We have too many players who aren't cut out for the highest level

I personally dont think these lads are bad at all individually.. Its generally believe in many place Young is one of the most limited players in the team but for some reason he tends to outperform the higher quality players in the team.
This team has no battlers, its seems they all rely on things falling into place or bust. People frown at players with this quality because most of them tend to have a hint of unpredictable aggression but its their edge and makes them the players that dont get overrun. Looking at this squad you wonder where the fight is going to come from. It all starts in the dressing room, they are all too busy being friends than competing for a starting place. Putting it politely Mata is competing against Pereira who is intact a trainee, how prepared is he going to be for matchday or should we also talk about the brilliant McNair he'll taking on in prep for a game.
I personally believe a player like Memphis would have adjusted better to the EPL coming up against a Phil Neville in training than Darmian( newbie) or Varela( a trainee). Its noticeable after each game the manager keeps going on about not replicating what they showed in training, how hard is it to see the gulf in quality from playing against reserves to seasoned first teamers playing for better contracts.
 
Speak said:
I don't take much stock in Chelsea's Champions League win. Maybe others do - and that's great for them, but I don't.
Cups without league titles don't prove anything to me. I also don't rate Liverpool's Istanbul team. It's cup football.

I already have my opinions on Mata anyway. I think he's completely unsuited to a top team.

And I can't be bothered to go on about Leicester. They haven't won anything yet, and it's simply a year of overachieving. They'd need better players to maintain top two.
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I think Mata would fit in very well and be very effective at Barca.
 
devilish said:
We ended up in this sad situation because of such attitude. Injury prone players are useless, players who are way past their peak wont get better in time and players who are not good enough are simply not good enough
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Yes I agree with that, but you have to agree we are playing much worse than we actually are
 
anant said:
Yes I agree with that, but you have to agree we are playing much worse than we actually are
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of course I do.

A decent manager can easily compete for the 4th place with this side. SAF will probably compete for the title as long as the squad is fit.

The final phrase is the key to everything. LVG's obsession in insisting on a small squad is pure madness especially when you consider how physical and how many games the EPL has + the amount of injury prone players we have. Its like a general insisting that his troops wear light clothes while trying to invade Russia. That wont end well
 
devilish said:
of course I do.

A decent manager can easily compete for the 4th place with this side. SAF will probably compete for the title as long as the squad is fit.

The final phrase is the key to everything. LVG's obsession in insisting on a small squad is pure madness especially when you consider how physical and how many games the EPL has + the amount of injury prone players we have. Its like a general insisting that his troops wear light clothes while trying to invade Russia. That wont end well
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In terms of individual talent, we are definitely not the best but I think in top 3 in league.
Rather I would have blamed the players quality had our record vs good teams been poor and bad teams good, like Moyes' case.
But if we are having the best record against top 6, that points are players are good enough to beat anyone. Additionally, dropping 16 points in 9 games vs bottom 6 points inability to break down weaker sides which points to tactics of inviting opposition to play and take risks, which rarely happens in England
 
I am a little surprised so many feel we are top 3 or 4 in terms of "perceived" individual talent.

I think we are very average and could be as bad as top 10 only.
 
anant said:
In terms of individual talent, we are definitely not the best but I think in top 3 in league.
Rather I would have blamed the players quality had our record vs good teams been poor and bad teams good, like Moyes' case.
But if we are having the best record against top 6, that points are players are good enough to beat anyone. Additionally, dropping 16 points in 9 games vs bottom 6 points inability to break down weaker sides which points to tactics of inviting opposition to play and take risks, which rarely happens in England
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I think we overrate our players alot. We only have 1 WC player in the team (ie DDG).

Top 4-5 is more appropriate
 
Dans said:
I am a little surprised so many feel we are top 3 or 4 in terms of "perceived" individual talent.

I think we are very average and could be as bad as top 10 only.
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Watching us last night, it kind of hit me as to how average this squad is. The side we had on the field were essentially mid-table quality, but even with a fully strengthened side...we aren't much better. Shaw and De Gea are probably the only two players who were missing that I'd say would have massively boosted their position.
 
Dans said:
I am a little surprised so many feel we are top 3 or 4 in terms of "perceived" individual talent.

I think we are very average and could be as bad as top 10 only.
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Had we beat Norwich and Sunderland, both teams we have the players on paper to defeat, we'd be joint fourth with City.

