The thing I'm wondering about is why it's like that. Is it his lack of speed (less time to take the correct shot), is it his age (everything goes a bit slower the older you get), is it because he's not used to the league (does he need time to adapt?) is it because of fatigue or is the "harsh truth" that he can't do better than this?
10
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 46
- Goals
- 28
- Assists
- 9
- Yellow cards
- 8
- Status
He's exceeded my expectations no doubt about that.
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I don't know, but is it that important? It might be a combination of the above.
The main problem that I have with Ibra is that he's quite selfish. He does take a lot of shots and he doesn't help set up team mates. When Rooney played him in yesterday and his bad touch saw him end up at the goal kick line, instead of trying to pick up a team mate making a run, he tried to lob the goalie form an impossible angle.
He's great in the build-up and in the link-up play all the way up to the box, but when he's in the box he gets tunnel vision. That results in less goals for his team mates and I wouldn't have a problem with that if it was compensated by him scoring those goals. But he's finishing has never been his strong point, he's was always more likely to score a goal out of nothing than score the simple ones, he's not clinical.
The last time Jose played with 2 strikers he was at Porto, it's been a very long time. I would like him to explore that option in the future. Play Ibra and Martial up top with a midfield diamond.
EDIT: Actually he played like that at Inter too with Eto'o and Milito, come to think of it. And Snjeider as the #10
I'm not sure, but you seem to be. Is he really selfish? I rather think he quite a good teamplayer, trying to get assists. Of course he tries to score a lot, that's his main "duty". I had the similar thoughts on Martial, he seems to get "tunnel vision" when he's close to the goal, instead of sometimes trying to pass. I'm not saying it's wrong, he's should try most of the time, but I would be good to have some variation.
Martial gets a different type of tunnel vision, he dribbles to create space and as a result he can lose the ball, but he doesn't shoot. He will only take shots if he feels he has a realistic chance of scoring. Most of the times he'll either cut to his right and put a cross to the back post, or he'll spring down the outside and put a low cross in the box. He set up Ibra with one of those yesterday.
Look at the shooting from yesterday's match. The highlighted column is shots on target.
EDIT: You can see Martials failings too, 3 successful dribbles to getting dispossessed 5 times.
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How did they get Ibra's shots to 7? The only ones I saw was one on target and two off target - that's 3. Do they count him tossing Mings as one shot off target, or what?Martial gets a different type of tunnel vision, he dribbles to create space and as a result he can lose the ball, but he doesn't shoot. He will only take shots if he feels he has a realistic chance of scoring. Most of the times he'll either cut to his right and put a cross to the back post, or he'll spring down the outside and put a low cross in the box. He set up Ibra with one of those yesterday.
Look at the shooting from yesterday's match. The highlighted column is shots on target.
EDIT: You can see Martials failings too, 3 successful dribbles to getting dispossessed 5 times.
Edit: Ah, now I know, they count four of his blocked shots.
How did they get Ibra's shots to 7? The only ones I saw was one on target and two off target - that's 3. Do they count him tossing Mings as one shot off target, or what?
Edit: Ah, now I know, they count four of his blocked shots.
Yep, that's right.
And again you have failed to explain how you interprete your stats. Shots per goal really? Are all shots of equal difficulty? Can you please go more in depth with your analysis of the stats you provided?
You are also completely dismissing the movement of the players, their ability to get themselves in scoring positions, running in behind.
Do you honestly believe they would have kept those ratios had they played more and taken more shots? Swchweinsteiger played like one game and got top ratings, does that mean he would have been as good if he played every game? The same goes for creation stats.
You can post all the per/game stats you want to suit your argument but the reality is Zlatan is our only goal threat and best chance creator, most key passes than any top striker in the league bar Sanchez.
You can keep spouting how Martial and Mikhi were unfairly excluded but the reality is none of our attackers have been up to par hence the heavy rotation.
And yes most of our chances have just fallen to Ibra without him having any part in creating them for himself with his runs and movement, yeah sure. Why does Martial not find himself in better positions to score? Because he's just standing around waiting for the ball to come to him so he can dribble straight into a player.
