these very pages in their back and forth with you and Pogue Mahone that it wasn’t just that example, that there was, in fact, a pattern of ETH overlooking him in favour of other players. So yes, that is disingenuous.

 

[Grande]

I don't disagree with your general sentiment but then you've contradicted your original point of pressing on touch being potentially harder to 'master', which wasn't the main issue I was trying to address anyways. As you've concluded, it's a combination of factors, all of which if I had to simplify was just simply bad coaching and not necessarily due to skill/ability/time to learn. The fact Amorim has come in and seemingly fixed some of our issues regarding control (which 2 of our previous managers just simply abandoned or did not coach the team to care enough about) proves there are systemic things that can be managed when the top guy is showing them these things.

Were not so far apart, I think, when I wanted to say there is a difference between having learnt pressing on touch and mastering it, I was not thinking of being ‘a master’ but rather being able to do it regularily without other priorities interfering with it. Which seems to me the main reason why it’s not only Utd players, but an enormous heap of professional footballers who fail to execute this concept a lot, even if I suspect they have been taught it, probably many times.

For me, I think it’s the priority juggling that is the main issue, also for Utd players. I temember well that for quite extended periods, Ten Hag had us pressing more effectively than any coach before (or so fsr, after), in fact, most of our chances hailed from high turnovers in these periods. Whereas in other periods under the same guy, our pressing was so disharmonious as to be the main source of our opponents dangerous attacks. Same guy, same methods, but a lot of different problems to solve at once, which in the long run, he couldn’t of course. But to say he didn’t focus enough or coach well enough or detailed enough on effective pressing, I don’t think that was an issue with him. He just couldn’t help our players juggle the right balls in the right order at the right times. At leadt that’s my main take on it.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Were not so far apart, I think, when I wanted to say there is a difference between having learnt pressing on touch and mastering it, I was not thinking of being ‘a master’ but rather being able to do it regularily without other priorities interfering with it. Which seems to me the main reason why it’s not only Utd players, but an enormous heap of professional footballers who fail to execute this concept a lot, even if I suspect they have been taught it, probably many times.

For me, I think it’s the priority juggling that is the main issue, also for Utd players. I temember well that for quite extended periods, Ten Hag had us pressing more effectively than any coach before (or so fsr, after), in fact, most of our chances hailed from high turnovers in these periods. Whereas in other periods under the same guy, our pressing was so disharmonious as to be the main source of our opponents dangerous attacks. Same guy, same methods, but a lot of different problems to solve at once, which in the long run, he couldn’t of course. But to say he didn’t focus enough or coach well enough or detailed enough on effective pressing, I don’t think that was an issue with him. He just couldn’t help our players juggle the right balls in the right order at the right times. At leadt that’s my main take on it.

That make sense in theory but is generous when you consider the reality specifically regarding ETH. Our pressing under him was mostly about players being committed, physical and just throwing caution to the wing with numbers i.e it was less to do with structure, technique and patterns (doesn't this all sound familiar?). That's not to say those things are not needed or that it can't be effective but it wasn't conducive to long term consistency. We played 4-2-4/4-1-5 style formations because the approach was to allow everyone not named Casemiro to dive themselves literally and figuratively into duels/spaces in the opposition half etc with little care about control and success-rate-relative-to-the-cost.

I probably should retract or modify my initial comment about 'I don't know why a lot of footballers don't do press on touch' to say I was mostly frustrated by the efforts of our own players. In general, I would say the technique of duelling/pressing on touch in the PL (and thus all teams bar ours) to be of a good standard.

So in conclusion, I will double down and say our previous managers had their priorities wrong, didn't know how to and/or were just shite at coaching our players. Perhaps it's confirmation bias but I am see an improvement in our pressing in terms of the triggers and approach in some players. For example Hojlund and Garnacho are not getting square and forcing the free lane of the player with the ball, so that we can then box in on one side etc. Conversely, our approach to defending corners have been really bad because whilst I don't mind the zonal approach, I think it's happened far too many times now where our players are just jumping from the spot whilst competing for aerials from the opposition that have a running jump or momentum. This should be another quick win/fix, so I'm interested to see how/when Amorim fixes this, although I do acknowledge he is rotating the squad every week and has minimal training time in between games.

