Why CR7 Should be Talked About as the GOAT

Prometheus said:
Yet they do.

I myself find it hard to separate them. But the most ridiculous nonsense I see in this discussion is usually people who are convinced that there's no debate because Messi is clearly better. For the life of me I can't figure why Messi amassed more of these fans than Ronaldo has. Maybe because he's short and dribbles a lot?
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I don't understand either. The people that say there is "no debate" are in a world of their own as far as I'm concerned. Another thing I find ridiculous that people say about Ronaldo is how he is all "hard work and determination" as opposed to natural talent. Don't get me wrong, Ronaldo's work ethic is probably one of the best in the world, but have those people not seen 18 or 19 year old Ronaldo? He was a magically talented wonderkid.

It's the same as people who say Messi wouldn't be as great without Xavi/Iniesta or he hasn't proven himself at another club but like you said, there are less of those ridiculous fans bashing Messi but more of the "there's no debate. Great hardworking goal poacher but not much else"
 
Prometheus said:
Yet they do.

I myself find it hard to separate them. But the most ridiculous nonsense I see in this discussion is usually people who are convinced that there's no debate because Messi is clearly better. For the life of me I can't figure why Messi amassed more of these fans than Ronaldo has. Maybe because he's short and dribbles a lot?
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Well, if there are more people who thinks Messi is better, then maybe that's an indication that he is.
 
BigTimeCharlie said:
Like Messi, constant failure with a team of superstars.

The difference is, had Ronaldo managed to reach a WC final with Portugal - he would ensure they win.
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Portugal, for the most part, have been vastly inferior to the best teams over the last 10 years. Portugal are not one of the superpowers such as Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Spain et al. Expecting Ronaldo to win a World Cup is just silly, Portugal have 10 million inhabitants! Winning the Euros was awesome, but it also shows that "anyone" can win the cup when someone like Eder decides it. I have never understood the World Cup-argument, which is always used to talk up Maradona. Sure deciding a semi-final or final due to brilliance will only look good, but a great player can perform brilliantly in such important games and still lose. Let's say Portugal lose the final 5-4 and Ronaldo scores all four, then not winning the cup simply cannot be used again him.

Consistent brilliance over time is what matters - and that is why Messi and Ronaldo are the GOAT. No-one else is anywhere near.
 
James Peril said:
Portugal, for the most part, have been vastly inferior to the best teams over the last 10 years. Portugal are not one of the superpowers such as Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Spain et al. Expecting Ronaldo to win a World Cup is just silly, Portugal have 10 million inhabitants! Winning the Euros was awesome, but it also shows that "anyone" can win the cup when someone like Eder decides it. I have never understood the World Cup-argument, which is always used to talk up Maradona. Sure deciding a semi-final or final due to brilliance will only look good, but a great player can perform brilliantly in such important games and still lose. Let's say Portugal lose the final 5-4 and Ronaldo scores all four, then not winning the cup simply cannot be used again him.

Consistent brilliance over time is what matters - and that is why Messi and Ronaldo are the GOAT. No-one else is anywhere near.
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Ronaldo is the GOAT, no questions. Messi-fanboys seem to differ.

The context of my first line was linked to the Like Messi. ROnaldo in the Argentina team instead of Messi would possibly have won and retained a world cup - providing he was fit.
 
He would probably be fourth in my list of all time greats, or maybe even joint third (with Maradona).

I'll expect that by the time of his career, he will surpass Maradona and make pressure on Pele and Messi who IMO are the two greatest football players ever (Pele probably edging it).

Definitely, the second best during my lifetime, and the margin between him and the third best (be him Zidane, the other Ronaldo, or Ronaldinho) is far far bigger than the margin between him and Leo.
 