Funny your accusing people to see what they want to see in stats when you're doing the same. When you say we're only 6 goals better of than last year, are you taking into account that our topscorer last year has failed miserably and Mikhi's been absent for a long time?
Let's see if you ignore my post like you did in the over reliant on Zlatan thread instead if providing some valid arguments.
Have to say this is one of the best analysis of our goal scoring problem this season and stat has backed this up.
So the main culprit for our scoring woe is Pogba and Zlatan (and that's as crazy as that sounds because Zlatan had scored so much). They together wasted too many good chances.
We got the cup because Ibra was uncharacteristically clinical. We won many matches because of this too, but Ibra was never like RvN or Ronaldo in a clinical department. These guys can miss easy chances too but it's few and far between. Ibra was just on and off. I remember he missed a couple of great chances against us when Mourinho took him to Old Trafford and Inter got knocked out of CL by us so these missed important chances are not alien to him. It's his characteristic. He can score spectacular goal and he can fluff a great chance just the same.
Hence too many draws for us.
Less we say about Pogba the better.
Should other players step up? Yes. But as everyone can see from stat above their goals per shot is rather good so they didn't waste their chance just as much and so it meant most of the chances didn't fall to them. They fell to Ibra and Pogba, all of whom are playing more minutes than everyone else which makes sense.
About link play, it seems Ibra playing with a different wavelength to Martial. And many times I saw Mhiki got a ball, ran through middle of the pitch looking for our striker in the box only to find Zlatan was still behind him so I think his link up play is a bit overrated on here. I don't see it being any better than other competent forwards out there, unless we compare it to guys like Troy Deeney which I won't.
So how will Mourinho solve this? Well, he get paid fat cheques to do so hopefully he can do it. Even if we have to wait until next summer transfers, I can wait. The team is not so bad right now. In fact it's much better than the past 3 seasons so I will just enjoy it .. until we unnecessarily drop points again of course.
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I'm glad you realised your stats are meaningles without further analasys.
Ibra doesn't only score goals mate, that's why he's indispensable. The options we have aren't good enough, that's the harsh reality for you. But we just do it to ourselves when we overrate our attackers so much and then get frustrated when they don't deliver.
Wow where do we start....
1) I'm not dismissing the movement of players. Ibra's movement is very good considering he's not very mobile. He does get himself in good positions.
2) The shots missed is a stat that's viewed at the same breath with most goalscoring chances missed, which for Ibra is extremely high. Not all shots are of the same difficulty, but if he's taking shots on that are hard to score from, maybe he shouldn't be taking them on?
3) No they wouldn't have kept the same ratios if they had taken more shots at goal, I already said that. But that doesn't mean they'd miss as many chances as Ibra has. It goes both ways.
4) The reality about Zlatan being our only threat, is based on the fact everyone else plays on the wings so Zlatan can play in the middle. You keep referring to his total stats which considering his game time should undoubtedly be higher. He is the only striker we play through the middle. He's the only striker we never take off. He has more minutes than anyone in the league. His stats against other strikers should be seen on a per 90 mins basis, not totals. You keep making that mistake.
5) Mkhi's and Martial reasons for exclusion have been reportedly that they didn't mark enough, not their goalscoring performance. Or that wouldn't explain Lingard playing. You do seem to know better than anyone though, so I'll have to take your word I guess.
6) Martial's off the ball movement is not great, he needs to improve. Ibra's is much better. Ibra is also the better player to lead the line in this formation that we play. I wouldn't play Martial alone up top. But part of the reason he's not scoring as much as last year, is because he's playing on the wing not up top. He hasn't failed miserably up top, he was never played there by Mou. Stop branding 15 matches on the wing failure to score as much as last year. If he were to play up top it'd be with another striker next to him, not alone. His movement is not good enough to warrant that.
