Silva
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he made a facebook face a couple of weeks ago about how if Theresa May kept it up he'd have to do something about itDoes he predict these interventions before the events occur?
he made a facebook face a couple of weeks ago about how if Theresa May kept it up he'd have to do something about itDoes he predict these interventions before the events occur?
does he have to pay for the repairs then?Tweet
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Meh, too vague.he made a facebook face a couple of weeks ago about how if Theresa May kept it up he'd have to do something about it
The colour is keyI've been in this thread too long. Can't tell when posters are joking or serious, whether we are staying or leaving, whether I'm coming or going....
You're right that it's not the only one and remainers might overestimate the extent to which concerns about immigration affected the result but consider the following: Immigration was the second or first most cited reason leavers themselves gave for wanting to leave despite the stigma that might be attached to such an admission. A June 2016 MORI poll suggested that immigration was far and away the top concern of UK voters in general and stated that this concern had increased 10 points since May. Immigration was of particular concern to Conservatives, UKIPers, the 65+ and those with a social grade of C2DE - all demographics which disproportionately voted leave. The second most cited primary concern of all these groups? - The EU. Of those that cited the EU as their primary concern Immigration was their most mentioned "other important" concern. Of those that cited Immigration as their primary concern the EU was their most mentioned "other important" concern. This is, again, true of the aforementioned leave leaning demographics.There's not a lot of evidence to support fear of immigration being the main message that swayed people, never mind the only one:
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/dominic-cummings-brexit-referendum-won/
It's just more palatable for you to believe it so.
And of course this is based on the premise that people make decisions because of what people on the TV tell them to do. Which is just a little bit of an exaggeration of the effect of political messaging. People actually have their own thoughts too.
Immigration was quite clearly Vote Leave's totem of the sovereignty they were claiming we would regain.Vote leave advert said:"The EU is expanding and plans on granting Turkey visa-free travel. This will put enormous pressure on the NHS, our border security and economy. Have we lost control? We already send £350 million to the EU every single week. Shouldn't we spend our money on our priorities instead? Is This Good News? Click No! Vote Leave."
Eeeew...The colour is key
Don't forget Mossad and spoons.Meh, too vague.
Yes immigration was a central issue of the campaign, a central reason for leaving for many people, and was tied in coherently with the NHS and sovereignty more broadly. That wasn't what was being debated. Let's look at the data:You're right that it's not the only one and remainers might overestimate the extent to which concerns about immigration affected the result but consider the following: Immigration was the second or first most cited reason leavers themselves gave for wanting to leave despite the stigma that might be attached to such an admission. A June 2016 MORI poll suggested that immigration was far and away the top concern of UK voters in general and stated that this concern had increased 10 points since May. Immigration was of particular concern to Conservatives, UKIPers, the 65+ and those with a social grade of C2DE - all demographics which disproportionately voted leave. The second most cited primary concern of all these groups? - The EU. Of those that cited the EU as their primary concern Immigration was their most mentioned "other important" concern. Of those that cited Immigration as their primary concern the EU was their most mentioned "other important" concern. This is, again, true of the aforementioned leave leaning demographics.
That immigration formed the bulk of the Vote Leave campaign's messaging is heavily suggested in this Independent article. The same article also demonstrates the throughline connection between fear of immigration (the lead), the nhs, loss of sovereignty and the resulting appeal of Dominic Cummings' £350 million:
Immigration was quite clearly Vote Leave's totem of the sovereignty they were claiming we would regain.
How is that bitter? I don't think you understand the meaning of the word.So bitter
Just to add my two cents here mate, I’m from Trinidad and still live here, and there is absolutely no one in this country who sympathizes with the British or consider themselves even vaguely British as a result of being a commonwealth nation. I truly have no idea where you’ve plucked that from, but it’s complete nonsense. There is no romancism or entitlement here.Sorry if you felt I was attacking. Genuinely what you described is essentially xenophobia.
Both.
My grandma is from the Caribbean but has lived here for 30 years and her grandmother was a slave who was raped and forced to conceive a child to work on the fields. Her father was murdered for attempting to buy the former property of his father's slaver.
If you were to ask her what she identities as and her opinion of the British empire. She would tell you she was British and that the empire was a time of great joy and a time to look back fondly where life was.better.