Jev said:
Of course it's a matter of opinion, it's bound to be. I just find it hard to believe that any neutral who has watched them regularly over the years would consider Ronaldo to be the better player. Both are outstanding, both are all-time greats, I just think there's a very clear gap in Messi's favour.
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Personally I think Ronaldo is the "better player" in the sense that he's had to work harder to develop his physical attributes. If you were going to build the perfect footballer you'd have someone fast, strong, resilient to injury, a threat in the air and on the ground. Ronaldo ticks all those boxes and has done it in both the PL, in Spain and at International level.

Messi on the other hand is clearly the more naturally gifted player. If you value his natural skill more then to consider him the better player is fair enough. We're very lucky as football fans to see two players of this quality at the same time.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
2nd best I've seen in terms of consistent impact. Can't say for sure but I imagine he's outside the elite top 3-5 in history. Doesn't influence in enough aspects despite being as brilliant as be us. It's a silly debate though. Few have seen all the greats anyway.
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I find that statement bizarre when he wins games on his own and has done consistently (and at the highest level and in the biggest games) for over a decade.
 
Greatest ever? No, because there's no conversation, it's Maradona. Any other opinion is wrong :lol:

But seriously, one of the very best ever, no argument there
 
I never understand why it matters who's the no.1 player of all time.

There's just a grade or a class of player that gets to be discussed as potentially the best of all time. Messi, Pele, Best, Maradona etc.

For most of the players, the honour is being discussed in the same breath as the rest (no matter what their egotistical throw-away quotes might suggest).
 
Not a GOAT.

To be one he has to win the CL (again) on Saturday and walk off the pitch musing about the future and God's knowledge, then move back to Manchester to be our #9 for the next 5 seasons, winning a treble in the process.

Beat that one club hormone midget! Mwahahah!
We've done this to death, haven't we?
 
For me he isn't, but understand people opinions why he should be considered. This GOAT discussion are also quite pointless as it all depends on your age (what era of football you mainly watched), playing style you like, personal connection to the player so it's impossible to get agreement. The closest thing would be to separate them by the era they played in.

And for Cristiano to get so close, even challenging Messi for the greatest player of this era is quite an achievement. At the end of their playing career they should thank each other as it seems to me they both pushed themselves even more because of their rivalry.
 
Not this again. This is like earing the same song on the radio for almost a decade.

Ronaldo is definitely one of the GOAT but he will never be considered as the GOAT for alot of people. Every single of the main players considered in GOAT list have alot going on in their favor so in the end its all a matter of opinion rather that facts. That's why you can't say that Messi is definitely the GOAT, or Maradona, or Pele, or Ronaldo, etc.

Alot of people could argue that a good portion of Pele's goals were against amateur teams or that Maradona style of life would be his downfall in the modern era of football and he wouldn't be as great as he was but the fact is that what they achieve in their own era was unbelieveble, same as Messi and Ronaldo in the modern era.

For me there's no real GOAT, just a shortlist of players that were atleast 1 level above anyone else and achieved things in the game that most only dream of.
 
He is top 5 behind messi, pele, Maradona, three geniuses of the game.

And then, he is behind di Stefano too IMO.

He's an incredible goalscorer. A legendary one. But the three previously mentioned are capable of producing a legendary moment or winning a match out of nothing. Like the famous goal vs England or the goal against Bilbao at the copa del rey final.
 
Nowhere near the discussion for me. He's an amazing goalscorer for a side that steamrolls pretty much all of their opposition. Ability wise he's not even in the top three of his own era, let alone of all time.

For me Cruijff is the best player ever. For his ability to lead a team and for the impact he's had on the game. And perhaps because I'm slightly biased. I'd put Maradona and Pele above CR as well.
 
I don't care whether he's the GOAT or not, but I have a lot of respect for Ronaldo with how much he's changed his game over the years to remain effective as Father Time comes calling. I also think that regardless of how his antics on the pitch are perceived by us, the fact that virtually all of his teammates for both club and country praise his attitude and vouch for his character as a teammate says far more.
 