7) It's simple. You keep dismissing everyone else as a failure and building up Zlatan to be something bigger than he is. He is not a prolific goalscorer and we're building our attack too much around him. He misses a lot of chances and it has cost us many times. You think he's some sort of untouchable player (your words) that should never be subbed because apparently he is our only threat. I don't share that view. I think Mourinho needs to work in alternative formations where Ibra is not the only focal point of the attack. Preferably one with two strikers. Because when he's not on form, he's costing us.
Finally, what you don't get, is that I don't have some vendetta with Ibra. I believe he should be starting games for us until we get a better striker. But I don't accept your view that he should be playing every minute and that even if he's crap he needs to stay on. It's that simple.
Have I covered you? I hope so, cause I don't want to have to type all that again.
Look, for the 100th time, Ibra is our best striker. It goes without saying. He should be starting games up top. But his finishing is erratic and he has shit games. When he has these shit games, we need to have an alternative.
That alternative might mean him being subbed. It might mean him playing with another striker up front. I am happy for what he's done so far for us, but he doesn't deserve some untouchable status where he plays every minute of the game. Sometimes a different approach is needed. Your best player, might not always be your best player on the day.
While I'm one of Zlatan's biggest fans I agree with a lot of what you've said. It's so refreshing to see someone have an opinion that's "negative" but well thought through and actually sensible. So thanks for that.
I think (well... hope) that everyone see the same things during the games but what they actually say in this thread is so biased one way or the other that it's become more of a battleground of two opposite sides rather than a proper discussion. But perhaps that's par for the course in any player discussion thread.
No it's not hard to accept, I just think it's a very bad and lazy argument, that's all. Because if you say that then you would surely have to do the same with every player that has missed chances in every team. Or is it only Zlatan who gets hypothetical goals added to his tally and those goals magically transforms into points for United as if nothing in those games but the final score would have changed?
?
I did highlight that fact in the very post you quoted.
The thing about Ibra is, he talks a big game, he's the attacker who's played what I think should be the most minutes, but we're in 6th place with a miserable goals total. Yes he's scored the most, but that's not doing us a lot of good isn't it?
Maybe I'm being too overly critical (that'll get me the hater tag, no doubt, despite the fact that I've always thought he's a fantastic footballer), but if he is as much a "winner" as people say, he'd agree that he's underachieving because we're in 6th place, drawing with the likes of Bournemouth at home, with him as the mainstay of the team.
This. I 100% agree with this.
I think he's done just that, taken the blame for Bournemouth even when it wasn't entirely his fault.
Thing with Ibra is he's here for his own personal glory, not the team's. He's never been that type. He's won two trophies and counting, is in with a chance of Golden Boot, and is doing what he said he would. I think in his mind he is 'winning'.
I have no problems with that, if the team did well as a result. Look what Ronaldo did.
1. I think this is the fourth time or something I ask you to offer a deeper analasys of why you think those stats back up your opinion, but l'm not gonna ask anymore since you clearly aren't capable of doing it. All you've said is, here these are the stats and they say he's the most wasteful.
2. So you think a shot equals a goalscoring chance? Maybe but all the factors that need considering are to many to draw conclusions from these kind of stats. And yes it could be that he's taking shots he shouldn't but he's allowed to since he's our best bet to score. Ronaldo has 5.8 spg, do you see him being subed at half time when he's having a bad game? Maybe they should replace him with Lingard who is much less wasteful.
3. No it doesn't but you have to assume they would be getting the same amount of chances as Ibra, and how likely is it that would happen. Do you see now why your stats are useless?
4. Ok so only the central striker is supposed to score, I get your reasoning there. Yeah his stats should be better, he should be on 50 goals already. He plays every game and every minute because our alternatives are not good enough, but this is difficult for you to realise because you have your laughable stats, that you keep posting.
5. I'm not sure I'm right on this but whatever the reason for their exclusion, the fact remains they haven't helped the team enough. And I trust Mourinho's judgement more than some random caf member's.
6. Regardless of position he has failed to even make the bench at times, again you overrate him. Maybe playing on the wing is the problem(which most would agree is his best position), maybe he would have scored 30 by now(in your fantasy world) if he was played up top in a different system. How can he do that when we have a far superior player to accomodate and he's struggling to even get a game?