Top four should not be beyond the wit of Van Gaal. I'd argue we should have won those games, and the game we lost at Swansea and drew at Newcastle. That would make us joint top on 53 points. We are talking about the teams in 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th.

Nobody is pretending that we should be able to smash Bayern Munich. We're just baffled that our manager can't get points against relegation fodder, and comfortably dispatch an average looking European team.

Had we lost to Dortmund yesterday the reaction would have been rightly different. We lost to a team that is pretty much in pre-season, no game for 10 weeks, and got beat 9-1 on aggregate to Napoli in the Champions League qualifiers.
 
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Speak said:
The manager is underachieving. We all know this. You and others feel he's underachieving hugely in the league, and I think it's only slightly.

Regardless, the players aren't good enough. And van Gaal should have realised that by now and stopped trying to pretend he has Neymar and Robben in his team. Martinez didn't learn, and got his team relegated, when he should have been playing Allardyce-ball. I agree on that, for sure.

Sir Alex is irrelevant, really. That chapter's over.

As for Leicester: They're overachieving and it's clicking perfectly. it happens. But not everyone can overachieve at the same time.
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Sir Alex will never be irrelevant in a United context nor will Busby.They are the benchmark.
Leicester are overachieving, they are doing so because their players are well managed and motivated.Ours are not.
 
The Brown Bull said:
Sir Alex will never be irrelevant in a United context nor will Busby.They are the benchmark.
Leicester are overachieving, they are doing so because their players are well managed and motivated.Ours are not.
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What Sir Alex managed to do with certain players really isn't of relevance to today's Manchester United, though. What he did as a manager for more than 20 years can't be matched or replicated, and the club changed hugely overnight, as soon as he left. People mentioning Sir Alex winning with 'weaker squads' etc. need to move on from it.

Personally, I don't want United to have to overachieve. I'd rather the club just had a squad of extremely talented players who should be top anyway, and doesn't need to overachieve or play three places above their level in order to win league titles and cups.

The fact that this United squad would probably be significantly overachieving (in my opinion, at least) by winning the league and getting to the semis of the Champions League is sad. The club should have a squad that literally can't overachieve.
 
De Gea
RB
Smalling
CB
Shaw
CM
CM
RW
10
Martial
ST

I hope Herrera and Schneiderlin perform better in a Mourinho system and Darmian gets better in his second season as otherwise we have too many positions to fix this summer.

Rooney
Mata
Lingard
Depay
Fellaini
Carrick
Valencia
Jones

These players aren't good enough
 
Some people think we're third-best in terms of material?

Chelsea, City, Arsenal and Spurs are all comfortably better. After that, maybe it's us.
 
I think we have a good squad, but there are key components missing. Midfield is a problem. Carrick and schweinsteiger are aging, and schneiderlin hasn't been unable to step up.
Fellaini isn't good enough, and Herrera doesn't know where he's supposed to be playing. When fit, we have decent fullbacks. Central defence is good I think, but not the best.
we could do with a fast skillful winger, and we definitely need a lethal assasin upfront. But we're not in a a terrible situation.
 
Jev said:
Some people think we're third-best in terms of material?

Chelsea, City, Arsenal and Spurs are all comfortably better. After that, maybe it's us.
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Agreed (disagree that Tottenham are 'comfortably' better, but still think they're better footballers). Which is why I believe van Gaal's team are currently underachieving slightly, but not hugely. Fourth or fifth best squad/team, currently sitting in fifth.

And I find people even mentioning Leicester funny. 'Look at Leicester. Why can't van Gaal do what they're doing?'

He shouldn't need to overachieve by three or more places.
Why should United even need to finish higher than clubs with better squads/teams? Surely the club should be first or second in terms of player quality?
 
devilish said:
I think we overrate our players alot. We only have 1 WC player in the team (ie DDG).

Top 4-5 is more appropriate
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Personally I rate a side on how they perform versus the big teams.
Apart from Arsenal 3-0, we haven't exactly been outplayed. We had an unlucky loss vs Chelsea last season, and possibly a just fair enough 1-0 loss to City, and that too greatly due to Smalling's stupidity, last year. If a side can match shoulder to shoulder against what we perceive to be England's best sides, I just feel that our side can't be blamed on basis of lack of talent.
Its not exactly a one off win or lucky wins we had, but they were extremely well deserved.

