We have too many players who aren't cut out for the highest level

[Speak]

Why do people keep going on about Leicester?

It's ONE season. If they start getting into multiple successive Champions League semi-finals with that team... then the point can actually be made.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

If it's garbage, give me at least your assessment of the players I mentioned.

Here you go. I agree with some, but I think some are a little too soon.

Fellaini (never, ever will be good enough - loan him to AC now) - I agree. He did well last season in spells, but I've never been sold on him. Good at defending set pieces, and doesn't shy away from a battle, but a fairly limited footballer. Not even remotely suited to the double pivot position he's currently playing.

Memphis Depay (yet, but in my opinion unlikely ever to be) - Too soon to write off yet. I want to see what he can do under a less rigid manager, but said manager also needs to give him a kick up the arse and tell him to get a grip.

Blind (never will be - too slow, much too slow) - Disagree. Good squad player to have. Verastile, great ball player. Among the better of the LvG signings.

Young (admire his effort, but before this season during which he's looked better than an awful bunch, most did wonder what he was doing in our team) - Not his biggest fan, but as above, he grafts and he'll play anywhere. Players like him aren't to be scoffed at.

McNair (yet) - I was a big fan last season. He looks an imposter this season. Can't decide. He could do with a loan and a game every week to really prove where he is at.

Darmian (yet) - very good player IMO. He's had games ranging from rock solid to a bit of a mare. First season in English football. I have faith he can be our first choice RB. Was winning plaudits left and right at the start of the season, but should never play on the left.

Valencia (hasn't been for a while) - Agree. He's a limited footballer. Reasonably solid as a back up RB, but I think his time could be up at United. Not versatile enough to be a squad player IMO.

Rojo (hasn't convinced at all) - Was very good at the WC and has has good games at left back. Not convinced with him at centre back. My only concern with him as that he's never available, ever. His injuries always seem to be very long term. He's barely played in 18 months. I think the club needs to call time on him.

Jones (won't ever get there - good as an away supporter though) I think I agree. I really wanted it to work out for him, but he's nowhere near where we expected him to be. I think he's talented and physically he's great when he's fit. But he's rarely fit. Enough's enough.

Januzaj (a real disappointment after one decent season under would you believe it, David fecking Moyes) - I'm not convinced he's got what it takes. Talented no doubt, but missing a bit of grit. He needs to toughen up. I'd like to see him get more game time though, ideally a PL loan who will play him every week, before writing him off.

Lingard (I really can't see it with this guy) - Me neither. Capable of a cool finish now and again, and I can't fault his work rate, but isn't close to the required level.

But I still want to see what a better, more adaptable manager can do with this squad, but I don't think it is as bad as some make out. It still has a few holes, but there's a lot of good players severely under-performing. Lots of players who we know are capable of better, but we have reduced them down to being poor footballers, which I don't think is true for the majority of them.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I'd like to see how a fair few of those players get on under a remotely competant manager.

 

[Jacob]

I don't think the problem lies with the quality of players. O'Shea, Fletcher and the like were cogs in a succesful wheel. Leicester is proof that the quality of players is just one factor out of many. I am sure most of us would agree we have better quality than them.

 

[Speak]

I don't think the problem lies with the quality of players. O'Shea, Fletcher and the like were cogs in a succesful wheel.

And who were they playing alongside/feeding balls to, when the team was a European force?
Of course it's the quality of the players. van Gaal makes it worse, but the first team is below par already.

When Mata is supposedly one of your key players, you aren't going to be a force.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I'd like to see how a fair few of those players get on under a remotely competant manager.

A new manager and a few tweaks to the squad is what's needed. These players are not useless, just lacking confidence and demotivated.

 

[bleedred]

Why do people keep going on about Leicester?

It's ONE season. If they start getting into multiple successive Champions League semi-finals with that team... then the point can actually be made.

Isn't the OP also considering our players not good enough based on the same season?.

 

[Jacob]

And who were they playing alongside, when the team was a European force?

