Why CR7 Should be Talked About as the GOAT

[harms]

You have to take into consideration that Pele and to a slightly lesser extent Maradona, played during an era when football wasn't properly internationalized. Pele spent his entire career at one club and Maradona, despite moving around, never faced the sort of quality that we see in the present, where footballers from all walks of life are playing in the very best leagues. Their club careers were quite homogenous in that regard

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. Not talking about Pele, although there were great teams in Brazil apart from Santos (especially Garrincha's Botafogo), but when you look at the quality of Serie A in the 1980's...
Maradona faced - not only in the title contenders, but in every team in the league, the likes of Platini, Scirea, Zico, Falcao, Baggio, Cabrini, Boniek, Souness, Rummenigge, Passarella, van Basten, Baresi, Rijkaard, Gullit, Elkjaer, Brehme, Matthaus, Junior, Cerezo, Socrates, Gentile, Vierchowod, Conti et cetera et cetera. Michael fecking Laudrup played for a relegation team, ffs.

Compare it to today's La Liga, where you have a few players of that calibre playing for Barca and Madrid, possibly two who can even try to be compared to those in Atletico (Griezmann and Godin), and then...

 

[harms]

Cristiano isn't top 5

1-Pelé
2-Maradona
3-Messi
4-Ronaldo (BR)
5-Di Stefano

Come on, if your life is on the line there's no way you pick Cristiano ahead of Messi or Ronaldo Fenomeno to win a match. He's the one that depends most on his team mates to put him through in front of the keeper. If ge's not provided elite service his lanky ass just gets sandwiched by the two banks of four and has minimal impact with his back to goal.

That's depends on your system - if you pick a player that should single-handedly win you the game against some alien invaders, it's hard to look past Maradona. It certainly isn't a given that Brazilian Ronaldo should be ahead of Cristiano at this point. At his peak El Fenomeno was unplayable in a way that Cristiano never was, and he was better for his national team, but Cristiano without any contest beats him on consistency and an influence on a club level; and overall he is a better goalscorer, even though if it's for one game, I'd pick the Brazilian.

But on that basis you can also include Ronaldinho at the very top of the list - while objectively he isn't.

 

[Theonas]

oh come on, seriously? whats with the over exaggeration all the time. I like Ronaldo, Im a fan, I think he is up there close to messi but the mentality and work ethic thing... seriously. He absolutely has a massive work ethic and mentality but there have been plenty of other sports people and footballers who have also exhibited similar. Just stop with the over the top stuff please.

I think you're reading too much into mate. I'm not even a fan of his as you could probably tell. Unparalleled may be a strong word but I do believe that his natural talent is seriously limited when compared to the likes of Maradona, Messi, Cruyff, Ronaldinho or Brazilian Ronaldo to name a few. I think those players exist on another dimension to him in that regard. For me his natural talent is closer to the likes of Figo for example. So the idea that he is squeezing that much out of it to the point where some (not me) even attempt to discuss him in the same breath as some of the all time great cannot be explained by anything other than his mentality and work ethic.

 

[2mufc0]

This is a really solid argument. I mean the bit where you compared the quality of the leagues for the different eras.

Not really, have you seen the cannon fodder Barca and Real play against the majority of the time in La Liga? It's pretty much a 2 team league, with Atletico now and then putting in a challenge. The amount of 5-0 nil scorelines highlights the gulf in quality between Barca / Real and the rest.

Another thing often overlooked is the amount of protection referees give modern players, you just have to look at Gentile vs Maradona and Zico to see how difficult was for them, these players were incredibly brave.

 

[2mufc0]

I think you're reading too much into mate. I'm not even a fan of his as you could probably tell. Unparalleled may be a strong word but I do believe that his natural talent is seriously limited when compared to the likes of Maradona, Messi, Cruyff, Ronaldinho or Brazilian Ronaldo to name a few. I think those players exist on another dimension to him in that regard. For me his natural talent is closer to the likes of Figo for example. So the idea that he is squeezing that much out of it to the point where some (not me) even attempt to discuss him in the same breath as some of the all time great cannot be explained by anything other than his mentality and work ethic.