The biggest concern that we have are positions in League and UCL exit- well I am pretty sure had we not dropped 16 points in 9 games versus bottom 6, we wouldn't be raising doubts on player quality.
Although I respect your opinion regarding our tendency to overrate players, which I feel the are, but that explanation IMHO is valid if we beat bottom 12 and lose to top 7 and say we are 4th best.
What we lack is not quality, I feel, but players not being motivated enough to play their best. Its the lack of passion, determination and drive I am more concerned of rather than the quality
 
anant said:
Personally I rate a side on how they perform versus the big teams.
Apart from Arsenal 3-0, we haven't exactly been outplayed. We had an unlucky loss vs Chelsea last season, and possibly a just fair enough 1-0 loss to City, and that too greatly due to Smalling's stupidity, last year. If a side can match shoulder to shoulder against what we perceive to be England's best sides, I just feel that our side can't be blamed on basis of lack of talent.
Its not exactly a one off win or lucky wins we had, but they were extremely well deserved.

The biggest concern that we have are positions in League and UCL exit- well I am pretty sure had we not dropped 16 points in 9 games versus bottom 6, we wouldn't be raising doubts on player quality.
Although I respect your opinion regarding our tendency to overrate players, which I feel the are, but that explanation IMHO is valid if we beat bottom 12 and lose to top 7 and say we are 4th best.
What we lack is not quality, I feel, but players not being motivated enough to play their best. Its the lack of passion, determination and drive I am more concerned of rather than the quality
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Can I ask why? Surely it makes more sense to rate a team based on how they play against everyone, considering playing teams of differing levels requires different skills. You get to find out how well-rounded a team is by how they play against weaker and stronger sides (and everything in between) surely?

You seem to feel it is lack of passion that leads to them not beating weaker sides. Whereas it could actually be just as easily explained as the players not having the required quality to break down sides that sit behind the ball.
 
Speak said:
Can I ask why? Surely it makes more sense to rate a team based on how they play against everyone, considering playing teams of differing levels requires different skills. You get to find out how well-rounded a team is by how they play against weaker and stronger sides (and everything in between) surely?

You seem to feel it is lack of passion that leads to them not beating weaker sides. Whereas it could actually be just as easily explained as the players not having the required quality to break down sides that sit behind the ball.
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Sure, what you are saying is pretty correct. But my point is, quality can't be termed bad if you can match the so called bigger teams shoulder to shoulder.
Surely there have been instances where a club gets lucky or catches a good team not playing well or some kinds of mind games, but I don't think that is true over multiple games.
Look at Chelsea last season- They had the most quality players who were motivated enough. Against the big sides quality matters more than anything else. And their record vs top sides read 1 defeat and many wins.
I believe, and I accept I may be wrong in this case, that its quality of players that win games vs big sides and tactics vs small sides. I know, you may counter this by saying that all I am doing is blaming manager for everything bad and crediting players for everything good. But look at it this way. You are worlds greatest manager, get tactics spot on everytime. Every Pundit, every person who knows about football says thats the best way to beat the particular big side. But you lose. The reason is quality. And no matter how perfect other factor may be, quality is essential to beat big sides consistently. That is obviously in addition to tactics being right.
To beat small sides, you need to devise ways to get them to play positive. It is here where even if your players are giving just 70% you have a chance to win if your tactics are right. I don't believe that the players are inconsistent that they manage to beat big sides exclusively, They may be demotivated,that can be a reason making them give only 30% of what they have. But again, IMHO, doesn't answer the fact that quality is absent
 
Old Trafford is becoming a graveyard for decent players.

I'd rather judge them on how they perform under a new manager, or at a different club.

It can't be coincidence that players who move on, often do pretty well. Basically, players are good when they come to us, and good when they go. In between they're pretty crap.

The current situation is, imo, not a good one in which to assess a player.
 
Attila said:
De Gea
RB
Smalling
CB
Shaw
CM
CM
RW
10
Martial
ST

I hope Herrera and Schneiderlin perform better in a Mourinho system and Darmian gets better in his second season as otherwise we have too many positions to fix this summer.

Rooney
Mata
Lingard
Depay
Fellaini
Carrick
Valencia
Jones

These players aren't good enough
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Totally agree!
 
Livvie said:
Old Trafford is becoming a graveyard for decent players.

I'd rather judge them on how they perform under a new manager, or at a different club.

