We are an awfully coached team

[NZT-One]

I think I've addressed most of this in my reply to @bond19821982.

At the end of the day players have a ceiling and a level. Fred could spend every spare hour of his time doing keep ball with Carrick at Carrington and he'd never be good enough.

Even Klopp couldn't turn Klavan and Karius into top players. At the end of the day you can only do what you can with what you've got. Undoubtedly what we've got is partly down to Ole. I would just caution you to not think Ole going will change everything.

I don't think you did. I have no problems to confirm that not every player can be formed to be a great player. But that isn't our issue. Fergies teams didn't just consist of top players, Pep made and makes use of Delph or Zinchenko. The issue is, if you know, some of your players don't cope well in certain situations then adjust your system so they don't end up in these situations as often.

FFS it is exactly the same thing that we are seeing our opponents do against us: they know we are quite good at countering but subsceptible to them as well so they set up deep where our weaknesses against low blocks (how big they might be and no matter if this is a problem for other teams as well) can be exploited while countering with fast and powerful dribblers. We saw it against Wolves, we saw it against Newcastle, we saw it today as well, even though Aston Villa even went the extra mile to put pressure on us too.

These are game plans that are prepared. If we know that McFred are needed to have a chance in a midfield battle but they are weak progressing the ball then make sure they have easy passing options all the time.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Lots forget where we were and how we felt before Ole became manager and built this team

2nd place with 80 points? Followed by a period where the manager felt he wasn't backed and went into self-sabotage mode.

I get that Ole took over in the middle of a season that started disastrously, but the way some posters talk about it, you would think he brought us up from the Championship.

 

[pratyush_utd]

Apart from 2nd half against Leeds and 2nd half against Newcastle, we have been quite poor this season. I know some don't like it but huge part of the blame will always go to manager.

If we are not careful in next few weeks we would be out of CL and probably a bit too far in PL as well. We have some huge games coming up and with the form we are in, it doesn't full me with any confidence. This kind of situation can actually show if Ole has it or not.

 

[DomM]

it would certainly appear we are not a well functioning team with a particular style of play, despite having some of the best players in the league.
I certainly think the centre of midfield is a problem, with Fred and Mctominay in midfield we struggle to control games, I would say we are a counter attacking team but too easy to defend against.
We certainly need two proper midfielders who can dictate play, we don't get that with McFred.
But still, you would expect more and better team understanding of how to play together, sometimes it looks as if our players don't even know one another.

 

[Zlatan 7]

The horror if we conceded 3 and drew against a newly promoted team. I guess not every game is a given. Who’d have thought

 

[Dec9003]

The horror if we conceded 3 and drew against a newly promoted team. I guess not every game is a given. Who’d have thought

They looked far better than we did, made more chances, actually scored goals and looked entertaining. It was a fantastic match against two very good sides, we looked shocking compared to both.

 

[lex talionis]

On any given match day Ole can put together an outstanding game plan, but questions about Ole going forward are not out of order.

My overriding complaint with United is that we hold no one accountable until the damage is overwhelming. This goes for executive management, coaching management and players. Just to take one example, Fred puts on one horror show after another and yet he Ole still has faith in him.

When will Ole hold his underperforming players accounttable?

 

[elnorte]

The horror if we conceded 3 and drew against a newly promoted team. I guess not every game is a given. Who’d have thought

But so what? Regardless of Liverpool's result tonight or whether it had been United in their position, how are you with where the club are at present?

 

[NZT-One]

On any given match day Ole can put together an outstanding game plan, but questions about Ole going forward are not out of order.

My overriding complaint with United is that we hold no one accountable until the damage is overwhelming. This goes for executive management, coaching management and players. Just to take one example, Fred puts on one horror show after another and yet he Ole still has faith in him.

When will Ole hold his underperforming players accounttable?

I think he does to a normal extent. Just look at Lingard 1st half last year or Martial also last year. They got chances but at some point, they were severely down the pecking order. I think, your opinion is flawed because Fred is not doing as bad as people make out he is. He isn't an alltime great but he seemingly is doing the job he is asked to do. And apart from that he one of the few players who has so much workrate that he is able to compensate the lack of that for some other players. Granted, he has been somewhat out of form for a while now but not as severely as people depict it to be. Put Matic or Donny in against Villas press today and Matic is eaten alive, probably finding himself next to the goalkeeper most of the time to avoid the pressure. Donny is somewhat of an unknown entity in this sort of match - he certainly has the techical tools to deal with pressure, but does he have the intensity as well?