Disagree, Ronaldo is an incredibly gifted athlete and footballer.

There are plenty of guys with similar mentality in the game. Imo Zlatan's mentality is just as good.

 

[Theonas]

That's depends on your system - if you pick a player that should single-handedly win you the game against some alien invaders, it's hard to look past Maradona. It certainly isn't a given that Brazilian Ronaldo should be ahead of Cristiano at this point. At his peak El Fenomeno was unplayable in a way that Cristiano never was, and he was better for his national team, but Cristiano without any contest beats him on consistency and an influence on a club level; and overall he is a better goalscorer, even though if it's for one game, I'd pick the Brazilian.

But on that basis you can also include Ronaldinho at the very top of the list - while objectively he isn't.

Very good points. It seems everyone acknowledges that judging the best players is always dependent on the criteria one chooses, yet nobody seems to bother specifying it. I think the reason for this is that most football fans view those stand out moments of flair and "magic" if you will that the likes of Maradona, Messi can produce as simply too much of a decisive criteria. Take Zidane for example, his consistency was seriously questionable and yet his status of legend is agreed upon by most football fans. The criteria of consistency simply does not carry the same aura or awe, that's not to say it's less relevant of course.

 

[Theonas]

Disagree, Ronaldo is an incredibly gifted athlete and footballer.

There are plenty of guys with similar mentality in the game. Imo Zlatan's mentality is just as good.

Well of course he is incredibly gifted. If you are not incredibly gifted, you wouldn't even be part of debates like this. We are talking here about gifted in relation to others. I don't think he is as gifted as the names I mentioned. I would even add the likes of Best, Zico and Platini as more naturally gifted footballers. As I said, his level of talent for me qualifies him to be a "normal" great player in the mould Figo, not a one off machine like phenomena.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I think it depends on how someone wants to rank players.

If we are talking a 2-3 year peak talent then CR would have a hard time slotting into the Top 15 even behind players like Garrincha, Best, Ronaldinho, R9.

But if we are talking entire career achievements then a solid argument could be made that is he Top 5-6.

For me personally that averages out and I'd rate him somewhere between Top 9-11 - although these exercises are also subjective at this point and subject to personal preferences

 

[Raoul]

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. Not talking about Pele, although there were great teams in Brazil apart from Santos (especially Garrincha's Botafogo), but when you look at the quality of Serie A in the 1980's...
Maradona faced - not only in the title contenders, but in every team in the league, the likes of Platini, Scirea, Zico, Falcao, Baggio, Cabrini, Boniek, Souness, Rummenigge, Passarella, van Basten, Baresi, Rijkaard, Gullit, Elkjaer, Brehme, Matthaus, Junior, Cerezo, Socrates, Gentile, Vierchowod, Conti et cetera et cetera. Michael fecking Laudrup played for a relegation team, ffs.

Compare it to today's La Liga, where you have a few players of that calibre playing for Barca and Madrid, possibly two who can even try to be compared to those in Atletico (Griezmann and Godin), and then...

All great players but let's remember, the sampling of players in any of the major European leagues is much more heterogeneous now than it was in those days. Today, you literally have all the worlds good footballers from every corner of the globe intensely competing for spots in a few top leagues. In the old days, nearly all good South American footballers stayed in South America, whereas today nearly all of them are in Europe. In those days nearly all good players of African descent were nowhere to be seen in the top Euro leagues, whereas today they are nearly all in Europe. When you combine all these factors, it's easy to see why the level of intensity and overall play are significantly higher in the present. This makes Ronaldo and Messi's decade of dominance all the more impressive.

 

[2mufc0]

Well of course he is incredibly gifted. If you are not incredibly gifted, you wouldn't even be part of debates like this. We are talking here about gifted in relation to others. I don't think he is as gifted as the names I mentioned. I would even add the likes of Best, Zico and Platini as more naturally gifted footballers. As I said, his level of talent for me qualifies him to be a "normal" great player in the mould Figo, not a one off machine like phenomena.

