Why CR7 Should be Talked About as the GOAT

[Enigma_87]

Being on goood teams doesn't however nullify their individual stats. They've both countinued to relentlessly perform at he world beater level for a decade irrespective of who the supporting cast was.

Like in Argentina and Portugal?

Surely Messi has to agree it's easier to have Xavi, Busquets and Iniesta running the show and having the ball 80% of the time while the other team is running around trying to defend and close spaces, rather than playing at a weaker Argentina side without that supporting cast.

And it's not like Portugal and Argentina are some bums like Northern Ireland, they obviously have quality players. Surely there is some discrepancy behind continuously putting up numbers at club level (goal per game, even more) whilst scoring a goal every other game for the NT(both of them)?

 

[Raoul]

Like in Argentina and Portugal?

Surely Messi has to agree it's easier to have Xavi, Busquets and Iniesta running the show and having the ball 80% of the time while the other team is running around trying to defend and close spaces, rather than playing at a weaker Argentina side without that supporting cast.

And it's not like Portugal and Argentina are some bums like Northern Ireland, they obviously have quality players. Surely there is some discrepancy behind continuously putting up numbers at club level (goal per game, even more) whilst scoring a goal every other game for the NT(both of them)?

I don't pay much attention to international comps as they don't really demonstrate longer term time horizons. WCs are notorious for inflating players like Rossi, Scilacci, Klose, Salenko, and Suker, but don't demonstrate how a player performs over a 5-10 or more year period, which is why the club level is more important in this regard (imo).

That said, CR7 has done quite well at the international level over his entire career having made a Euro final and WC Semi and finally a Euro title. That's pretty good for a smaller football nation like Portugal.

 

[Stack]

It's commonly accepted that players are generally more athletic now (the Olympic records can represent this) but whether makes things "better" is very debatable and hardly commonly accepted. Also technique is something timeless across eras and arguably more important than athleticism in aesthetics. If someone is talent enough and spends enough time with the ball their technique will be legendary. Give someone like Pele or Di Stefano same modern advantages and they would excel even more.



Indeed. He would get 1000 +1

Technique and skill levels of the average player have improved compared to players of the 60's for example. Its come about because the game sped up, players got fitter, kids are coached earlier, more often and coaching techniques have improved massively since the 60's.
The idea that players now are athletes more than footballers I find amusing. People are completely missing the technique levels and skill now required, probably because they arent seeing just how fast the game has become compared to what it used to be. Players are having to control the ball far quicker than they used to and do it at pace and under more intense pressure than before and also operate under high pressure for longer on the pitch. People who think Ronaldo is all about being a great athlete simply havent got a clue, they are completely missing the fact he does things in a certain area of the pitch under pressure and at pace. He used to be a player who exhibited a huge amount of flair and trickery but simplified his game. Thats doesnt mean he is any less skilful than his early days or his technique has waned. Also many dont understand the difference between skill and technique, Ronaldos ability to be in the right place at the right time so often is a skill in itself.
The improvement of the average player in terms of skill, technique and fitness makes Messi's ability all the more remarkable.

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't pay much attention to international comps as they don't really demonstrate longer term time horizons. WCs are notorious for inflating players like Rossi, Scilacci, Klose, Salenko, and Suker, but don't demonstrate how a player performs over a 5-10 or more year period, which is why the club level is more important in this regard (imo).

That said, CR7 has done quite well at the international level over his entire career having made a Euro final and WC Semi and finally a Euro title. That's pretty good for a smaller football nation like Portugal.

There are obvious examples of other players like Toni, Phillips, Vardi, Di Natale, Bierhoff dong the same in the course of a season, but my point was players like Pele, Maradona, Cruyff in the past were at the same level both internationally and for their respective clubs, even raised their level for the top occasion, whilst there is obvious discrepancy when Messi and Ronaldo play for their NT. All things considered Ronaldo has done well for Portugal, but I wouldn't say he looks like the same world beater as he does for Real.

 

[Synco]

Yeah, he was hardly a limited goalscorer. Neither was Müller to be fair, but Puskas was incredibly gifted, and was an entertainer par excellence

He seems pretty much forgotten when it comes to naming the greatest footballers. It's similar with others like Müller, Platini and Xavi, whose influence on their teams (club & NT) appears to have been just immense. (Xavi is the one I have seen myself.)

Their names almost never pop up, although as far as I can tell, few footballers had as much individual impact as them. There are probably some more who belong in that category and share their fate.