 

[Zlatan 7]

But so what? Regardless of Liverpool's result tonight or whether it had been United in their position, how are you with where the club are at present?

Happiest I’ve been since Ferguson left

 

[elnorte]

Happiest I’ve been since Ferguson left

Good but then that is somewhat relative of course. However, are you confident of the near to mid future? I mean would you say give the current manager five years in order to deliver the title?

 

[Zlatan 7]

2nd place with 80 points? Followed by a period where the manager felt he wasn't backed and went into self-sabotage mode.

I get that Ole took over in the middle of a season that started disastrously, but the way some posters talk about it, you would think he brought us up from the Championship.

Regardless, that time with mourinho was not enjoyable for me

 

[NZT-One]

Happiest I’ve been since Ferguson left

See - you are traumatized ^^ isn't there name for that? When somebody is so happy a big suffering is gone that they don't recognize milder suffering as an issue?

 

[Zlatan 7]

Good but then that is somewhat relative of course. However, are you confident of the near to mid future? I mean would you say give the current manager five years in order to deliver the title?

What he’s done since he’s been here I’m happy with. It’s all well and good saying go out and get a shiney new toy. What Ole has done since he’s been here has got me enjoying being a fan of Manchester United again. Apart from seeing the constant crying from people online, but there we are.

 

[Zlatan 7]

See - you are traumatized ^^ isn't there name for that? When somebody is so happy a big suffering is gone that they don't recognize milder suffering as an issue?

You enjoyed the time with the previous 3 managers more? That’s good for you

 

[Ludens the Red]

Happiest I’ve been since Ferguson left

Out of interest what games in particular under Ole made you more happy than the three under Jose and LVG where we won cup finals?

 

[NZT-One]

You enjoyed the time with the previous 3 managers more? That’s good for you

Thats not the point. And I have a pretty good feeling that you are way too intelligent to deny that you don't know what I mean.

It isn't about the question if the present is better than the past - the question should be how the future looks. Fear of the past can create a future that is worse than it has to be.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Out of interest what games in particular under Ole made you more happy than the three under Jose and LVG where we won cup finals?

His tenure

 

[Zlatan 7]

Thats not the point. And I have a pretty good feeling that you are way too intelligent to deny that you don't know what I mean.

It isn't about the question if the present is better than the past - the question should be how the future looks. Fear of the past can create a future that is worse than it has to be.

Whatever buddy. You implied I was traumatised and had Stockholm syndrome as I liked Ole more. If you liked the others more good on you.

 

[NZT-One]

Whatever buddy. You implied I was traumatised and had Stockholm syndrome as I liked Ole more. If you liked the others more good on you.

Where did I say that I liked the others more? I didn't I am glad they are gone. And I am happy that Ole has done such a great job to do reset. But that doesn't mean the club owes him for eternity, right? Thats the point, the club has to do, what is best for the club and if at some point, the club makes the decision that Ole has gone as far as he can, then I would be happy if there is some preparation in place.

I thought Stockholm syndrome was when hostages fall in love with their capturers

 

[ti vu]

Whatever buddy. You implied I was traumatised and had Stockholm syndrome as I liked Ole more. If you liked the others more good on you.

I believe what is being implied is that just because we hit rock bottom (in some people's opinion), then any less terrible is considered good. In the other words, too haunted by some past event, that they can't find the bravery to fight the fear to look for better things.

 

[lex talionis]

I think he does to a normal extent. Just look at Lingard 1st half last year or Martial also last year. They got chances but at some point, they were severely down the pecking order. I think, your opinion is flawed because Fred is not doing as bad as people make out he is. He isn't an alltime great but he seemingly is doing the job he is asked to do. And apart from that he one of the few players who has so much workrate that he is able to compensate the lack of that for some other players. Granted, he has been somewhat out of form for a while now but not as severely as people depict it to be. Put Matic or Donny in against Villas press today and Matic is eaten alive, probably finding himself next to the goalkeeper most of the time to avoid the pressure. Donny is somewhat of an unknown entity in this sort of match - he certainly has the techical tools to deal with pressure, but does he have the intensity as well?