Its a strange way to big up Ronaldo but it happens often, his natural abilities get criminally under rated.

He has comparable level of skill compared to all those players you listed minus the dribbling and passing (even though this aspect of his game is under rated). On the other hand his finishing, positional sense in the box and heading ability is above those you listed.

It's time we let go of this myth.

 

[GM K]

Not really, have you seen the cannon fodder Barca and Real play against the majority of the time in La Liga? It's pretty much a 2 team league, with Atletico now and then putting in a challenge. The amount of 5-0 nil scorelines highlights the gulf in quality between Barca / Real and the rest.

Another thing often overlooked is the amount of protection referees give modern players, you just have to look at Gentile vs Maradona and Zico to see how difficult was for them, these players were incredibly brave.

Hmnn, very important points here.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

This makes Ronaldo and Messi's decade of dominance all the more impressive.

Or, it makes it far less impressive as they have both been surrounded with super teams for their entire career in ways that Pele, Zico et al only experience for a year or two at a time or a tournament or two at a time - especially when we take into account the immensely lopsided La Liga TV money of the last decade that gave both RM and Barca an unprecedented financial advantage over the other La Liga teams.

 

[Raoul]

Or, it makes it far less impressive as they have both been surrounded with super teams for their entire career in ways that Pele, Zico et al only experience for a year or two at a time or a tournament or two at a time.

Being on goood teams doesn't however nullify their individual stats. They've both countinued to relentlessly perform at he world beater level for a decade irrespective of who the supporting cast was.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Being on goood teams doesn't however nullify their individual stats. .

Well it neither elevates their achievement nor downgrades the achievements of the past greats either as your first statement implied.

 

[Raoul]

Well it neither elevates their achievement nor downgrade the achievements of the past greats either as your first statement implied.

It actually elevates it when you factor in my previous point about the general quality football being significantly higher in the European leagues over the past 15-20 years than it was 30-50 years ago.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

It actually elevates it when you factor in my previous point about the general quality football being significantly higher in the European leagues over the past 15-20 years than it was 30-50 years ago.

I disagree completely that globalization factors makes their decade more impressive as you implied and to me it actually lessens the historical impact compared to past greats from Di Stefano to Cruyff to Zico.

 

[harms]

All great players but let's remember, the sampling of players in any of the major European leagues is much more heterogeneous now than it was in those days. Today, you literally have all the worlds good footballers from every corner of the globe intensely competing for spots in a few top leagues. In the old days, nearly all good South American footballers stayed in South America, whereas today nearly all of them are in Europe. In those days nearly all good players of African descent were nowhere to be seen in the top Euro leagues, whereas today they are nearly all in Europe. When you combine all these factors, it's easy to see why the level of intensity and overall play are significantly higher in the present. This makes Ronaldo and Messi's decade of dominance all the more impressive.

If you're saying that the amount of talented footballers is the same in every generation (which isn't true), then yes. If you're saying that today's Villareal (5th place) will beat AC Milan that finished 5th when Maradona won his first Serie A title, I'll just simply question your football knowledge.

Never were - before or after - a bigger amount of international superstars concentrated in one league than in 80's Serie A (the 90's comes close). Players who are among the best in history in their respective positions played for midtable clubs and outsiders - because of the 3 foreigners rule and the fact that everyone wanted to play in Italy.

 

[Theonas]

Its a strange way to big up Ronaldo but it happens often, his natural abilities get criminally under rated.

He has comparable level of skill compared to all those players you listed minus the dribbling and passing (even though this aspect of his game is under rated). On the other hand his finishing, positional sense in the box and heading ability is above those you listed.

It's time we let go of this myth.

It's not a myth, it is simply down to how define skill. There is no right or wrong here but you will find many who do not consider positional sense, heading ability and finishing as natural skills. Dribbling and to a lesser extent are considered more traditional criteria to evaluate skill. Again I repeat there is no right or wrong here as this all comes down to semantics. But most legendary players had that ability to dribble, that delicate touch and control that the likes of Maradona and Messi possess. Maybe it is a semantic confusion but it is not a myth.