 

[Enigma_87]

Technique and skill levels of the average player have improved compared to players of the 60's for example. Its come about because the game sped up, players got fitter, kids are coached earlier, more often and coaching techniques have improved massively since the 60's.
The idea that players now are athletes more than footballers I find amusing. People are completely missing the technique levels and skill now required, probably because they arent seeing just how fast the game has become compared to what it used to be. Players are having to control the ball far quicker than they used to and do it at pace and under more intense pressure than before and also operate under high pressure for longer on the pitch. People who think Ronaldo is all about being a great athlete simply havent got a clue, they are completely missing the fact he does things in a certain area of the pitch under pressure and at pace. He used to be a player who exhibited a huge amount of flair and trickery but simplified his game. Thats doesnt mean he is any less skilful than his early days or his technique has waned. Also many dont understand the difference between skill and technique, Ronaldos ability to be in the right place at the right time so often is a skill in itself.
The improvement of the average player in terms of skill, technique and fitness makes Messi's ability all the more remarkable.

IMO it depends mate. You have a real lack of ball playing defenders for example and your modern day CB's ball control is Jones and Smalling - the main reason why a lot of CB's are overrated these days like Ramos, Luiz, Stones, etc for being good on the ball(in Stones case he isn't even that).

Footballers are no doubt better athletes nowadays, but in terms of talent every decade has it's own outstanding players and you can't teach Ronaldinho's touch or Fenomeno's explosiveness and control at high speed.

He seems pretty much forgotten when it comes to naming the greatest footballers. It's similar with others like Müller, Platini and Xavi, whose influence on their teams (club & NT) appears to have been just immense. (Xavi is the one I have seen myself.)

Their names almost never pop up, although as far as I can tell, few footballers had as much individual impact as them. There are probably some more who belong in that category and share their fate.

Xavi and C. Ronaldo IMO should be in the same tier. Xavi is always criminally underrated in those discussions and he's been hugely influential for Barca and Spanish NT.

 

[Stack]

IMO it depends mate. You have a real lack of ball playing defenders for example and your modern day CB's ball control is Jones and Smalling - the main reason why a lot of CB's are overrated these days like Ramos, Luiz, Stones, etc for being good on the ball(in Stones case he isn't even that).

Footballers are no doubt better athletes nowadays, but in terms of talent every decade has it's own outstanding players and you can't teach Ronaldinho's touch or Fenomeno's explosiveness and control at high speed.

Ive been playing for 50 years now and coaching for nearly 20. I have got every qualification available to me and have coached at representative level training camps. The methods and techniques being used to coach the kids are far superior from when i was a kid. In fact they are far superior now to just 15 years ago. If you are 8 years old today and havent been put into a streamed team at a decent local club or school and havent started doing academy training sessions by 10 you have very little chance of making it to the top. The best kids today train 4 and 5 times a week 11 months of the year and typically play in 2 teams a season from the age of 8 or 9 onwards. I trained twice a week for 6 months of the year and played once a week till I was 15 and I ended up playing at a reasonable level where i live (which admittedly isnt a decent footballing nation.)
Im talking about your average EPL player, not the superstars in a team but your average player no matter what the position, they are much much better in terms of technique and skill than they were just 25 years ago because of how and the kids are coached. Its not just nutrition and fitness understanding which has been studied and improved, its also technical skill coaching systems which have been improved. The area where its visible if you know what to look for is where players are under pressure and having to control the ball quickly and make decisions quickly and also do these things while at pace. I repeat, this applies mostly to the average player

 

[Enigma_87]

Ive been playing for 50 years now and coaching for nearly 20. I have got every qualification available to me and have coached at representative level training camps. The methods and techniques being used to coach the kids are far superior from when i was a kid. In fact they are far superior now to just 15 years ago. If you are 8 years old today and havent been put into a streamed team at a decent local club or school and havent started doing academy training sessions by 10 you have very little chance of making it to the top. The best kids today train 4 and 5 times a week 11 months of the year and typically play in 2 teams a season from the age of 8 or 9 onwards. I trained twice a week for 6 months of the year and played once a week till I was 15 and I ended up playing at a reasonable level where i live (which admittedly isnt a decent footballing nation.)
Im talking about your average EPL player, not the superstars in a team but your average player no matter what the position, they are much much better in terms of technique and skill than they were just 25 years ago because of how and the kids are coached. Its not just nutrition and fitness understanding which has been studied and improved, its also technical skill coaching systems which have been improved. The area where its visible if you know what to look for is where players are under pressure and having to control the ball quickly and make decisions quickly and also do these things while at pace. I repeat, this applies mostly to the average player

Yeah don't disagree for the bang average player but for the very top ones I'm not so sure they are better as a whole compared to 15 years ago in terms of skill and technical level. IMO the tendency in the last years is less Robinho's and more Lukaku's.