Are you saying they were in the team only because the other players made up for their poor quality?

 

[Jacob]

And who were they playing alongside/feeding balls to, when the team was a European force?
Of course it's the quality of the players. van Gaal makes it worse, but the first team is below par already.

When Mata is supposedly one of your key players, you aren't going to be a force.

Mata was the best midfielder in the League for Chelsea, he didn't turn shit over night. We need to improve on the managerial and tactical front to get more out of our players.

 

[Speak]

Are you saying they were in the team only because the other players made up for their poor quality?

I'm saying that a team full of those players wasn't going to be a European force.
They didn't offer the star quality that a top European team needs. They offered what they offered, and did their part - but let's be honest about it.

 

[Speak]

Mata was the best midfielder in the League for Chelsea, he didn't turn shit over night. We need to improve on the managerial and tactical front to get more out of our players.

No he wasn't. And he was never that good a player.
Even at his best, he wouldn't have found himself in any serious European first team.

In order for this team to become a European force (where semi-finals are to be expected in Europe) the standard of players needs to increase significantly. The manager is another issue entirely. Both need to be improved.

 

[Speak]

Isn't the OP also considering our players not good enough based on the same season?.

I'm not talking about individual parts of Leicester's team. My point is that Leicester only represent a team clicking perfectly for one year (thus far.) They don't represent some amazing, dominant European force. The only way they push on now is to increase the quality of player in their team.

They aren't some example of 'you don't need star players.' Because one season of winning a trophy proves nothing. A truly good side wins multiple trophies and challenges for four or five years.

 

[Cheesy]

I'd like to see how a fair few of those players get on under a remotely competant manager.

Me too. I still hold hope for certain players like Depay and Rojo, while there's definitely some potential in Januzaj. I do think we've got some relative deadweight like Fellaini, and arguably Valencia and Young, who can only really do so much if we're looking to get to the top level again.

 

[JPRouve]

I'm saying that a team full of those players wasn't going to be a European force.
They didn't offer the star quality that a top European team needs. They offered what they offered, and did their part - but let's be honest about it.

But you can see it differently and consider that most of our players are good enough for us but we lack 3 or 4 top class players. In my opinion we lack one top player per line, 1 CB, 1 AM/Winger and 1 striker. Or 2 AM if we put Martial upfront. We have the supporting cast but we lack the big players.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

No he wasn't. And he was never that good a player.
Even at his best, he wouldn't have found himself in any serious European first team.

In order for this team to become a European force (where semi-finals are to be expected in Europe) the standard of players needs to increase significantly. The manager is another issue entirely. Both need to be improved.

I think next seasons priority will yet again getting in the top 4. Then we can worry about knocking Barca and Co off their perches. LvG has messed up the progress of our club big style. We are almost back to square one. New manager who knows his tactics and how to motivate the players we have will be a good start.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

But you can see it differently and consider that most of our players are good enough for us but we lack 3 or 4 top class players. In my opinion we lack one top player per line, 1 CB, 1 AM/Winger and 1 striker. Or 2 AM if we put Martial upfront. We have the supporting cast but we lack the big players.

As I said before he bought a lot of good supporting players, but failed big style to get the big hitters to lift us to the next level. Hopefully we can get a manager who will attract those. LvG will scare them off.

 

[JPRouve]

As I said before he bought a lot of good supporting players, but failed big style to get the big hitters to lift us to the next level. Hopefully we can get a manager who will attract those. LvG will scare them off.

The big or impact players aren't necessarily big names and that's our mistake we tried to bring big names, when we should have concentrated on the right players.

 

[Speak]

But you can see it differently and consider that most of our players are good enough for us but we lack 3 or 4 top class players. In my opinion we lack one top player per line, 1 CB, 1 AM/Winger and 1 striker. Or 2 AM if we put Martial upfront. We have the supporting cast but we lack the big players.

True.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

The big or impact players aren't necessarily big names and that's our mistake we tried to bring big names, when we should have concentrated on the right players.