 

[Raoul]

I disagree completely that globalization factors makes their decade more impressive as you implied and to me it actually lessens the historical impact compared to past greats from Di Stefano to Cruyff to Zico.

I don't think it would be a stretch to assume Pele wouldn't have scored 1000 league goals in a higher quality league in Europe from the 50s-70s. Nor would it be one to say Maradonna would be significantly less effective if he played in a modern European league that included today's fully internationalized footballers.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't think it would be a stretch to assume Pele wouldn't have scored 1000 league goals in a higher quality league in Europe from the 50s-70s. Nor would it be one to say Maradonna would be significantly less effective if he played in a modern European league that included today's fully internationalized footballers.

Wasn't the Brasileirao a top league at the time?

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

He is probably the greatest goal scorer of all time. But like puskas and Muller he will not be up there with Pele, Diego and Best and Messi.

Scorers always come second to productive flair players that dribble and entertain.

 

[TsuWave]

He is probably the greatest goal scorer of all time. But like puskas and Muller he will not be up there with Pele, Diego and Best and Messi.

Scorers always come second to productive flair players that dribble and entertain.

but ronaldo was also the best player in the world as a productive flair player that dribbles and entertains

 

[NoPace]

I can really only discuss players from about 2002 or so on, but I think Cristiano is ahead of Ronaldinho and Zidane and a level below Messi, who is his equal as a goalscorer but a much better playmaker.

I saw Original Ronaldo when he was already struggling with injuries, but I will say that I find it difficult to believe a 9 who scores a goal a game but isn't known as a great creator of goals for others could have had as much impact as Cristiano scoring a goal a game from the wing and still creating a decent amount for others. That's 30-35 more goals a season than a good winger, whereas the 9 next to Cristiano can still grab 25-30 a year himself even while somewhat sacrificing their goalscoring output to help Cristiano score more goals. I think it's just a numbers thing. Maybe Zidane was better to watch, but goals win games. I'm a romantic, but the point is to win.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

I wonder how Ronaldo would have been viewed if there was no Messi and he had cleaned up 7+ Ballon D'ors and had the same goalscoring record?

 

[Champagne Football]

Not really. It was already a quite crowded place with Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano and Cruyff, now Messi obviously followed, but I'm not sure what Cristiano did that leveled him with Di Stefano or Cruyff and put him ahead of Beckenbauer, Platini, G. Müller and a few others. It's all very close (and even the gap between say, Platini and Maradona isn't that big), so personal preference and everything, but it's definitely not "fair to say" that Cristiano is one of the four best footballers to ever grace the pitch.

Many will say he is the GOAT himself. In 50 years from now I don't think Platini, Di Stefano or Beckenbauer will be talked about too often. But the great Messi and Ronaldo rivalry will be a common discussion at that point in the future. The level or professionalism today is way beyond what it has ever been. Messi and Ronaldo have been doing for 10 years straight against super human defenders what the GOAT's of a more distant past did for perhaps a few seasons

 

[Stack]

Many will say he is the GOAT himself. In 50 years from now I don't think Platini, Di Stefano or Beckenbauer will be talked about too often. But the great Messi and Ronaldo rivalry will be a common discussion at that point in the future. The level or professionalism today is way beyond what it has ever been. Messi and Ronaldo have been doing for 10 years straight against super human defenders what the GOAT's of a more distant past did for perhaps a few seasons

your joking right??

 

[harms]

Messi and Ronaldo have been doing for 10 years straight against super human defenders what the GOAT's of a more distant past did for perhaps a few seasons

The defenders of today are hardly comparable to the top crop of the 80's/early 90's. And check out Pele's career, if you think that he has done what he's done for a few seasons - he pretty much maintained 1 in 1 record for 20 odd years (although some of his opponents were subpar - but so are some of Ronaldo's and Messi's today, I mean they are absolutely trashing the likes of Osasuna week in week out). Di Stefano won 5 European Cups, scoring a hat-trick in his last final aged 34 (and he wasn't a late bloomer).