 

[AR87]

That make sense in theory but is generous when you consider the reality specifically regarding ETH. Our pressing under him was mostly about players being committed, physical and just throwing caution to the wing with numbers i.e it was less to do with structure, technique and patterns (doesn't this all sound familiar?). That's not to say those things are not needed or that it can't be effective but it wasn't conducive to long term consistency. We played 4-2-4/4-1-5 style formations because the approach was to allow everyone not named Casemiro to dive themselves literally and figuratively into duels/spaces in the opposition half etc with little care about control and success-rate-relative-to-the-cost.

I probably should retract or modify my initial comment about 'I don't know why a lot of footballers don't do press on touch' to say I was mostly frustrated by the efforts of our own players. In general, I would say the technique of duelling/pressing on touch in the PL (and thus all teams bar ours) to be pretty good.

So in conclusion, I will double down and say our previous managers had their priorities wrong, didn't know how to or were just shite at coaching our players. Perhaps it's confirmation bias but I am see an improvement in our pressing in terms of the triggers and approach in some players. For example Hojlund and Garnacho are not getting square and forcing the free lane of the player with the ball, so that we can then box in on one side etc. Conversely, our approach to defending corners have been really bad because whilst I don't mind the zonal approach, I think it's happened far too many times now where our players are just jumping from the spot whilst competing for aerials from the opposition that have a running jump or momentum. This should be another quick win/fix, so I'm interested to see how/when Amorim fixes this, although I do acknowledge he is rotating the squad every week and has minimal training time in between games.

Great post

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Half of this has nothing to do with Amad, at some point we need to ban talking about EtH in player 24/25 performance threads.

Amad didn’t play much last season because he was injured and the coaches (who are far more qualified than anyone on the cafe) decided he wasn’t ready yet.

Let’s hope Amad can keep performing like he is now! under completely different circumstances.

Pointing out EtH played Maz once in a European game is hardly concrete proof the manager didn’t rate Amad.

It was a point raised among other points that make it obvious he didn't rate the player. Not sure why you are strawmanning arguments so hard to defend what seems pretty clear.

And the old "coaches are more qualified" nonsense gets disproven time and again. Sometimes they are just flat wrong and a random fan can be right.

That make sense in theory but is generous when you consider the reality specifically regarding ETH. Our pressing under him was mostly about players being committed, physical and just throwing caution to the wing with numbers i.e it was less to do with structure, technique and patterns (doesn't this all sound familiar?). That's not to say those things are not needed or that it can't be effective but it wasn't conducive to long term consistency. We played 4-2-4/4-1-5 style formations because the approach was to allow everyone not named Casemiro to dive themselves literally and figuratively into duels/spaces in the opposition half etc with little care about control and success-rate-relative-to-the-cost.

I probably should retract or modify my initial comment about 'I don't know why a lot of footballers don't do press on touch' to say I was mostly frustrated by the efforts of our own players. In general, I would say the technique of duelling/pressing on touch in the PL (and thus all teams bar ours) to be of a good standard.

So in conclusion, I will double down and say our previous managers had their priorities wrong, didn't know how to and/or were just shite at coaching our players. Perhaps it's confirmation bias but I am see an improvement in our pressing in terms of the triggers and approach in some players. For example Hojlund and Garnacho are not getting square and forcing the free lane of the player with the ball, so that we can then box in on one side etc. Conversely, our approach to defending corners have been really bad because whilst I don't mind the zonal approach, I think it's happened far too many times now where our players are just jumping from the spot whilst competing for aerials from the opposition that have a running jump or momentum. This should be another quick win/fix, so I'm interested to see how/when Amorim fixes this, although I do acknowledge he is rotating the squad every week and has minimal training time in between games.

Good post. I remember many pointing to the "leading in turnovers high up the pitch" stat as a feather in ETH's cap at the time but as you said, it was more indicative that we were just constantly willing to play a suicidal game of hot potato in hopes that we'd come out on top in the end. We seem far more measured in how we approach pressing the opposition now and where we want to swarm them, which both keeps us more solid in our shape as well as conserves energy and doesn't turn the game into chaos. Seems to be a bit of a trend around the league too.