You're probably right, so either we need to scout better and know exactly what is needed or we get a manager who the big hitters will fall over themselves to play for. I just hope we don't waste our time with big names wanting big new contracts at their present clubs.

 

[Skills]

You don't need a squad full of players of the highest level to get top 4. See Spurs and Leicester.

 

[The red panther]

It is not a quality issue, we have better quality players than Leicester, even Tottenham. It is a mental thing, our players are getting mismanaged, we are using players wrong, we are playing wrong, we are probabbly also training wrong, our performances and results suffer and players start to lose believe and confidence in themselves. Everything starts with the manager, not the players. Sure thing we lack quality to compete with the absolute top and we lack some serious depth to cope with the injurries we have now and we still have some fair amount of deadwood in the squad to clean out. But for god sake these players are more than good enough to get into the top 4 and play far better then we have been doing this season.

Ferguson had us winning league titles year in year out with far less quality players. But they worked together as team, they had belief, self confidence, they worked hard on the pitch and they could win against anybody because of that. It all starts and ends with a good manager and LVG just doesn't fit for our club, in this league at this time, so he needs to go. The minute he walks, I bet the team will start playing better.

 

[Robbie Boy]

You don't need a squad full of players of the highest level to get top 4. See Spurs and Leicester.

Nobody said that you do

 

[Smores]

Yeah let's just get rid of all our squad players and youth who haven't instantly hit the ground running.

Lets just sign the best players from every league and then play them every game. Glad we solved that one.

 

[Dans]

Fellaini - Keep, different player to most of our midfielders useful option (despite me not liking him)
Memphis Depay - Keep, you don't bin a young player only 1 season in.
Blind - Useful but imo a squad player
Young - One of the few players who will run his ass off for the team. Keep.
McNair - Youth player needs a loan imo
Darmian - Keep see Memphis
Valencia - One of the few i'd sell, should never have been converted into a RB.
Rojo - Keep, has shown the right spirit useful backup
Jones - Tricky one, reminds me of Anderson in that injuries will always get in the way of his progress. I'd keep but ensure he's not rushed back, one last season.
Januzaj - Keep, give a run out in the first team and see where his development is at. Then evaluate.
Lingard - Useful squad player but should not be a starter for us atm. Doesn't contribute enough in general play but does have goals in him.

So mostly squad players you are saying, right?

 

[RedSky]

So mostly squad players you are saying, right?

Memphis and Darmian will probably end up being first team regulars next season. The rest will be squad players which is fine given that we actually lack depth. But it's not as though they're not cut out for the highest levels, its just that they're doing the job that they were bought for.

 

[Dans]

But my point is they are doing much more - they play often as first teamers and many of them shouldn't be first team United players the way they have played so far this season.

I think we should be comparing our club and players with Bayern, Barca, Real, etc etc Clearly we cannot though right now can we? We have bought in a lot of squad players for first team player money.

 

[GlastonSpur]

It is not a quality issue, we have better quality players than Leicester, even Tottenham. ....

I honestly don't think that's true. I was thinking the other day as to which United players would be chosen in a Spurs starting XI - Martial was the only clear-cut choice, to replace Son

De Gea over Lloris is marginal - both are top class keepers. Smalling would not displace Alderweireld - and nor would he replace Vertonghen since the latter is left footed and therefore a natural fit for a left-sided CB.

Perhaps Shaw might replace Rose, but again it's marginal since Rose has been excellent this season and Shaw has not yet - due to injury - really had the chance yet to really show much at the higher level. And I'd take Walker or Trippier over Darmien.

Dier, Alli and Dembele are all better than any current United alternative IMO. Kane takes it over Rooney, and I don't see who would replace Eriksen.

All in all I tend to agree with those United fans who think that you are in need of replacing (or at least relegating to squad cover/rotational status) a quite large number of players - and that number will become even larger if De Gea leaves this summer.

On this last point - what's the current thinking on whether he'll again agitate for a move?