 

[Stack]

Yeah don't disagree for the bang average player but for the very top ones I'm not so sure they are better as a whole compared to 15 years ago in terms of skill and technical level. IMO the tendency in the last years is less Robinho's and more Lukaku's.

Are you sure on that?, make a list of the best players in the world and check how many are all about physicality

 

[Enigma_87]

Are you sure on that?, make a list of the best players in the world and check how many are all about physicality

Not something definite by far, more of a personal observation.

 

[RedStarUnited]

I wonder how Ronaldo would have been viewed if there was no Messi and he had cleaned up 7+ Ballon D'ors and had the same goalscoring record?

I dont think he would have had as many goals and been as driven. Having another guy also playing at a ridiculous level gave him incentive and kept him honest.

but ronaldo was also the best player in the world as a productive flair player that dribbles and entertains

What year was this? Ronaldos last proper entertaining season at United was 06/07. He regained it again in his first year or so at Madrid but was never the same again.

 

[stepic]

Ahh... essentially another Messi vs Ronaldo thread, can't wait to see these brand new, never before heard discussions.

lol yup

Messi is better than Ronaldo. And will always be. Can't be just accept it?

 

[Raoul]

lol yup

Messi is better than Ronaldo. And will always be. Can't be just accept it?

cc: @Cal?

 

[IFC 1905]

cc: @Cal?

And Cal? on steroids? I mean @Peyroteo

 

[Peyroteo]

And Cal? on steroids? I mean @Peyroteo

I haven't ever even said I think Ronaldo's better than Messi... I simply say you can make a case for it. I reply to your comments because you keep talking out of your ass with an obvious agenda.

You're the one who literally does nothing else here but talk well about Messi or badly about Ronaldo ffs

 

[Snow]

Never heard such nonsense in my life. Ronaldo is a goal machine and his flair, dribbling, passing, and creativity come nowhere close to Messi and Ronaldinho. Messi is the greatest because he combines ridiculous skill like Ronaldinho, with insane goal scoring like Ronaldo. Ronaldo scores tap ins and headers, Messi beats half a dozen players and chips it over the keeper. How on earth can that be less entertaining?

Messi doesn't possess ridiculous skill like Ronaldinho. Ronaldinho was doing stuff with the ball that you just don't see. Messi does stuff with the ball that you do see (Iniesta does similar things) but he just does it way better than anyone else. His dribbling is all about timing and perfect control and balance which combined with a burst of speed from standstill. Only way to defend against him is to literally have the reflexes of a cat.

 

[IFC 1905]

I haven't ever even said I think Ronaldo's better than Messi... I simply say you can make a case for it. I reply to your comments because you keep talking out of your ass with an obvious agenda.

You're the one who literally does nothing else here but talk well about Messi or badly about Ronaldo ffs

 

[Snow]

Ronaldo is top 10 as a footballer but combined with achievement he's top 1-3. No one comes close to his professionalism and determination. He should absolutely be talked about as one of the GOATs.

 

[Peyroteo]

 

[harms]

He seems pretty much forgotten when it comes to naming the greatest footballers. It's similar with others like Müller, Platini and Xavi, whose influence on their teams (club & NT) appears to have been just immense. (Xavi is the one I have seen myself.)

Their names almost never pop up, although as far as I can tell, few footballers had as much individual impact as them. There are probably some more who belong in that category and share their fate.

Yeah, if only the Magyars would've won the World Cup in 1954... and they beat the same German team in the group game like 8:3 or something
That - and, of course, the Hungarian revolution of 1956, which completely broke the team and made Puskas to take a 3 year break from competitive football, at the very physical peak, from 28 to 31. And even after that he scored about 250 goals for Real Madrid in roughly the same amount of games At Madrid he took a more restricted role due to Di Stefano's influence (Puskas was smart enough to recognize the move that will bring the best out of both of them, Di Stefano hated to be challenged, see Didi etc.)

 

[RedRonaldo]

I wonder how Ronaldo would have been viewed if there was no Messi and he had cleaned up 7+ Ballon D'ors and had the same goalscoring record?

Probably the GOAT ahead of Pele and Maradona, as he would also win many more league titles and cups if there was no Messi too, and his individual records would be so far ahead of all others and remained unchallenged in the entire history of football.