7. I'm not building him up to be better than he is. He has missed so many chances/big chances, and it's definately cost us points. But you can't drop him because of the other things he brings to the game and it's even more difficult to sub/drop him when others aren't capable of contributing and there's no better alternatives on the bench. Like I said before, you don't sub your best player after a bad half, in fact you rarely sub anyone at half time but later on.
On the matter of subing Ibra/different gameplan and the ability of our other attackers, I think we should agree to disagree since our opinions are total opposite and that won't change.
Has he not still scored when he has had shit games? What about that hattrick? Did he have a good game then? Next season there may be better alternatives, but right now there aren't.
I can only imagine how fecked we would have been having someone with your reasoning as the manager.
Anyone else secretly hoping he gets a 3 match ban so we can have a look at a different 3 players up front?
Although knowing our luck it will be Rooney plus 2...
Zlatan has had a good season personally but I can't shake the idea that we would be more fluid with a different set up up front. That'll probably be proven false though and we will score 1 goal in the next 3 games and it will be mata that gets it...
Although knowing our luck it will be Rooney plus 2...
Zlatan has had a good season personally but I can't shake the idea that we would be more fluid with a different set up up front. That'll probably be proven false though and we will score 1 goal in the next 3 games and it will be mata that gets it...
the haterz are back! lol...
How did they get Ibra's shots to 7? The only ones I saw was one on target and two off target - that's 3. Do they count him tossing Mings as one shot off target, or what?
Well, Ibra always takes the blame when he's at fault, which he did after the Bournemouth game. He's also said that he's not pleased with his season so far and that he still has more to give. We should be more critical about this part with the other players - they rather seem happy and are pleased with their performances.
I don't think you're too critical. You should be critical, just as long as it's reasonable I don't see a problem with people criticising Ibra or the other players. As long as you back your concerns with the way your thinking and if you also could show facts, totally fine.
The problem is that we really don't know what position the team would be in if Ibra wasn't in the team. Is he carrying the team on his shoulders or are the others overly dependant on him? I think it's a mix between both - he's very much needed, but I would like the other players to show the same hunger as him and sometimes take a risk or two, for instance, instead of passing Ibra or Pogba, do something on your own.
But I still think the team's going in the right direction. We shouldn't forget the state the team was in before Mourinho and these things takes time. Mourinho has still a few more things to fix before everything goes like "clockwork". And I'm expecting a lot from him next season. As long as the CL-spot is in their hands, I will not care about how they've played. But I will "demand" much more next season, but that's because I'm going to have realistic expectations on the team, which I don't have right now.
Feck me you lot, people are seriously arguing Ibra is holding us back? Really?
Not much talk about him getting charged. Will he actually get away with it?
He's not holding us back, but then he's not reached Godlike status like some go on. He's on Par with what I expected goal wise, but when you add up the chances he's missed at times it's very unexpected. I thought he was more clinical than he showed, but he actually mishits the ball quite often when I thought technique for him was key.
Did you really read the last few pages and come the conclusion that this is what we're arguing?
We're arguing if having no Plan B is holding us back. If playing Ibra every minute of every game is holding us back. Not if Ibra is holding us back, in general.
Nobody here is suggesting that he's not the best striker at the club and that he does not deserve to be starting games for us when he is fit.
No chance, something will happen later today or by midweek. He won't be playing the next 3 games that's for sure.
I'm not interested in his antics. Quite the contrary.
I just want him focusing on playing football. When he is, it's rather easy to forget about the negatives, since he is a great player. However – when these type of incidents do occur, they're hard to miss and they also serve as a reminder of what has been an issue for pretty much his whole career, even if it's not as frequent now as it has been in previous seasons and years.
Of course opponents will try and throw him off his game, disrupting him in different ways possible. But he can still choose to be professional about it and retaliate by turning in a great performance instead of what we saw yesterday against Bournemouth.
Mind you, I don't blame Zlatan for the elbow later on, that's an understandable retaliation considering the disgusting and outright dangerous stomp to his head by Mings.