 

[adexkola]

Yeah let's just get rid of all our squad players and youth who haven't instantly hit the ground running.

Lets just sign the best players from every league and then play them every game. Glad we solved that one.

so true.

 

[Speak]

It is not a quality issue, we have better quality players than Leicester, even Tottenham. It is a mental thing, our players are getting mismanaged, we are using players wrong, we are playing wrong, we are probabbly also training wrong, our performances and results suffer and players start to lose believe and confidence in themselves. Everything starts with the manager, not the players. Sure thing we lack quality to compete with the absolute top and we lack some serious depth to cope with the injurries we have now and we still have some fair amount of deadwood in the squad to clean out. But for god sake these players are more than good enough to get into the top 4 and play far better then we have been doing this season.

Ferguson had us winning league titles year in year out with far less quality players. But they worked together as team, they had belief, self confidence, they worked hard on the pitch and they could win against anybody because of that. It all starts and ends with a good manager and LVG just doesn't fit for our club, in this league at this time, so he needs to go. The minute he walks, I bet the team will start playing better.

I don't see how.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

I honestly don't think that's true. I was thinking the other day as to which United players would be chosen in a Spurs starting XI - Martial was the only clear-cut choice, to replace Son

De Gea over Lloris is marginal - both are top class keepers. Smalling would not displace Alderweireld - and nor would he replace Vertonghen since the latter is left footed and therefore a natural fit for a left-sided CB.

Perhaps Shaw might replace Rose, but again it's marginal since Rose has been excellent this season and Shaw has not yet - due to injury - really had the chance yet to really show much at the higher level. And I'd take Walker or Trippier over Darmien.

Dier, Alli and Dembele are all better than any current United alternative IMO. Kane takes it over Rooney, and I don't see who would replace Eriksen.

All in all I tend to agree with those United fans who think that you are in need of replacing (or at least relegating to squad cover/rotational status) a quite large number of players - and that number will become even larger if De Gea leaves this summer.

On this last point - what's the current thinking on whether he'll again agitate for a move?

Agree with quite a bit of this, But sorry Shaw is light years ahead of Rose. Rose and Walker are your 2 weak points IMO.

 

[The red panther]

I honestly don't think that's true. I was thinking the other day as to which United players would be chosen in a Spurs starting XI - Martial was the only clear-cut choice, to replace Son

De Gea over Lloris is marginal - both are top class keepers. Smalling would not displace Alderweireld - and nor would he replace Vertonghen since the latter is left footed and therefore a natural fit for a left-sided CB.

Perhaps Shaw might replace Rose, but again it's marginal since Rose has been excellent this season and Shaw has not yet - due to injury - really had the chance yet to really show much at the higher level. And I'd take Walker or Trippier over Darmien.

Dier, Alli and Dembele are all better than any current United alternative IMO. Kane takes it over Rooney, and I don't see who would replace Eriksen.

All in all I tend to agree with those United fans who think that you are in need of replacing (or at least relegating to squad cover/rotational status) a quite large number of players - and that number will become even larger if De Gea leaves this summer.

On this last point - what's the current thinking on whether he'll again agitate for a move?

I don't agree with your evaluation of our players because you are comparing players that are inform and playing for a manager getting the maximum out of them with players who are out of form and being mismanaged.

Morgan Schneiderlin for example is a shadow of the player he was last year. The only difference is that he is being managed by a different coach and playing in a different team formation. But he remains the same player with the same qualities that rated him amongst the best midfielders of last year, he just isn't playing up to those qualities. The same can be said for most of our players in the team.