I won't lie I had a double take on that post too. I'm English with Jamaican heritage though so I wasn't going to assume I know what it's like for him/her. My experience is more like yours....Just to add my two cents here mate, I’m from Trinidad and still live here, and there is absolutely no one in this country who sympathizes with the British or consider themselves even vaguely British as a result of being a commonwealth nation. I truly have no idea where you’ve plucked that from, but it’s complete nonsense. There is no romancism or entitlement here.
It’s quite the opposite in fact, a lot of people dislike a lot of what England stands for as a result of their past with us, which lends to a lot of people really hating National sports teams from England, for example, and enjoying when they’re beaten.
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Yeah I mean far be it from me to say anything about his personal experience, but I know a lot of people, and not many people feel anything positive towards England, and absolutely no one towards their old empire or the commonwealth. It was such a strange post I just had to say something about it, as I really don’t want people who may not know better thinking the islands are full of people pining for the good old days where we were part of the empireI won't lie I had a double take on that post too. I'm English with Jamaican heritage though so I wasn't going to assume I know what it's like for him/her. My experience is more like yours....
But I'm not particularly disagreeing with you there or seeking to impugn the motives of all, or even the majority of leave voters. I'm adding the nuance, lacking from your original post, that immigration was indeed the central thread that tied together the leave message and that the extent of its overall importance in swaying voters is arguable. Bolded is the rub - hence why I described how the two were linked by the leave campaign and provided supporting data from the Mori poll. That poll at the very least points to immigration as being the principal concern of leave leaning demographics and shows a heavy correlation between immigration and the EU as issues. Another interesting tidbit from that poll was that concern for immigration jumped 10 points from its previous incarnation while the EU and NHS scored a more modest 4% jump. This suggests Leave's anti immigration message was very effective in swaying people and that its concern for the nhs, while important, remained secondary.Yes immigration was a central issue of the campaign, a central reason for leaving for many people, and was tied in coherently with the NHS and sovereignty more broadly. That wasn't what was being debated. Let's look at the data:
In each case less than half of leave voters said immigration was why they voted Leave, and immigration was a secondary reason in 3 of the 4 surveys quoted. Of course, unpacking "sovereignty" from immigration is impossible to do properly. But then that's the limitation of the surveys used - particularly in the survey that just presents people with just 4 options, as if they accurately represent the full distribution of reasons for that decision.
- The most frequently selected reason among Leave voters––ticked by 45%––was, ‘to strike a better balance between Britain's right to act independently, and the appropriate level of co-operation with other countries’. The second most frequently selected reason among Leave voters––ticked by 26%––was, ‘to help us deal better with the issue of immigration’
- ‘The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK’, which was ranked first by 49% of Leave voters; and ‘A feeling that voting to leave the EU offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders’, which was ranked first by 33% of Leave voters.
- The most frequently cited reasons for voting Leave were ‘Sovereignty/EU bureaucracy’ and ‘Immigration’ (both mentioned by around 30% of those who said they intended to vote Leave)
In any case, your data illustrates my point quite well. Immigration was not the reason people voted Leave. It was an important reason for a lot of people, but not the primary reason for most, never mind the singular reason for all.
Are there generational differences and are they quite pronounced?I won't lie I had a double take on that post too. I'm English with Jamaican heritage though so I wasn't going to assume I know what it's like for him/her. My experience is more like yours....
I can only speak on a few (relatively speaking) anecdotal interactions, and even then, all its shown me is that different people see things differently.Are there generational differences and are they quite pronounced?
Reasons 1 and 2 above could be interpreted as concerns about immigration (essentially the right for the UK to set its own immigration quotas). It also sounds a bit better than confessing directly that you want to kick out foreigners. I very much doubt the average Brexit voter was thinking in Liam Fox terms of the right of the UK to strike its own trade deals, and 95% of them wouldn’t know what ECJ stands for.Yes immigration was a central issue of the campaign, a central reason for leaving for many people, and was tied in coherently with the NHS and sovereignty more broadly. That wasn't what was being debated. Let's look at the data:
In each case less than half of leave voters said immigration was why they voted Leave, and immigration was a secondary reason in 3 of the 4 surveys quoted. Of course, unpacking "sovereignty" from immigration is impossible to do properly. But then that's the limitation of the surveys used - particularly in the survey that just presents people with just 4 options, as if they accurately represent the full distribution of reasons for that decision.
