We should? The whole premise of my thread is that this is not the case. Those players are NOT better players by a significant margin, neither in theory nor in practice.
We have too many players who aren't cut out for the highest level
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We should? The whole premise of my thread is that this is not the case. Those players are NOT better players by a significant margin, neither in theory nor in practice.
Well, aside from the fact Chelsea also aren't all that either, they signed Fabregas and Costa. And that alone was significant in the first half of the season. Arsenal signed Sanchez and Ozil. They signed Cech, they have Mertersaker. Heck, even Welbeck has more top team pedigree than Mata, for a fraction of the cost.
Someone like Mata, for example, has never shown he can be part of a title winning team. People are hanging onto what they feel he could do at the highest level, not what he's shown he can actually do at the highest level. That's the difference.
I didn't say that players from Barcelona and Madrid are needed. Sometimes players are just good enough without that experience (Martial, for example.) These guys aren't.
Why is it surprising that a bunch of players signed from not-great teams (who haven't won a decent league title between them and have no international pedigree) suddenly become a not-great team?
And you say in your next post that people think the squad is 'shite'. I certainly never used that word. It's top six - about Tottenham's level (though I'd say Tottenham shade it). They're overachieving, and United aren't. That's about it.
I definitely do not agree that Spurs are over achieving - rather Pochettino has bought wisely and has got a very good group of players to play very good football and who might be on the verge of seriously challenging for the title for the next 3-5 years. Obviously the manager is important and Van Gaal patently isn't having much of a positive effect on our group, but our group isn't all that. He's made some very average buys and not made some acquisitions we might have hoped for, though him being the manager I can see how it's become much harder to attract some of the better players in Europe.
I want to say that Darmian played at Torino - that's a bit like the Aston Villa of Italy, Depay played in Holland - say no more, Schneiderlin played at Southampton, before that at Strasbourg I think, Herrera at Bilbao - what level are we really talking about here?
1. Much better manager, he has them playing good style of football which plays to the players strengths
2. Also Because their players aren't a bunch of mecernaries like ours are it seems ours just want their massive undeserved pay packet at the end of the week.
3. No we don't have much better players than Leicester its ignorant to think so
Attackers - vardy and maherez are 10 times better than any of our front options (apart from martial)
Midfielders - Kante and drinkwater are two of the best midfielders in the league this year not one of our midfielders has come close to them
Do you actually realize what you are writing?
1. That's the only correct thing you wrote, they have better managers and that's the only reason why they are better.
2. You think that Kanté, Mahrez, Fuchs and the rest joined Leicester for their love of the city or their passion for their boyhood club, Leicester City.
3. At the exception of Mahrez all their players are inferior, all of them, the difference and that's a big one is that they are playing in a team, a team created for that group of player, Ranieri built a team for his players, he built a gameplan for his players and they love it and thrive in it.
People moaning about where we signed some of our players from. Some of our best players came from what you would now call, even then call, lower level clubs. Irwin, Bruce and Pallister. It is how they are managed and nurtured once they get here that matters.
Big clubs buy players from smaller clubs, because big clubs have no intentions of selling their own players. People are hurt and are starting to make stupid points.
I can't take you seriously when you say stuff like this.
Haha, you're contradicting yourself from post to post, Poch has made great buys, but ours are not all that because they were signed from small clubs, so, from which clubs did Pochettino sign those players at Spurs?
If you have such a thin squad and players like Lingard starting week in week out, you're in trouble
I honestly couldn't believe I read that.
Then you're wrong. Honestly, these players are not better than Stoke, Bournemouth & Sunderland players? Really?
Well they're obviously not inferior or else we'd be sitting top of the league and they'd be sitting where we are now
On my 2nd point that wasn't what I meant either it's nothing to do with the club or players wanting to join the club. I meant that Leicesters players show effort and desire in matches they don't play for wages they show massive commitment in matches whereas our lot seem to be more interested in what they're going to spend their inflated wages on each week and show next to no passion or desire to actually perform to a acceptable standard never mind actually win a match.
Laugh all you like. All these clubs have outplayed us this season. I think the joke is on you.Then you're wrong. Honestly, these players are not better than Stoke, Bournemouth & Sunderland players? Really?