When I would do the excersise of which spurs players would be a clear upgrade to the United team, dismissing the notion about form and the influence a good manager would have, I'd be down to this list:
-Kane
-Alli

These players would be indifferent (not much of an upgrade nor downgrade):
-Eriksen
-Chadli
-Dembele
-Alderweireld
-Verthongen

The rest of the players I'd consider downgrades to what we currently have

Players of United I think would walk into the spurs team when they are in form(be a clear upgrade):
-Martial
-Shaw
-De Gea
-Smalling
-Darmian
-Memphis
-Schneiderlin

Players I think that could do a similar job to what you have in the spurs team:
-Herrera
-Rojo
-Young
-Mata
-Fellaini
-Schweinsteiger/Carrcik

But ofcourse not on current form, on paper. I think a manager like Pochetino for example would bring much more out of these players than LVG has.

 

[montpelier]

What's getting me atm is... we can all rehash the same weaknesses about the same players, these fall into obvious areas & ultimately we have weaknesses in all areas & attributes (pace, size, workrate) but apart from DDG & Martial none of them have enough particular strengths to still be a big asset & make up for some of the specific deficiencies of others.

Don't know if I'm making much sense here, but half decent teams are stronger than the individual parts, we aren't, we are worse. Our weaknesses seem to get magnified rather than covered up. With the exception of DDG that is probably, this season with Romero in goal isn't worth thinking about unless you like the bottom half of the League. How we are still vaguely contending for top 4 is a miracle.

 

[Dans]

I don't agree with your evaluation of our players because you are comparing players that are inform and playing for a manager getting the maximum out of them with players who are out of form and being mismanaged.

Morgan Schneiderlin for example is a shadow of the player he was last year. The only difference is that he is being managed by a different coach and playing in a different team formation. But he remains the same player with the same qualities that rated him amongst the best midfielders of last year, he just isn't playing up to those qualities. The same can be said for most of our players in the team.

When I would do the excersise of which spurs players would be a clear upgrade to the United team, dismissing the notion about form and the influence a good manager would have, I'd be down to this list:
-Kane
-Alli

These players would be indifferent (not much of an upgrade nor downgrade):
-Eriksen
-Chadli
-Dembele
-Alderweireld
-Verthongen

The rest of the players I'd consider downgrades to what we currently have

Players of United I think would walk into the spurs team when they are in form(be a clear upgrade):
-Martial
-Shaw
-De Gea
-Smalling
-Darmian
-Memphis
-Schneiderlin

Players I think that could do a similar job to what you have in the spurs team:
-Herrera
-Rojo
-Young
-Mata
-Fellaini
-Schweinsteiger/Carrcik

But ofcourse not on current form, on paper. I think a manager like Pochetino for example would bring much more out of these players than LVG has.

You are having a laugh? He's never shown any form in England. Unless we've already seen it.

 

[Drifter]

Spurs and Leicester have shown with a manager who knows what he's doing,team spirit,hard work and what looks like a good scouting system you can achieve a lot in the PL.

 

[The red panther]

I honestly don't think that's true. I was thinking the other day as to which United players would be chosen in a Spurs starting XI - Martial was the only clear-cut choice, to replace Son

De Gea over Lloris is marginal - both are top class keepers. Smalling would not displace Alderweireld - and nor would he replace Vertonghen since the latter is left footed and therefore a natural fit for a left-sided CB.

Perhaps Shaw might replace Rose, but again it's marginal since Rose has been excellent this season and Shaw has not yet - due to injury - really had the chance yet to really show much at the higher level. And I'd take Walker or Trippier over Darmien.

Dier, Alli and Dembele are all better than any current United alternative IMO. Kane takes it over Rooney, and I don't see who would replace Eriksen.

All in all I tend to agree with those United fans who think that you are in need of replacing (or at least relegating to squad cover/rotational status) a quite large number of players - and that number will become even larger if De Gea leaves this summer.

On this last point - what's the current thinking on whether he'll again agitate for a move?

You are having a laugh? He's never shown any form in England. Unless we've already seen it.

That is 100% true

But he has showed plenty of quality at PSV and for the dutch national squad. So much in fact he could have gone to PSG instead of United (they were gutted at the time they missed out on him). He also could have gone to Tottenham the year before but he snubbed them because he wanted to move to a bigger club.