I have nothing against the opinion that Messi or Ronaldo are better than Pele/Di Stefano/Cruyff, but the arguments here suggest that those opinions are often based on ignorance rather than genuine comparison.

 

[Synco]

He is probably the greatest goal scorer of all time. But like puskas and Muller he will not be up there with Pele, Diego and Best and Messi.

Scorers always come second to productive flair players that dribble and entertain.

I haven't seen much of Puskas, but he has the reputation of a fantastic overall footballer. Maybe others can clear that up.

 

[Champagne Football]

your joking right??

Well you take Maradona for example - In a poll in Brazil's top magazine - something like 60% of Brazilians said Maradona was better than Pele. Maradona was widely considered the best there's ever been after Mexico 86. Maradona's performances in that tournament will never be matched in a world cup. But apart from that tournament, He has a few league titles and a world cup in his medals cabinet. Beyond those seasons and can you say he was consistently amazing for a decade? I honestly don't know and doubt it. But when talking about GOAT's who did it for the longest period of time then it's hard to look further than Messi and Ronaldo and their decade dominance of coming either first or second in the Ballon D'or every year for past 10 years and that proves something and this sort of dominance of the award has never been seen before.

 

[RedRover]

There are plenty of full game videos of Maradona and Pele, it's certainly no 'myth' that these 2 are the the best of all time, plenty of footage out there, people don't have this opinion just because of a few clips and hearsay.

I didn't say it was a myth. My point is that by the nature of the eras they played in a lot of fans who call them the greatest ever are doing so because It's the done thing.

You may have watched hours and hours of footage from the 1960's with Pele showing his skills, or loads of random League games Maradona played in.

I suspect though that most haven't so it therefore supports the argument that a lot of people who say they're the greatest of all time base that on what's a become common footballing opinion and a few snapshots of footage generally available.

For clarity, they were both great players but I personally believe that players never get full recognition until they retire and older fans, intent on believing their era of football was the best tell younger fans "x player is good, but he's no Messi".

 

[RedRover]

This thread was meant for this apparently. Finding others opinions bizarre. He doesn't do what I said. And on his own is very subjective and in my opinion not true.

And you're entitled to your opinion. I just found it interesting that a player who scores so many goals (and important goals too) could criticised for not getting involved in other aspects of the game.

 

[Raoul]

The defenders of today are hardly comparable to the top crop of the 80's/early 90's.

I'd argue that athletes are generally better today than any time before. Sports science, nutrition, and training methods are more advanced. Athletes are therefore faster, more powerful and more agile and generally better, especially when you factor in that there are a broader swath of South Americans, players of African descent and (some) Asians playing in Europe now compared with just Europeans during the Pele/Maradona era.

And check out Pele's career, if you think that he has done what he's done for a few seasons - he pretty much maintained 1 in 1 record for 20 odd years (although some of his opponents were subpar - but so are some of Ronaldo's and Messi's today.

Pele's career was spent in the Spaghetti Western Brazilian league, so its not entirely surprising that an all time great calibre player would spend his entire career running circles around defenders like he was on world class level on Fifa and the opposition were novice. There's simply no comparison between the uber-homogenous Brazilian league of the 50s and 60s, and today's La Liga, which is rammed with good players from many different countries.

 

[harms]

I haven't seen much of Puskas, but he has the reputation of a fantastic overall footballer. Maybe others can clear that up.

Yeah, he was hardly a limited goalscorer. Neither was Müller to be fair, but Puskas was incredibly gifted, and was an entertainer par excellence

 

[harms]

I'd argue that athletes are generally better today than any time before. Sports science, nutrition, and training methods are more advanced. Athletes are therefore faster, more powerful and more agile and generally better, especially when you factor in that there are a broader swath of South Americans, players of African descent and (some) Asians playing in Europe now compared with just Europeans during the Pele/Maradona era.

And does that athlete defend better than Baresi? Scratch that, then the "average" Italian defender of that time like Vierchowod, Ferrara or Collovati?
Ramos is seen as an elite defender today (and he is definitely an elite athlete) - and that says everything.