As for great buys from Pochettino - Ali, Eriksen, Alderweireld, Lamela is now looking like the player he was touted to be coming from Serie A a couple of years ago.
You did not answer my question. Our players are not all that & definitely not good enough to compete at the top, I agree with you, 100%. But your reason is because of the clubs we signed them from (you cited Torino, compared to Aston Villa etc) - so, how are Pochettino's buys great when Alli came from the lower league, Eriksen from Holland just like Depay, Alderweireld was shit in Spain? If you make a good point and give shit reasons, you undermine your own point.
"These clubs have outplayed us this season, therefore they have better players" what a twisted logic.
That wasn't my reasoning at all. Read the post I replied to and you'll understand the context in which I made my reply.
Specifically this bit: previously highly rated players performing at high level
If that's the definition of a high level, then you might as well say any club in the top division of any country. Now if that's your high standard, we are as good as the league leaders. Perhaps. But we are not are we?
No, twisted logic is getting beaten by teams and then claiming our players are better than the ones who just beat us.
If you can't differentiate between having players & actually performing to your abilities, then that's your problem.
So you don't know what good spirit, teamwork and synergy mean?
Your second point is interesting because it has nothing to do with being mercenaries, Leicester players are playing like that because they enjoy themselves because they are confident and live well together. And they trust the manager.
Our problem is simple, we lack quality in our first XI that's true, I will even say that we lack quality in our roster because if LVG wants to play in 4231 or 433 we lack two right wingers and a striker. But the 9 other players are good enough for a top 4 finish. But like I hinted LVG for some reason decided to use formations and instructions that doesn't suit his roster and he is an idiot.
We could play in 442 diamond or 4312, that way we wouldn't have to rely on the wingers that we don't have, instead of that he plays a system that exposes our weaknesses, that's the problem that we are facing we have an idiot for manager who doesn't care about exposing his players weaknesses, he has done it every weeks since he joined us, he is a moron and he chattered his players confidence and self belief.
It's not my problem. It's my view. I won't be solving any problems. Strange you appear to think that I might.
It's pointless to discuss with someone who thinks he's right and that there's no merit in anything anyone else says. You carry on believing that we are much better than we really are.
I don't believe that we have a poor squad
Lets go player by player:
DDG- Possibly the best GK right now
Romero- Although not great, pretty decent shot stopper. 1st choice for Argentina
Darmian- Italy's greatest strength has been defence and he is their 1st choice RB. We were pretty happy when he was signed and was then touted as among top 5 RBs
Valencia- Eh, but still an international. Versatile to some extent.
Smalling- England's best CB, among best in league.
PJ- Always injured and not very intelligent. But still fancy him to be a good defender if has an extended injury free run. Has strength, and also is brave.
Rojo- A decent defender and was part of WC all star team.
Shaw- definitely among top 3 young LBs and among the best LBs in PL
Blind- Versatile, good reader of the game, good long balls
Fellaini- Part of Belgian set up who are among the best teams
Carrick- Great passer
Schneiderlin- Possibly most consistent CDM in Eng for last 2-3 years
Herrera- Can score, energetic and if played attackingly is a great player
Schweini- WC winner 2 years ago and was integral part of their side
Mata- Easily the most intelligent player and most technically proficient player. Chelsea's player of the season 2 times in a row, including the season when they won UCL
Depay- Eredivisie top scorer. WC best young player nominee, not sure if he won or not
Young- great crosser of late, very direct player, among the best crossers
Martial- Great player.
Rooney- Top scorer for Eng, still has something left in him.
All in all, every player is a current international barring 2- one is a Spanish MF and Young is not getting in only because of God knows what. And all of them are player for top 10 countries except Valencia.
As far as Rooney is concerned- no Utd striker has been successful under LVG, even MArtial was anonymous yesterday and his best chance came when drifting in from wide.
Won't say our side is bad, but it seriously lacks depth
Lets go player by player:
DDG- Possibly the best GK right now
Romero- Although not great, pretty decent shot stopper. 1st choice for Argentina
Darmian- Italy's greatest strength has been defence and he is their 1st choice RB. We were pretty happy when he was signed and was then touted as among top 5 RBs
Valencia- Eh, but still an international. Versatile to some extent.