Let's face it, Ronaldo is on his way to win his 5th Ballon D'ors, so without Messi he would have 9 Ballon D'ors (4 times runners-up behind Messi), 7 La Liga (5 times runners-up being Messi Barca) + 3 Premier league (hence 10 league titles), 3 or 4 CL (if they win this saturday), 1 Euro Champion, plus few more domestic cups. This to me is the CV of GOAT that the other worthy contenders might not come close in matching it.

But only if there's no Messi....

 

[Peyroteo]

Probably the GOAT ahead of Pele and Maradona, as he would also win many more league titles and cups if there was no Messi too, and his individual records would be so far ahead of others in the entire history of football.

I don't think he would have been as good if Messi didn't play though. He's obsessed with being the best in the world, if there was no Messi to challenge him he might have not reached the same heights.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

And you're entitled to your opinion. I just found it interesting that a player who scores so many goals (and important goals too) could criticised for not getting involved in other aspects of the game.

It's criticism only when seen from a certain perspective. The player is phenomenal. His record is absolutely brilliant. In a general context, he deserves nothing but praise. But shift the discussion to one about the greatest of all time, and it's only then that these aspects are required to be brought up because of the other contenders and their influence and hence the supposed criticism.

 

[VanHaal'sRedArmy]

Am I crazy in thinking that he isn't even the best 'Ronaldo' that's been around?

 

[Jaybomb]

Am I crazy in thinking that he isn't even the best 'Ronaldo' that's been around?

Yes.

 

[Cal?]

lol yup

Messi is better than Ronaldo. And will always be. Can't be just accept it?

Another one who struggle with the difference between opinions and facts.

Am I crazy in thinking that he isn't even the best 'Ronaldo' that's been around?

Very much so

 

[VanHaal'sRedArmy]

Very much so

I'll give Cristiano the edge on athleticism and finishing. To me Luís Nazário de Lima had that flair along with the goal scoring I doubt we'll ever see in another no.9. If "El Fenomeno" stayed fit and healthy, I think he'll have a shout at being GOAT.

 

[GailSpaceWynand]

This debate will never stop.

What I have come to realize is that opinions are formed early; and the impetus to change this held notion rarely presents itself (no amount of achievement will do). Some prefer the delight and excitement involved in watching skillful players- regardless of achievements (like Ronaldinho who on his day was unplayable) while some prefer the calculated satisfaction that comes with putting everything on the line, however ugly - for that special spot in the trophy room.

CR7 happens to have done both at certain points in his career and that merits his place on this list. I am not saying he's the greatest ever but it is embarrassing to see so much hate spurned against him when he has achieved so much (in both aspects)- mainly by those who have already taken a preconceived stand and are hesitant to budge. For those, saying he "lost" his skills at Madrid - it's not true; he altered his game to compete with Messi and did so exceedingly well.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

He will score a hat trick tonight. Get ready to lament haters.

 

[Cal?]

I'll give Cristiano the edge on athleticism and finishing. To me Luís Nazário de Lima had that flair along with the goal scoring I doubt we'll ever see in another no.9. If "El Fenomeno" stayed fit and healthy, I think he'll have a shout at being GOAT.

The key point highlighted, this is not about who could have been a GOAT.

 

[LeCon]

I always wonder why people like Greaves, Muller, Puskas are never talked about as the GOAT. Greaves literally never gets a look in.

 

[Stack]

I always wonder why people like Greaves, Muller, Puskas are never talked about as the GOAT. Greaves literally never gets a look in.

They lived too long ago and the stats muppets of today cant over analyse their games via shots on target, passes completed, dribbles completed etc etc yadda yadda yadda. As each generation comes through the previous generations slowly fade into the shadows and its especially so in todays age where stats have become so important to peoples opinions rather than seeing or understanding actual ability.

 

[Nanook]

I always wonder why people like Greaves, Muller, Puskas are never talked about as the GOAT. Greaves literally never gets a look in.

Didn't help he played for Tottenham, if he played for Liverpool/United he would be rated much higher I think.

 

[LeCon]

I think most things are always considered with romanticism, hindsight and media influence. The Beatles are as big as they are because they are heavily pushed and romanticised by the press. Quality and substance are often misrepresented or overestimated in these situations.