Lingard was apparently dealing with serious mental health issues, so I recall, and Martial had an injury of some sort that took him out for several months. I’m probably guilty of being too hard on Fred, but he has been shocking at times this season. Ole values Fred’s energy, but we really didn’t need both McTominay and Fred today…the former not looking fully fit at all and Fred being Fred. It’s easy to say this now, but given how immobile McTominay was today he clearly shouldn’t have started.

Hindsight, but we don’t see these players in training so we can’t really know anything about the expected performance level of the players until they perform. I don’t begrudge a manager fir being risk averse, but there are times when a risk has to be taken. McTominay didn’t look right, Ole should have known that and he should have gone with Donny to provide the progressive passing that McFred was utterly incapable of providing today.

 

[NZT-One]

I believe what is being implied is that just because we hit rock bottom (in some people's opinion), then any less terrible is considered good. In the other words, too haunted by some past event, that they can't find the bravery to fight the fear to look for better things.

Very well said. Couldn't have said it better.

Lingard was apparently dealing with serious mental health issues, so I recall, and Martial had an injury of some sort that took him out for several months. I’m probably guilty of being too hard on Fred, but he has been shocking at times this season. Ole values Fred’s energy, but we really didn’t need both McTominay and Fred today…the former not looking fully fit at all and Fred being Fred. It’s easy to say this now, but given how immobile McTominay was today he clearly shouldn’t have started.

Hindsight, but we don’t see these players in training so we can’t really know anything about the expected performance level of the players until they perform. I don’t begrudge a manager fir being risk averse, but there are times when a risk has to be taken. McTominay didn’t look right, Ole should have known that and he should have gone with Donny to provide the progressive passing that McFred was utterly incapable of providing today.

I agree with everything. I agree with your points regarding McTominay, he doesn't look fully fit and it effected his match. Would have subbed him at some point but I guess the injuries took some of Oles action-options away.

 

[Lost bear]

Whatever buddy. You implied I was traumatised and had Stockholm syndrome as I liked Ole more. If you liked the others more good on you.

It doesn’t really matter much about comparing Ole to the previous three (pretty poor) managers. Ole is poor right now- he has his good points but the tactical management of a football team is clearly not one of them. I’m only a newb, but can’t really understand why people cannot see this.

 

[elnorte]

What he’s done since he’s been here I’m happy with. It’s all well and good saying go out and get a shiney new toy. What Ole has done since he’s been here has got me enjoying being a fan of Manchester United again. Apart from seeing the constant crying from people online, but there we are.

Well I'm not saying that a replacement will improve things at all. In fact I don't think it will. And you have obviously reiterated that you are happy and expressed your reasons why. Again I'm just wondering if you feel he can deliver the big honours given time. Not a loaded question. If people think the answer is to allow him an extended (not indefinite) number of seasons to do so then at least it's a clear position to take even though its also challengeable.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Where did I say that I liked the others more? I didn't I am glad they are gone. And I am happy that Ole has done such a great job to do reset. But that doesn't mean the club owes him for eternity, right? Thats the point, the club has to do, what is best for the club and if at some point, the club makes the decision that Ole has gone as far as he can, then I would be happy if there is some preparation in place.

I thought Stockholm syndrome was when hostages fall in love with their capturers

You just started trying to be funny and I didn’t get it, just say what you think instead of wink faces and cleverness

 

[Zlatan 7]

Well I'm not saying that a replacement will improve things at all. In fact I don't think it will. And you have obviously reiterated that you are happy and expressed your reasons why. Again I'm just wondering if you feel he can deliver the big honours given time. Not a loaded question. If people think the answer is to allow him an extended (not indefinite) number of seasons to do so then at least it's a clear position to take even though its also challengeable.

I think after what he’s built over the last few seasons he deserves this season to see what he can do with it yes.

 

[NZT-One]

It doesn’t really matter much about comparing Ole to the previous three (pretty poor) managers. Ole is poor right now- he has his good points but the tactical management of a football team is clearly not one of them. I’m only a newb, but can’t really understand why people cannot see this.