Smalling- England's best CB, among best in league.
PJ- Always injured and not very intelligent. But still fancy him to be a good defender if has an extended injury free run. Has strength, and also is brave.
Rojo- A decent defender and was part of WC all star team.
Shaw- definitely among top 3 young LBs and among the best LBs in PL
Blind- Versatile, good reader of the game, good long balls
Fellaini- Part of Belgian set up who are among the best teams
Carrick- Great passer
Schneiderlin- Possibly most consistent CDM in Eng for last 2-3 years
Herrera- Can score, energetic and if played attackingly is a great player
Schweini- WC winner 2 years ago and was integral part of their side
Mata- Easily the most intelligent player and most technically proficient player. Chelsea's player of the season 2 times in a row, including the season when they won UCL
Depay- Eredivisie top scorer. WC best young player nominee, not sure if he won or not
Young- great crosser of late, very direct player, among the best crossers
Martial- Great player.
Rooney- Top scorer for Eng, still has something left in him.
All in all, every player is a current international barring 2- one is a Spanish MF and Young is not getting in only because of God knows what. And all of them are player for top 10 countries except Valencia.
As far as Rooney is concerned- no Utd striker has been successful under LVG, even MArtial was anonymous yesterday and his best chance came when drifting in from wide.
Won't say our side is bad, but it seriously lacks depth
The manager is clearly the wrong man for the club, but clearly some players are not at the kind of level we would expect of a United player. Remember we are a champions league winning club, the richest in the world bar none apparently, with strong tradition and history, yet there are players at our club who are vastly overrated. Whilst you can place a lot of the blame with the manager, you cannot excuse the players entirely.
Here are another set of current internationals:
Pos. Player Date of birth (age) Caps Goals Club
GK Gunnleifur Gunnleifsson 14 July 1975 (age 40) 26 0
BreiðablikGK Ögmundur Kristinsson 19 June 1989 (age 26) 8 0
Hammarby IFDF Birkir Már Sævarsson 11 November 1984 (age 31) 55 0
Hammarby IFDF Ari Freyr Skúlason 14 May 1987 (age 28) 36 0
OBDF Hallgrímur Jónasson 4 May 1986 (age 29) 15 3
OBDF Jón Guðni Fjóluson 10 April 1989 (age 26) 8 0
IFK NorrköpingDF Hjörtur Hermannsson 8 February 1995 (age 21) 1 0
IFK GöteborgDF Diego Jóhannesson 3 October 1993 (age 22) 1 0
Real OviedoMF Arnór Smárason 7 September 1988 (age 27) 18 2
Hammarby IFMF Rúnar Már Sigurjónsson 18 June 1990 (age 25) 9 1
GIF SundsvallMF Guðmundur Þórarinsson 15 April 1992 (age 23) 3 0
NordsjællandMF Kristinn Steindórsson 29 April 1990 (age 25) 2 2
GIF SundsvallMF Aron Elís Þrándarson 10 November 1994 (age 21) 1 0
AalesundsMF Aron Sigurðarson 8 October 1993 (age 22) 1 1
TromsøMF Ævar Ingi Jóhannesson 31 January 1995 (age 21) 1 0
KAFW Eiður Guðjohnsen 15 September 1978 (age 37) 84 25
Molde FKFW Kjartan Finnbogason 9 July 1986 (age 29) 4 0
HorsensFW Garðar Gunnlaugsson 25 April 1983 (age 32) 1 0
ÍASorry, but that yardstick isn't what it used to be in my opinion.
We have an imbalanced side and a side which would struggle to make it to top 4 but we don't have a shit squad. Most of our woes is down to management and tactics
I don't want to disagree with you because I think that deep down we agree but "some" is the word, it's not "too many" but due to the system that we use it looks like a lot but it's not.
Edit: For example that counter-attacking formation is solid.
---------Martial--Rooney
-------------Pereira
---Schweiny-Schneidy-Herrera
Shaw---Rojo--Smalling--Darmian
------------De Gea
And if you slot in CBJ and Blind we are still fine, no one is exposed in that formation.
Am I missing something? When did he win a league title?Of the players I mentioned in my original post, only 2 have found their way into your line-up!