- The most frequently selected reason among Leave voters––ticked by 45%––was, ‘to strike a better balance between Britain's right to act independently, and the appropriate level of co-operation with other countries’. The second most frequently selected reason among Leave voters––ticked by 26%––was, ‘to help us deal better with the issue of immigration’
- ‘The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK’, which was ranked first by 49% of Leave voters; and ‘A feeling that voting to leave the EU offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders’, which was ranked first by 33% of Leave voters.
- The most frequently cited reasons for voting Leave were ‘Sovereignty/EU bureaucracy’ and ‘Immigration’ (both mentioned by around 30% of those who said they intended to vote Leave)
In any case, your data illustrates my point quite well. Immigration was not the reason people voted Leave. It was an important reason for a lot of people, but not the primary reason for most, never mind the singular reason for all.
I can only speak for Jamaica. Generally we don't give a feck about the British. Maybe the really older folk that were born before independence, but even then We all identify proudly as Jamaicans and as a poster said previously enjoy beating the colonist at any chance we can. I particularly enjoy beating them in cricketI can only speak on a few (relatively speaking) anecdotal interactions, and even then, all its shown me is that different people see things differently.
So I won't make any generalisations. I don't recall anyone having any affinity (in the way that earlier poster mentioned) to the commonwealth, Queen, Britain, empire, etc however...
Really? I'm from Barbados and Nigeria. My family grew up there I'm first generation born here. I've spent extensive time in both places including spending alot of time with immigrants from both places here. Both have an infinity for British which is extremely high. For example any British person going to these places is essentially thought to be a higher level or someone to be celebrated. Now it has changed a bit for my generation but for the Windrush generation it's very much the case.Just to add my two cents here mate, I’m from Trinidad and still live here, and there is absolutely no one in this country who sympathizes with the British or consider themselves even vaguely British as a result of being a commonwealth nation. I truly have no idea where you’ve plucked that from, but it’s complete nonsense. There is no romancism or entitlement here.
It’s quite the opposite in fact, a lot of people dislike a lot of what England stands for as a result of their past with us, which lends to a lot of people really hating National sports teams from England, for example, and enjoying when they’re beaten.
I think you're missing the nuance, unfortunately.But I'm not particularly disagreeing with you there or seeking to impugn the motives of all, or even the majority of leave voters. I'm adding the nuance, lacking from your original post, that immigration was indeed the central thread that tied together the leave message and that the extent of its overall importance in swaying voters is arguable. Bolded is the rub - hence why I described how the two were linked by the leave campaign and provided supporting data from the Mori poll. That poll at the very least points to immigration as being the principal concern of leave leaning demographics and shows a heavy correlation between immigration and the EU as issues. Another interesting tidbit from that poll was that concern for immigration jumped 10 points from its previous incarnation while the EU and NHS scored a more modest 4% jump. This suggests Leave's anti immigration message was very effective in swaying people and that its concern for the nhs, while important, remained secondary.
They could be, but it would be unreasonable to assume they are for most people. We know for a fact there are people that don't give a shit about the economy, immigration or any of the major political issues, but they just don't like the idea of the EU - this unseen, unknown "leviathan" - having control of their country. They don't really care what they have control over, or what decisions they make, it's just a point of principle. Some people will have voted on that reason alone. And that's most easily summarised as wanting to take back control.Reasons 1 and 2 above could be interpreted as concerns about immigration (essentially the right for the UK to set its own immigration quotas). It also sounds a bit better than confessing directly that you want to kick out foreigners. I very much doubt the average Brexit voter was thinking in Liam Fox terms of the right of the UK to strike its own trade deals, and 95% of them wouldn’t know what ECJ stands for.
The sensitivity around staying in the single market also emphasises just how central our politicians perceive the immigration issue to be for Leavers. It is unbelievably stupid to give up access to the giant market on our doorstep unless you believe the freedom of movement pillar to be politically toxic.