I've always been on the camp who thinks he's nowhere near Messi, let alone in a GOAT discussion (a natural conclusion of the first premise).

Yet, from a base point of utterly disliking him a while ago, my admiration towards him grows immensely as time goes by. The way he perseveres, the way he keeps himself in this discussion (to many people, myself not included), his consistency, it challenges my own convictions. At one point I thought Messi was so far ahead that Ronaldo would himself inevitably lose some motivation. Nah, he kept coming back. Not to Messi level, but to better himself constantly, and at the end of the day, his results speak volumes. Without the same talent, he reaches extraordinarily close, and who knows, is perfectly capable of surpassing the GOAT in individual and collective accolades.

That makes him uniquely special in my eyes. Not a GOAT, not in the tier below, but in a unique parallel tier, his own Universe. Being second best isn't easy. By pure denial, he doesn't acknowledge that to be the true, keeps overcoming extraordinary challenges (anyone in 2012 believed he could equal Messi in Ballon d'Or?), and surprises everyone everytime.
 
The ever present debate...

He's not even the best of his generation let alone all time. The tier below Maradona, Pele etc.
 
Enigma_87 said:
The ever present debate...

He's not even the best of his generation let alone all time. The tier below Maradona, Pele etc.
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How often did you see Pele play? Or Maradona? I'm interested because those are the two players everyone refers to. I'm in my early 30's and all I've seen of either in their prime is a few videos. As such it's all based on the myths around them and what they could do.

There's never any winner in this debate, as you'd expect but players usually fair better when looked at years later and are usually defined by one or two brilliant moments that get replayed time and again on the TV. It might be different in the future since you can probably see every goal a player scores in his career at the click of a button.
 
RedRover said:
How often did you see Pele play? Or Maradona? I'm interested because those are the two players everyone refers to. I'm in my early 30's and all I've seen of either in their prime is a few videos. As such it's all based on the myths around them and what they could do.

There's never any winner in this debate, as you'd expect but players usually fair better when looked at years later and are usually defined by one or two brilliant moments that get replayed time and again on the TV. It might be different in the future since you can probably see every goal a player scores in his career at the click of a button.
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There are plenty of full game videos of Maradona and Pele, it's certainly no 'myth' that these 2 are the the best of all time, plenty of footage out there, people don't have this opinion just because of a few clips and hearsay.
 
RedRover said:
I find that statement bizarre when he wins games on his own and has done consistently (and at the highest level and in the biggest games) for over a decade.
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This thread was meant for this apparently. Finding others opinions bizarre. He doesn't do what I said. And on his own is very subjective and in my opinion not true.
 
One of the best I have ever seen. I think the only player considered to be in the greatest list who has considerably changed his style of play; From being a lanky pacy bag-of-tricks winger when he arrived at United to a goal scoring machine at Madrid: his transition is one of a fighter who despite losing out on the Ballon' D'Or 4 consecutive times - that too, to a younger player (2 years) - clawed his way back in the only way he could - by scoring more goals which in turn has led to the rebukes by a few that he's only a poacher who can't do anything else. When everything is done and dusted, his individual, club and national achievements is what will matter most and I bet most can't argue against that but for me he will be the guy who brought OT to it's feet with those tricks and skills - the things he used to do!
 
I love Ronnie, but since Messi really burst onto the scene in 08-09, I have felt that he was just a slight tier below the Barca man. It's no insult, to be sure, but there's no chance he's GOAT. People calling Ronaldo the GOAT are like people who say Kobe has a claim to Jordan's GOAT throne. One had a claim to be the best player of his generation (although again, Messi), the other transcended history. Ronaldo is the Kobe Bryant of this football generation.
 