 

[Orange Tree]

Amad got some chances at the start of the season, but got dropped easily after the result wasn't favorable.

I remember we looked pretty good against Palace, but lacked end product, then we just reverted back to chaos ball. I think Ten Hag prefer a more direct winger for his chaos ball.

 

[Strachan8]

That was never a thing for me as I saw him have some absolute stinkers for Sunderland. Mainly in the playoff match against Luton. He's not had one here but I wouldn't be surprised to see him have one either. Everyone does so it's nothing against him.

For me, his importance was more about the balance he'd bring to the team. Every attacker we were playing was too direct. Having someone like Amad who's unselfish in his play, thrives on linking-up with others which, in turn, elevates them, and just his general play in terms of being good under pressure is why I wanted him to start.

If we bring in more players of this ilk, it will not only improve us as a team but will naturally elevate Amad, too, as he's the type that thrives on playing with similar players.

100%.

Astonishing that ETH couldn't identify this obvious point ie 2 super direct attackers implies a lot of turnovers of possession with the resulting added pressure on the midfield at a time when casimero’s legs had gone!

 

[Rossa]

Half of this has nothing to do with Amad, at some point we need to ban talking about EtH in player 24/25 performance threads.

Amad didn’t play much last season because he was injured and the coaches (who are far more qualified than anyone on the cafe) decided he wasn’t ready yet.

Let’s hope Amad can keep performing like he is now! under completely different circumstances.

Pointing out EtH played Maz once in a European game is hardly concrete proof the manager didn’t rate Amad.

It’s not concrete proof, but it’s more proof than what you’re saying. There is a fact that he played Garnacho, Antony and Rashford as right wingers over Amad, even though none mastered it - except Garnacho for a brief spell. Then there is the bizarre Mazraoui as a 10. This was all done whilst Amad was ready to play. No concrete evidence, but more so than “the coaches knew better” argument.

There may have been a master plan at work, but it’s not bashing ETH, it’s rightfully questioning those decisions. In hindsight, the question seems legit. Then you could argue that it has given Amad time to increase his physicality as he appears both stronger and faster.

 

[Rossa]

Amad got some chances at the start of the season, but got dropped easily after the result wasn't favorable.

I remember we looked pretty good against Palace, but lacked end product, then we just reverted back to chaos ball. I think Ten Hag prefer a more direct winger for his chaos ball.

But Amad under Amorim is very direct…

 

[Bondi77]

Interesting if we plays wingback against Kerkez.

 

[Red Rash]

Interesting if we plays wingback against Kerkez.

Kind of hopes he plays as an AM as he is our biggest attacking threat right now and the closer we get him to goal the better. That being said as long as he plays I'm fine even if it's wingback.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

Personally I was intrigued to see Mazraoui further up front as he is a talented player. It was an experiment that was used for 1 match, can't even remember if he played there for the full 90 minutes?

But with your logic I guess EtH hated all the attackers in the club when he choose to play a full back in an attacking role 'once'. But that's for another thread, the EtH bashing is still very much alive and kicking on the Cafe, but we can disagree on that point no problem.

Amad's time has arrived now! I choose to believe that is the natural course of his development, and I hope what we are seeing is a genuine talent and not just someone having a purple patch.

Ten Hag was shit and deserves to be bashed for his treatment of Amad and his managerial performances in the League and Europe.

I get bashed if I do a shit job at work. So should he. He doesn’t deserve a pedestal.

————
Anyway, looking forward to seeing Amad today. First name on the team sheet alongside Mazraoui and Ugarte at the moment.

 

[superdry]

Never seen a player who can launch himself at defenders/goalkeepers and come out of it positively, he’s like a nuclear reaction. Let’s hope we can keep him fit.

 

[Hammondo]

But Amad under Amorim is very direct…

He mixes it up. He's probably our most comfortable player slowing down play and stopping a direct attack.

 

[Hammondo]

Ten Hag was shit and deserves to be bashed for his treatment of Amad and his managerial performances in the League and Europe.

I get bashed if I do a shit job at work. So should he. He doesn’t deserve a pedestal.

————
Anyway, looking forward to seeing Amad today. First name on the team sheet alongside Mazraoui and Ugarte at the moment.