It's a good idea, in my view. It takes the pressure off - things have become ridiculous over the last month or so.One-year flexible extension (where Britain can leave any time Parliament ratifies a deal) is reportedly being mooted by the EU.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-47821646
Leave voters in saying it wasn't immigtation shocker. Never seen that beforeYes immigration was a central issue of the campaign, a central reason for leaving for many people, and was tied in coherently with the NHS and sovereignty more broadly. That wasn't what was being debated. Let's look at the data:
In each case less than half of leave voters said immigration was why they voted Leave, and immigration was a secondary reason in 3 of the 4 surveys quoted. Of course, unpacking "sovereignty" from immigration is impossible to do properly. But then that's the limitation of the surveys used - particularly in the survey that just presents people with just 4 options, as if they accurately represent the full distribution of reasons for that decision.
- The most frequently selected reason among Leave voters––ticked by 45%––was, ‘to strike a better balance between Britain's right to act independently, and the appropriate level of co-operation with other countries’. The second most frequently selected reason among Leave voters––ticked by 26%––was, ‘to help us deal better with the issue of immigration’
- ‘The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK’, which was ranked first by 49% of Leave voters; and ‘A feeling that voting to leave the EU offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders’, which was ranked first by 33% of Leave voters.
- The most frequently cited reasons for voting Leave were ‘Sovereignty/EU bureaucracy’ and ‘Immigration’ (both mentioned by around 30% of those who said they intended to vote Leave)
In any case, your data illustrates my point quite well. Immigration was not the reason people voted Leave. It was an important reason for a lot of people, but not the primary reason for most, never mind the singular reason for all.
As ever it's the EU that have to act the grown ups in the room. It's a perfect solution all round so you know May will reject itOne-year flexible extension (where Britain can leave any time Parliament ratifies a deal) is reportedly being mooted by the EU.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-47821646
The big-bad EU being nice to the UK in negotiations? But.. but.. it's all their fault the UK is having such a hard time leaving!One-year flexible extension (where Britain can leave any time Parliament ratifies a deal) is reportedly being mooted by the EU.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-47821646
They're not being nice. They're being pragmatic because Brexit is a major problem for them as well.The big-bad EU being nice to the UK in negotiations? But.. but.. it's all their fault the UK is having such a hard time leaving!
It's a good idea but I don't think Macron is on board and maybe a few others too.The big-bad EU being nice to the UK in negotiations? But.. but.. it's all their fault the UK is having such a hard time leaving!
But yeah, it's a good idea, though I honestly feel a year probably still isn't enough and we'll be back in this exact position again this time next year.
It's a good idea, in my view. It takes the pressure off - things have become ridiculous over the last month or so.
They are being very accommodating as well. If, as ERG/Brexiteers suggest, the EU was looking to punish us for leaving, to demonstrate what a bad idea it was, they could just let us drop out this month.They're not being nice. They're being pragmatic because Brexit is a major problem for them as well.
They're not being 'accommodating', its a balance of interests. It isn't about baddies and goodies.They are being very accommodating as well. If, as ERG/Brexiteers suggest, the EU was looking to punish us for leaving, to demonstrate what a bad idea it was, they could just let us drop out this month.
Yes. Cannot disagree with any of that.I'm sure the UK will be resilient but why put itself in this position. And for sure the people who are going to suffer the most are the people who voted for it (other than Mogg and co). I think there's a terrible shock to a lot of people coming.
Bingo. That is a perfect summary of how our media has fed gullible people with utter rubbish. And the real stupidity is that they actually bought into it.Who needs information and transparency when you alreafy have your opinion based on Tory/News Corp propoganda?
The EU commission is the only source of legislation. I have enough problems with the House of Lords as it stands, imagine if the House of Lords was the only body that could propose and originate new legislation. That is a better analogy for the problem with the commission.I don't want the EU commission to be democratic, what I want is for people democratically elected to nominate people that are competent in specific domains which is the case for the commission. You and I don't elect the environment minister and there is a reason for that.
It’s not British people, it’s white people on the whole. It’s something seen mostly in businessplaces, restaurants etc., not really in other places, or an average person on the street. White people are usually giving extra care and politeness, because there’s the assumption that they’re rich and will spend more money.Really? I'm from Barbados and Nigeria. My family grew up there I'm first generation born here. I've spent extensive time in both places including spending alot of time with immigrants from both places here. Both have an infinity for British which is extremely high. For example any British person going to these places is essentially thought to be a higher level or someone to be celebrated. Now it has changed a bit for my generation but for the Windrush generation it's very much the case.