Anyway, the sport science thing and training methods is overrated - we have enough lazy footballers who are more then good enough to play for a midtable English/Spanish club, and even without the same science Pele or Boniek or Blokhin were a much better athletes. Heck, Pele was undoubtedly a better athlete than Messi, who runs around 5 km per game for the last 3 years.

 

[RedRover]

Harsh probably. Depends on how you tier them.

How so? Pele has won pretty much everything at club level with 3 WC's to boot in an era where the Brazilian championship was as good if not better than European leagues.


There's literally tons of highlights and full matches on youtube, dailymotion, 101 great goals and so forth for Pele. Especially against European opposition you can find his 200 goals or so and decent amount of highlights. Same goes for Maradona and even more.

Pele was a player that had simply no weakness and for me along with his dominance on every stage he played on is the best. Then come of course Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Messi etc.

When you watch him you can see he is so far ahead of his peers, just like Messi is now sweeping all the records and highlights.

There are pre-war players that you can doubt whether all the "fairy tales" about them are true, but with Pele you will find plenty of videos to back his credentials up.

As I've said above, how many people have watched them?

Loads of people say Pele and Maradona are the best. It's the generally accepted line if you did a straw pole in your local pub. The vast majority won't have based their opinion of footage on YouTube, not least because most people over a certain age don't sit watching videos online.

It's interesting now that you can watch every Real or Barca game on TV. That's a relatively new phenomenon. As a result I personally think it's easier to criticise a player you can watch over 45 games and nit-pick at their little weaknesses than it is to do the same of a player you've seen on YouTube but who your grandad or dad told you were the best ever.

My loose point generally was that players become "better" a decade of two later. As I said above, fans often want to believe their generation of the game was the best and had the best players.

 

[Raoul]

And does that athlete defend better than Baresi? Scratch that, then the "average" Italian defender of that time like Vierchowod, Ferrara or Collovati?
Ramos is seen as an elite defender today (and he is definitely an elite athlete) - and that says everything.

Anyway, the sport science thing and training methods is overrated - we have enough lazy footballers who are more then good enough to play for a midtable English/Spanish club, and even without the same science Pele or Boniek or Blokhin were a much better athletes. Heck, Pele was undoubtedly a better athlete than Messi, who runs around 5 km per game for the last 3 years.

Its a fairly commonly accepted notion in Sport that players of the present are better than those of the past assuming both were to swap places. That applies to every major sport. You can even extrapolate backwards even further and make a logical claim that players in the 60/70s were better than those of the 20s/30s. As the game evolves, so does everything from coaching to player conditioning to training methods to overall play.

So we can ask whether anyone of today is better than Baresi was, but the broader point is that players of the present are generally far better conditioned and coached than those from previous generations.

 

[don't sign old players]

So it's instinct, temperament and inherent skill that really makes the difference when it boils down to it.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'd argue that athletes are generally better today than any time before. Sports science, nutrition, and training methods are more advanced. Athletes are therefore faster, more powerful and more agile and generally better, especially when you factor in that there are a broader swath of South Americans, players of African descent and (some) Asians playing in Europe now compared with just Europeans during the Pele/Maradona era.

Which is something Pele didn't take advantage of in the past. Modern day Pele with all the nutrition and training regimes will be less injury prone, stronger, faster, generally even better.

Pele didn't have the advantage of fast balls of today, modern cleats, perfect pitches and so forth. I mean look what Messi said after one of Argentina's defeats:

Messi: “I don't like making excuses but the pitch conditions didn't help us today.”

Compare it to pitches in the 60's and early 70's.

On a side note here's a compilation of how Pele was "handled" at the time.

How much time would Messi and Ronaldo will spend sidelined if the same defensive "methods" were applicable today?

Pele's career was spent in the Spaghetti Western Brazilian league, so its not entirely surprising that an all time great calibre player would spend his entire career running circles around defenders like he was on world class level on Fifa and the opposition were novice. There's simply no comparison between the uber-homogenous Brazilian league of the 50s and 60s, and today's La Liga, which is rammed with good players from many different countries.