So he is a prime example of what I'am talking about, quality player with absolutley no form at all. If he will ever get into form under LVG we will need to see, but I have no doubt under another manager at another team he'd playing brilliant football.

 

[itso 7]

Once again this common misconception that you need 22 superstars to win the league and champions league, it's really not true! While I agree with the sentiment that players like lingard probably aren't good enough to start for us there absolutely no reason why he can't be a solid squad player for us. Form is another massive thing that Utd fans have forgotten about and right now every player has a potential to show 2-3 levels above where they are in this current system. Spurs and Leicester are the exact evidence for this, they have good players but not great players... Put them in a system where they all understand their jobs and have the proper motivation to play and they flourish.

LVG has sucked the life out of a lot of our players, e.g, Herrera, Mata, Rooney not to mention Di Maria, so for that reason I just don't see how we can fully judge the players yet. Memphis is another example of a player that I think would excel in a quick counter attacking system like at PSV, but with his confidence at an all time low people have fully written him off already which seems premature to me.

The squad overhaul is not complete but we don't need many new players. New CB to partner Smalling, a young CM to give us some legs and greater passing range and a Striker/wide forward that is top class and knows how to find the net. I'm willing to bet that of we put in a better manager I.e. Mourinho and then purchase 3 top class players in those positions we will win the league especially once our young players, shaw, Memphis martial all develop further.

This, we have to be careful lest we throw out the baby with the bath water again and appreciate, also, the extent of the injury crisis that has ravaged us this term - we have basically lost all four of our senior fullbacks and two senior CBs before considering players that seem lost mentally like Herrera, Schneiderlin, McNair etc. When we bring in a new manager we shouldn't give him the carte blanche to gut the squad like we did with Van Gaal. The other thing is we have to accept that it's likely to be a long haul and thus should adjust our expectations until we at least have the basics laid down; a solid defence, a workable style and a few match winners at both ends of the pitch. I mean we have to create a side that can dispatch the bottom half teams with easd before thinking about a title fight because the only way you can establish yourself in CL places is by comfortably beating teams outside the top ten and a couple of wins against the top half teams where you can. The pressure of expectations is probably one of the reasons we are looking for quick fixes instead of playing the long game.

 

[Moriarty]

Memphis and Darmian will probably end up being first team regulars next season. The rest will be squad players which is fine given that we actually lack depth. But it's not as though they're not cut out for the highest levels, its just that they're doing the job that they were bought for.

I've got a feeling that Memphis might be on his way out in the summer. Depends if Van Gaal stays or not but if Jose arrives, I can't see Memphis being a part of his plans. He's just not a very good fit.

 

[The red panther]

I don't see how.

That is because you dont see past form and managerial impact. If you would have said at begin of season spurs would have a much better squad than us, you would have been ridiculed by most on here saying how high quality our signings have been and that spurs signed some duds. But now these spurs players are in form and united is having a nightmare of a season and suddenly mason and lamela is better quality than schneiderlin and memphis. Sorry but i dont buy that.

The difference between spurs and us is a testament to the great work of pochetino versus the failure of LVG not because of massive difference in player quality.

 

[VeevaVee]

If we fill the remaining holes with very good, top tier players we will have a nice team. It's just getting them that's been the issue.

 

[itso 7]

That is because you dont see past form and managerial impact. If you would have said at begin of season spurs would have a much better squad than us, you would have been ridiculed by most on here saying how high quality our signings have been and that spurs signed some duds. But now these spurs players are in form and united is having a nightmare of a season and suddenly mason and lamela is better quality than schneiderlin and memphis. Sorry but i dont buy that.

The difference between spurs and us is a testament to the great work of pochetino versus the failure of LVG not because of massive difference in player quality.

Yeah, that and the injuries we have endured plus the fact that our attack is way short of the quality and depth needed. Our attack has basically pulled us down and that became apparent after injuries began to mount in defense. Next season if we sign the players we need and correctly use the ones we already have without overloading them with meaningless data we will definitely see a different and better side.