I agree, all 3 are playing some really good stuff

I think our defence is generally doing well outside of corners.

But midfield, left wingback, and attack needs some work. 1-2 new players could make a huge difference.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

I agree, all 3 are playing some really good stuff

I think our defence is generally doing well outside of corners.

But midfield, left wingback, and attack needs some work. 1-2 new players could make a huge difference.

Yes for sure. LWB and also that left 10. Someone in the mould of a Wirtz would be magical.

 

[Rossa]

He mixes it up. He's probably our most comfortable player slowing down play and stopping a direct attack.

For sure, but my point was that he can be very direct and great at counter attacking when he wants to and play more of a passing game when required - probably more natural to him

 

[RuudTom83]

Ten Hag was shit and deserves to be bashed for his treatment of Amad and his managerial performances in the League and Europe.

I get bashed if I do a shit job at work. So should he. He doesn’t deserve a pedestal.

————
Anyway, looking forward to seeing Amad today. First name on the team sheet alongside Mazraoui and Ugarte at the moment.

Personally I think Amad has been development at the right pace and is progressing wonderfully. I have far more issues with Garnacho/Mainoo development who were played far to often. But that's a new topic entirely. EtH is still a hot topic and as the last few pages have shown it's hard to agree on Amad so lets leave it there.

As you I'm looking forward to seeing Amad in the freezing cold again today. C'mon United

 

[sglowrider]

The biggest mystery of 2024 solved:



Erik Nepo Hag

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

The biggest mystery of 2024 solved:



Erik Nepo Hag

Damn

But the best part is about Amad not giving up and working hard to improve

 

[sglowrider]

Damn

But the best part is about Amad not giving up and working hard to improve

Ruud I am sure recognised it early on too -- the discrimination -- and was a good picker-upper and confidence builder for Amad during that challenging period under ETH.

 

[sullydnl]

I think we look better with him at wingback.

Without real attacking/creative threat from that position the team as a whole looks much too stolid, and whatever extra you might get out of Amad at #10 just isn't worth the trade-off of having Dalot/Malacia in the starting eleven in place of an extra attacker like Garnacho or whoever.

 

[Bestie07]

He was poor today I thought. All our attackers were.

 

[Frank Grimes]

His shooting is poor. Gets himself in great positions but has to improve his shooting.

 

[Dominos]

Hope he improves his shooting. Feel like he looked to have a great shot on him as Sunderland but it's been the weakest aspect of his game this season.

His corners are so much better than Bruno's.

 

[Yagami]

He is a chance making machine. People say he was poor but he should have had at least 1 assist today. Probably 2.

 

[The_Midfielder]

He is a chance making machine. People say he was poor but he should have had at least 1 assist today. Probably 2.

He should have 2 and his corners were amazing too..
Bruno should have had 2 goals 2 assists too Today ..
We should be finishing those chances ..
That Bruno shot Kepa saved
2 Garnacho chances
Bruno, Maz all shooting to row Z
Those should be going in ..

 

[jem]

Below par for him and yet the only player who looked like creating something.

 

[Idxomer]

Some good dribbling and passing, and some bad touches and finishing.

 

[ValenciasDrilledCrosses]

Finishing was shocking. Still our most positive player by far. He should take all of our corners from now on, even from the left side. 10x better than Bruno at them.

 

[Dominos]

Finishing was shocking. Still our most positive player by far. He should take all of our corners from now on, even from the left side. 10x better than Bruno at them.

I don't like outswingers but surely our coaches must realise an outswinger is far better than Bruno hitting the first defender every single time.

 

[lost7]

His shooting has been so poor this season, needs to get that sorted out asap. Should have scored at least 1 if not 2 goals today.

Only positives today were his corners, really excellent

 

[jem]

His shooting has been so poor this season, needs to get that sorted out asap. Should have scored at least 1 if not 2 goals today.

Only positives today were his corners, really excellent

He had a few nice dribbles and also set up Bruno for a golden scoring opportunity

 

[lex talionis]

Well off today but still our best player.

 

[Insanity]

I like him better when he is playing as a psuedo right winger where he can run with the ball, dribble, press to win the ball from the FB and cause damage.