Yeah, no. Botafogo team in the 60's boasted with the likes of Garrincha, Didi, Nílton Santos, Gérson, Amarildo, Zagallo, Jairzinho and had most players regulars for the seleção at the time.

Cruzeiro also had some success in the late 60's with Tostão, Dirceu Lopez, Evaldo, Piazza, Natal and beat Pele's Santos 6-2 (a game that is also on Youtube).

Then you had Palmeiras with Ademir da Guia in the late 60's.

Then you can look further in South America with Spencer's and Joya Penarol where also Figueroa played significant part, later in the early 70's captaining a solid Internacional side.

Estudiantes in the late 60's early 70's had a great team.

Pele's Santos also shouldn't be underestimated with Pepe, Coutinho, Zito, Carlos Alberto, Clodoaldo, Gilmar.

I can understand if you are going about the format at the time, but calling Brazillian football Spaghetti league in the 60's is way off the mark. The best players at the time played in South America and Pele faced them time and time coming on top.

And just after that you have him destroying great European sides including Benfica, Real, Barca, Inter, State Reims and basically all top European teams at the time.

Then after all that you have his impeccable international record including a 17 years old Pele completely destroying the best Sweden side of all time and one of the best French side consisting of Kopa and Fontaine.

 

[Enigma_87]

As I've said above, how many people have watched them?

Loads of people say Pele and Maradona are the best. It's the generally accepted line if you did a straw pole in your local pub. The vast majority won't have based their opinion of footage on YouTube, not least because most people over a certain age don't sit watching videos online.

It's interesting now that you can watch every Real or Barca game on TV. That's a relatively new phenomenon. As a result I personally think it's easier to criticise a player you can watch over 45 games and nit-pick at their little weaknesses than it is to do the same of a player you've seen on YouTube but who your grandad or dad told you were the best ever.

My loose point generally was that players become "better" a decade of two later. As I said above, fans often want to believe their generation of the game was the best and had the best players.

It's true that 50-60% of the footage of Pele in his prime is missing and generally wasn't on TV in the same sense like you get to watch Barca and Real nowadays, but there is plenty to base objective(or subjective) opinion on.

For me nowadays is easier to get to those numbers as the quality over the teams in CL and La Liga is far from equally spread. You have Barca and Real completely dominating the rest of the teams, bar Atletico recently. If you just take their bench players it would easily be the 3rd best team in La Liga and possibly also in CL.

Then you have defenders nowadays vs the ones from old days. I mean it's hard to rate Messi and Ronaldo bullying the best defenders nowadays in Stones, Luis and Ottamendi in the later stages of CL, above Pele doing the same in WC final against Facchetti, Rosato and Burgnich, or Maradona against Scirea, Baresi, Vierchowod, Bergomi and the likes, right?

One of your best defenders in the last 10 years is certain Ramos, who Ronaldinho used to make a complete mockery of time and time again. Nowadays and in the last 10 years Barca and Real are so far off ahead of the rest that it makes it a bit of uneven battle, compared to what Maradona had to face in Seria A for example in the 80's in a league based around quality defending and first and foremost against the idea of conceding goals.

I disagree completely that nowadays players are better than those of the past due to training regimes, nutrition and coaching. They are better athletes and most of them are that - athletes rather than footballers. If Pele was given the access to the same nutrition and regimes he'd look built like a tank just like Ronaldo, even more.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Its a fairly commonly accepted notion in Sport that players of the present are better than those of the past assuming both were to swap places. That applies to every major sport.

It's commonly accepted that players are generally more athletic now (the Olympic records can represent this) but whether makes things "better" is very debatable and hardly commonly accepted. Also technique is something timeless across eras and arguably more important than athleticism in aesthetics. If someone is talent enough and spends enough time with the ball their technique will be legendary. Give someone like Pele or Di Stefano same modern advantages and they would excel even more.

I don't think it would be a stretch to assume Pele wouldn't have scored 1000 league goals in a higher quality league in Europe from the 50s-70s. .

Indeed. He would get 1000 +1