Nowadays, Pele would be called crap because he plays in France. Messi is called no good by some because the team he plays in always chokes in major tournaments. The last world cup Messi actually dragged the Argies through a few games in the knockout rounds but because they choked the final he is compared unfavourably to Maradona despite being vastly superior. I wonder if you take the hand of god and that one amazing goal against England away from the annals of the press and all the media coverage and scandal it attracted in the English-speaking world, whether Maradona would be considered better than Messi just because he's won the only cup competition Messi hasn't.

All my opinion of course.

 

[Stack]

Didn't help he played for Tottenham, if he played for Liverpool/United he would be rated much higher I think.

Back then Spurs were a major team.

 

[Acheron]

I would put him as the best player on this generation because of his individual records and how he has been so efficient and determinant all this years. At least, as a forward, only Messi can be compared to him. At least for me he has been the best player in Real Madrid since Zinedine Zidane and he has also done pretty well with Portugal and if Real Madrid wins yet another UCL that's just gonna solidify his position in this discussion.

Also I've always been against comparing players from different eras as there are different circumstances surrounding them and the sport keeps evolving so right now the 'only' competition Ronaldo has would be Messi. You can prefer Messi and there's nothing wrong and crazy about it but the way I see it both Messi and Ronaldo have benefited with the presence of the other. I think this rivalry has been good as it has forced each other to maintain a certain standard the same way their respective clubs push each other constantly.

 

[Stack]

I think most things are always considered with romanticism, hindsight and media influence. The Beatles are as big as they are because they are heavily pushed and romanticised by the press. Quality and substance are often misrepresented or overestimated in these situations.

Nowadays, Pele would be called crap because he plays in France. Messi is called no good by some because the team he plays in always chokes in major tournaments. The last world cup Messi actually dragged the Argies through a few games in the knockout rounds but because they choked the final he is compared unfavourably to Maradona despite being vastly superior. I wonder if you take the hand of god and that one amazing goal against England away from the annals of the press and all the media coverage and scandal it attracted in the English-speaking world, whether Maradona would be considered better than Messi just because he's won the only cup competition Messi hasn't.

All my opinion of course.

You bring up a really interesting point here. The truth is the Beatles are as big as they are not because they are heavily romanticised by the press but because they changed everything in music when they arrived. Absolutely everything, in the same way Elvis did before them and the Sex Pistols after them and Nirvana after that. The Beatles ended up bigger than the Pistols and Nirvana because they pumped out a ton of #1 singles and albums as well as being front runners in terms of evolving their music and setting standards in style and fashion. Their album Sgt peppers was voted the #1 album ever but playing now it seems ordinary and thats a function of listening and viewing the album without the context of who they were, what the album meant and what was going on at the time. The Beatles were/are that big because they deserved to be, not because of any over romanticising brought on over time. The context of the era is part of the picture.
The same thing applies to Pele for example. Those of us old enough to have seen him and remember the time do so with the context of how huge he was, how idolised he was and how good he was relative to players of that time. Unfortunately just as listening to Sgt Peppers doesnt give a new listener the context of its arrival and content, youtube videos of Pele and other former stars dont give a feeling or mood of context of their time when they played.

 

[SteveW]

This guy is just amazing. When Messi won the ballon d'or 4 times in a row, I never thought Ronaldo would be able to catch up. I only expected the 4-1 gap to widen even further. But soon, it's going to be 5-5. If Madrid win the CL, Ronaldo will also have 4 CL trophies again equaling Messi.

If Ronnie gets it this year it will be a disgrace and proof that it's not actually an individual award at all. Messi has been much better and scored way more goals.

 

[Prometheus]

Well, if there are more people who thinks Messi is better, then maybe that's an indication that he is.

You do realise that argument is fallacious, right? Because truth isn't democracy. Also, the premise isn't true. I don't think there are more people who think Messi is better. It's just like I said, Messi has a subset of fans who insist on there to be no debate whatsoever. You can clearly see it in this thread - you being one of them.

 

[Prometheus]

I don't understand either. The people that say there is "no debate" are in a world of their own as far as I'm concerned. Another thing I find ridiculous that people say about Ronaldo is how he is all "hard work and determination" as opposed to natural talent. Don't get me wrong, Ronaldo's work ethic is probably one of the best in the world, but have those people not seen 18 or 19 year old Ronaldo? He was a magically talented wonderkid.

It's the same as people who say Messi wouldn't be as great without Xavi/Iniesta or he hasn't proven himself at another club but like you said, there are less of those ridiculous fans bashing Messi but more of the "there's no debate. Great hardworking goal poacher but not much else"

Agreed! Really good point on young Ronaldo. I can't imagine anyone who watched him running with the all hard work and determination nonsense.