Of course they are not and that mostly due
a- bad investment (Fellaini and Mata)
b- LVG inability to understand how EPL football works (Blind/Mcnair as CB, 3-5-2 system, small squad in the EPL?)
c- unlucky signings (Depay)
d- years of underinvestment
e- LVG horrible man management.
Having said that we should have enough talent to compete for 4th place and to beat these Mitland no bodies
I know and that's my problem with your thread, the players you mentioned are good enough as squad players and that's enough.
Who said you can't win with players from smaller clubs? I didn't.
I only said it's no surprise that when you sign players from mediocre teams and put them together you become a mediocre team. It would be a surprise if a bunch of top six players suddenly made a title winning side. Who was moaning about where players are signed from?
The team yesterday was made up of players from mediocre teams. Smalling and Carrick was where the proper pedigree began and ended yesterday. So I'm not surprised the team played like crap. I wouldn't be surprised if some mediocre Bilbao or Southampton team lost yesterday (or dropped silly points to Bournemouth), so why would I be surprised a team of their players lost?
And actually... once again - who cares what happened under Sir Alex? It's irrelevant.
Squad players? As I said, most of them start often therefore are first team players. Furthermore, the amounts we paid for some of them to be squad players - madness - nearly 70m for Fellaini, Depay, Blind and Rojo
No I think he had a point about these two. I doubt Kante, Mahrez etc initially joined the club for the love of the club but with a small unit like Leicester you can see easily how they might have grown into having an affection for the club, the club that took a punt on them. It's like in real life. I used to work for a small broadcaster that I knew nothing about but working there I got really used to all the employees and pretty much knew everyone in every facet of the company. I got attached to the company and felt quite sad when I left for bigger things. Now I'm in a much bigger broadcaster and don't give two shits about the company, just there for my career prospects and money.
As They might not be better players but as you say, their system suits them and on top of that, they are all on form whereas our top players (Rooney, Mata, ADM when he was here) are all playing like pub players. I dont know how much of that is due to them or LVG but either way, the manager is failing to get the best out of these players.
Because the manager is a moron, he wants to force a system on the roster. Blind is a good player to have, Fellaini is shit(I'm biased), Memphis he is young and developing and I would play him as a striker in the 4312 and Rojo I wasn't a fan at Lisbon but he is alright.
If every team won every game they're 'supposed' to, Sky might as well draw the table up in August.Then you're wrong. Honestly, these players are not better than Stoke, Bournemouth & Sunderland players? Really?
Teams that aren't actually good enough will drop points that the fans feel they shouldn't drop. That's always how it's been. Newcastle would be top four every year and Tottenham would have titles if the simply won the games they thought they should over the last 10 years.
van Gaal makes things worse, but they're also sub-par players. His fault is trying to coach them like he's managing Neymar and Muller and other top players. He'd 100% be better off coaching them like Ranieri coaches his players or even Hughes. Simple does it for players that aren't top class.
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Your hate for Mata is clouding your judgement, Mata is CL winner ffs what can be more top level pedigree that that? He is playing poorly and has been an average signing, granted, but that doesn't dilute his previous achievements and the same applies to every other player. And what's this nonsense about players from not-great teams? Vardy and co have torn the league a new one I guess in a previous life they must have played for Barca or Di Stefano's Madrid! The players we have can not be judged sorely on what happened this season as if there was no football prior to this season, the board have made endure a toxic environment beyond their limits and the majority of them are mentally jaded whilst the likes of Smalling have been run to the ground due to poor squad planning by management. This set of circumstances is not one on which we can base conclusive judgments on the abilities of this squad and in saying that I'm not saying some players shouldn't be held accountable for their contributions or lack thereof but that caution has to applied lest we will throw away the baby with the wash water and fall for the hyperbole you're touting like Welbeck having more top team pedigree than Mata!
He has no point, the players of both teams see the same amount of people the name is bigger, Carrington is fancier but that's it. Ranieri tried to build a team and create a good spirit and succeed, while LVG is trying to force his philosophy down his players throats, the team is severily unbalanced and the players convinced themselves that they were shit. It's 100% on LVG.
This is extremely glass half full.