Well-written, but a strange article, especially this part:
The Messi vs. Ronaldo rivalry is a singular occurrence. Never have the careers of football's greatest players coincided. One thinks of Pele in the 1960s, Johan Cruyff in the 1970s, Maradona in the 1980s and so on. Messi and Ronaldo—who have shared every Ballon d'Or award over the last nine years—drive each other on
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Cruyff had Beckenbauer, whose stance in the game is at least comparable to Ronaldo, and Cruyff himself. Maradona had Zico and Platini outshining him for half of his career; again, both aren't far behind (if any) Cristiano. Talent-wise there are constant comparisons between Pele and Zico, with the latter being less lucky in terms his teammates; Platini provided second-best individual performance in the international tournament, thoroughly outshining anything Ronaldo or Messi done for their country...
 
Kearnkoff69 said:
I love Ronnie, but since Messi really burst onto the scene in 08-09, I have felt that he was just a slight tier below the Barca man. It's no insult, to be sure, but there's no chance he's GOAT. People calling Ronaldo the GOAT are like people who say Kobe has a claim to Jordan's GOAT throne. One had a claim to be the best player of his generation (although again, Messi), the other transcended history. Ronaldo is the Kobe Bryant of this football generation.
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This!!!!

And for thise who mention Pele and Maradona they are like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. Those familiar will the NBA will understand that comparison.

Messi has all the accolades and I would say also is the best footballer ever in terms of his skill and play. Hes arguably the best scorer of all time and arguably the best goal creator of all time. You would be hard pressed to find a guy who can score and assist as much goals as he did in his prime and there probably isnt a player who did score or assist more this past season!
 
BigTimeCharlie said:
I can be, unless injury occurs, Ronaldo always puts in a performance in a final. Either scoring or being MOTM.
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He was terrible in the 09 CL final, far too selfish whenever he got the ball. He's actually been poor in all the CL finals he's played imo, although obviously scoring in 3 is impressive.
 
Sparky10Legend said:
He's not even second tier GOAT.
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Harsh probably. Depends on how you tier them.
Raoul said:
He's done better than both of them (WCs aside).
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How so? Pele has won pretty much everything at club level with 3 WC's to boot in an era where the Brazilian championship was as good if not better than European leagues.
RedRover said:
How often did you see Pele play? Or Maradona? I'm interested because those are the two players everyone refers to. I'm in my early 30's and all I've seen of either in their prime is a few videos. As such it's all based on the myths around them and what they could do.

There's never any winner in this debate, as you'd expect but players usually fair better when looked at years later and are usually defined by one or two brilliant moments that get replayed time and again on the TV. It might be different in the future since you can probably see every goal a player scores in his career at the click of a button.
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There's literally tons of highlights and full matches on youtube, dailymotion, 101 great goals and so forth for Pele. Especially against European opposition you can find his 200 goals or so and decent amount of highlights. Same goes for Maradona and even more.

Pele was a player that had simply no weakness and for me along with his dominance on every stage he played on is the best. Then come of course Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Messi etc.

When you watch him you can see he is so far ahead of his peers, just like Messi is now sweeping all the records and highlights.

There are pre-war players that you can doubt whether all the "fairy tales" about them are true, but with Pele you will find plenty of videos to back his credentials up.
 
Excuse me for interrupting, but some of you seem to be implying that Christiano Ronaldo is a better footballer than was Maradona. If those among you who are doing so were gathered together in the grounds of my grand stately residence, I would set the hounds on you all. Please. I'm begging you. Stop it.
 
I think it's fair to say that there are 4 players who you can put in the GOAT box and you can argue all day who was best but at the end of the day they all deserve to be there

Messi/CR7/Maradona/Pele

Fair play to CR7 for breaking into that elite group when Messi was clearly on another planet to him about 5 years ago. But Messi has been on the wane for a while now as CR7 goes from strength to strength while breaking every record in the game along the way while winning trophy after trophy....It's completely brain-dead so say a GOAT needs to win a world cup like Maradona or Pele because the Champions League has been the elite competition of world football for probably the past 15 years where as in the days of Maradona and Pele it was obviously the world cup.
 
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