It can't be coincidence that players who move on, often do pretty well. Basically, players are good when they come to us, and good when they go. In between they're pretty crap.

The current situation is, imo, not a good one in which to assess a player.
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Really? Apart from the obvious tier1 (Ronaldo, Di Maria, Beckham, etc) - not sure who...
 
Well Hernandez for a start.

And where would we be without Mata and Rooney this year??
 
Christ, we have such a shit team. Outside of Martial, no one else really makes me think they've got what it takes to put us back on top.
 
Martial
DDG
Shaw

Are definites.

Smelling

Probably.

The rest can all go. Every single one of them.
 
Livvie said:
Old Trafford is becoming a graveyard for decent players.

I'd rather judge them on how they perform under a new manager, or at a different club.

It can't be coincidence that players who move on, often do pretty well. Basically, players are good when they come to us, and good when they go. In between they're pretty crap.

The current situation is, imo, not a good one in which to assess a player.
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But "decent" players shouldn't be at United in the first place.

We need quality. We simply do not have it whatsoever.

3 quality players. 2 are under 20 years old.
 
CBJ looks like he could be a good player - what he's shown at 18 in this situation I think is nothing short of phenomenal. Shame he's a left back.
 
Livvie said:
Old Trafford is becoming a graveyard for decent players.

I'd rather judge them on how they perform under a new manager, or at a different club.

It can't be coincidence that players who move on, often do pretty well. Basically, players are good when they come to us, and good when they go. In between they're pretty crap.

The current situation is, imo, not a good one in which to assess a player.
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True, especially looking at Di Maria, Hernandez & Kagawa on the one hand and Schneiderlin, Mata & Darmian on the other.
 
Even just watching the Tottenham highlights - they have players all over the pitch with much better athleticism, footwork and agility.

Meanwhile this United squad has heavy-footed, flat-footed players all over the pitch, who couldn't turn on a sixpence with a football unmarked, let alone under pressure.

Even two of the quickest players in the squad (Valencia, Memphis) aren't nimble. Which is why a lot of the football is so slow and laborious. The ball never seems to get cleared out of the players feet quickly. So few players who can receive a ball, turn on it quickly with light, quick feet, and move it forward.
 
Top players
De Gea
Smalling
Shaw
Martial

Good back-up players
Romero
Valdes
Rojo
Blind
Schweinsteiger
Carrick
Herrera
Young
Lingard?

One more season to impress
Darmian
Schneiderlin
Memphis

Possible future stars
Borthwick-Jackson
Pereira
Januzaj
Wilson

Players that can leave
Valencia
Jones
McNair
Powell
Fellaini
Mata
Rooney
Keane
 
Silverman said:
Top players
De Gea
Smalling
Shaw
Martial

Good back-up players
Romero
Valdes
Rojo
Blind
Schweinsteiger
Carrick
Herrera
Young
Lingard?

One more season to impress
Darmian
Schneiderlin
Memphis

Possible future stars
Borthwick-Jackson
Pereira
Januzaj
Wilson

Players that can leave
Valencia
Jones
McNair
Powell
Fellaini
Mata
Rooney
Keane
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Agree 100%

It's painful to see United sides with a spine of Fellaini, Rooney and Mata: A combination of never had it, lost it and I have a sexy beard. "
 
So, it's been absolutely proven tonight.

We have one elite player (who made a massive feck up tonight) and a bunch of very average ones.
 
Dans said:
So, it's been absolutely proven tonight.

We have one elite player (who made a massive feck up tonight) and a bunch of very average ones.
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And you don't think any of them could flourish under a new manager?
 
I think (as others have said) it's very hard to know the full extent when such basics are seemingly missing. Training and man management is definitely part of it.
 
Livvie said:
And you don't think any of them could flourish under a new manager?
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Quite honestly, no.

I'd be very surprised. I hold some hope for Martial, Rashford, perhaps Smalling, but the rest I really have no faith in at all.
 
None of them are starters for their countries. The one who is plays for Ecuador. Says it all.
 
The problem with our team isn't the personnel alone, we just don't have heart.

Look at what westham and Leicester did with a bunch of average players and a few good ones.

Most players in our team should walk into either of those two teams.
 
Ok, so Fellaini and Blind start, but that's misleading ;)
 
Ok, I missed out Smalling too. He has regressed this year though.
 
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