What I'm criticising Zlatan for is the initial incident, where he wrestled his defender to the ground, whilst the ball wasn't even close to the action. He was the evident instigator, he was the one who escalated the situation. Up to that point, it was just a usual in-match battle. No matter what Mings has done, Zlatan shouldn't be doing that, he should just carry on. Just pointless unnecessary chest-puffing by Zlatan there.
It bothers me a bit that so few talk about the initial incident, which started the mess that followed. Because there was a match of football going on before it. Instead everyone's talking about the stomp and the elbow. Which wouldn't even have happened if not for that little incident, which was a clear overreaction to a nothing-play.
He's supposed to be our leader and a great influence on his teammates. Really disappointed in Zlatan yesterday.
But as is always the case with him, he'll probably turn in a great performance in the next match he plays.
OMG, your Ibra rating, 4.8!
No, but seriously, I don't know what started the incident. Since the cameras never show everything it's impossible to know. I'm also disappointed in him, but hopefully he'll come back stronger and show everyone that he just had a bad day.
This is the issue. He seems to be the player for the impossible rather than the simple. Maybe he's less confident than we all think and doesn't like the pressure of one-on-ones.
Mark Hughes wasn't clinical either but we had a lot of goalscorers around him when he played, so it was less of an issue. Since then we've always had a top poacher either starting or on the bench.
We definitely need to either supplement or replace Ibrahimovic with a clinical striker who can bury the chances we make against the smaller teams.
Against the big teams he's a real asset with his size, hold-up play and general teamwork, not to mention his ability to get a goal out of nothing.
But against the smaller teams, yeah I'd say he's holding us back. Certainly our inability to beat, or even score against, the lesser sides at OT would suggest as much.
Ibra would surely benefit having another striker playing beside him - a partnership. When he doesn't score, the other striker will (hopefully). So isn't the problem that Mourinho doesn't trust the midfielders and that is why he continues using one striker - so the offence is suffering "just" to have a strong defence? I'm not an expert, that's why I'm asking. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me can answer my question.
There's been loads of talk about it? It normally doesn't happen until the afternoon on the Monday.
I would gladly keep him for another year, but he is 35. He has to be seen as a stop-gap that will be replaced (rather than supplement) in the very near future. Either this summer or the next. He also won't be happy to stay as a squad player, so that's another thing to consider.
It kinda depends on the funds the club is willing to invest next summer, which might depend on us getting into CL whichever way possible. A top class striker will cost £100m and we still desperately need a couple more players like a CM/DM (which would cost considerable money) and a fullback.
If the owners are willing to splash another £150m then he might be gone. If they'd rather spend £60m-odd on strengthening the squad this year and wait for CL qualification before splashing out on a star striker, then we Ibra will likley stay for one year more.
It's an unfair comparison to be fair. Peak RVN was obviously better than current Ibrahimovic.
Agree with this. Especially given he's faidlt mobile. Great to have him but it's not as if we'd have scored 10 goals without him. The team is set up to set him up.
OMG, your Ibra rating, 4.8!
No, but seriously, I don't know what started the incident. Since the cameras never show everything it's impossible to know. I'm also disappointed in him, but hopefully he'll come back stronger and show everyone that he just had a bad day.
That rating is misrepresentative, based on only 5–10 sporadically picked matches or so. In no way do I rate him the lowest out of all our players. I just don't use the forum features often for rating players, predicting results, lineups etc.
My true rating of Zlatan this season would be closer to 6.6/6.7, approximately. I do understand the reasoning behind rating him higher than that, I just don't agree with it.
I don't know what started the incident either, but I do know that the incident started the shift of focus thereafter. Zlatan's reaction was excessive (odd that he didn't get booked for that) and the match suffered from there on. Heck, it even got into his own head apparently.
I would love to see how that would work out but on the other hand, the team doing good is the most important thing, who ever plays.
It was difficult for me to believe someone else uses the same logic as MadMike, obviously I was wrong. Yes, our two best players are the main culprits.
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