To be honest, I think, quite a lot of them see it. But quite a few are highly invested in the Ole-In/Ole-Out wars because in the beginning it certainly was a worthy war against some knobheads that were not only impatient but also missing respect. Unfortunately this turned into a self-propelling s**t-show where two sides find it difficult to find common ground.

I think it is telling, that a few people that were very active usually in this thread after matches are non-existent for now. Kindergarten

 

[Rajma]

I don't think anyone believes Ole is the second coming of Johann Cruyff, however we are not a poorly coached side. In fact, its fairly obvious that Ole recognises the shortcomings of this squad.

Our midfield options are not good enough. There are few top teams, anywhere in the world, who will look at our midfield two and want to copy it. Our options for the pivot are not Kimmich and Gortezka. To be honest, City and Liverpool have substitutes who would start for us.

That is a huge problem because it means we get very little ball progression from the middle.

Ole clearly knows this and so tries to ferry out attacks down the flanks. However, Wan-Bissaka's limitations as a footballer effectively mean we're a one legged stool. All our decent build up goes via Luke Shaw and when he gets injured, like he did at the end of 2019/20 and today, then we've got nothing. We're basically hoping, somehow, the ball gets forward to one of our attackers and they do something special.

A new manager is not going to solve this problem. Wan-Bissaka will still never be Cafu. Matic will still be past his sell by date. Fred and McTominay will never be gifted with the deep lying playmaking of Fernando Redondo. The same issues will surface. We will still have to rely on our full backs for ball progression and, though we have a few, the only one who is worth a damn at getting the ball forward is Shaw.

Do not be deceived by the fact our squad cost a lot. It has serious holes. Any coach coming in will see that too. We might get some marginal gains from new management. However, don't think that this squad is going to be serious unless we a) get a decent attacking right back and b) revamp our midfield so its capable of quick transitions.

Well this to me just screams excuses…Anyone with a sane mind could have told you that we need a midfield revamp before the summer more than anything else with Matic on his last legs and McT being a decent sub player at the top level at best…Instead he chases Lingard’s signature rather than pushing him out for some funds, blocks DVB and Martial sales and goes for super expensive attacking option in Ronaldo (which we have plenty). He has totally brought it on himself with his amateurish squad optimization let’s be honest here at least.

 

[Anustart89]

Just remember that if Ole's contract hadn't been sorted and the players had been worrying about his tenure ending next summer, then we might have lost this game by even more goals!

 

[ray24]

My point is two fold: 1) Ole's coaching is not awful.

More of this please. The more Utd fanbase believe in the idea that Ole's coaching is a standard for a top 4 club, the easier it is for us Arsenal to get back into top 4.

 

[MichaelRed]

What he’s done since he’s been here I’m happy with. It’s all well and good saying go out and get a shiney new toy. What Ole has done since he’s been here has got me enjoying being a fan of Manchester United again. Apart from seeing the constant crying from people online, but there we are.

You enjoy park the bus, long ball, kick & run, hit & hope football? We had that under Mourinho but only with better defensive structure and actual trophies. Does your love of Ole somehow delude you into thinking this is attacking, front-foot football?

 

[Anustart89]

I don't think anyone believes Ole is the second coming of Johann Cruyff, however we are not a poorly coached side. In fact, its fairly obvious that Ole recognises the shortcomings of this squad.

Our midfield options are not good enough. There are few top teams, anywhere in the world, who will look at our midfield two and want to copy it. Our options for the pivot are not Kimmich and Gortezka. To be honest, City and Liverpool have substitutes who would start for us.

That is a huge problem because it means we get very little ball progression from the middle.

Ole clearly knows this and so tries to ferry out attacks down the flanks. However, Wan-Bissaka's limitations as a footballer effectively mean we're a one legged stool. All our decent build up goes via Luke Shaw and when he gets injured, like he did at the end of 2019/20 and today, then we've got nothing. We're basically hoping, somehow, the ball gets forward to one of our attackers and they do something special.

A new manager is not going to solve this problem. Wan-Bissaka will still never be Cafu. Matic will still be past his sell by date. Fred and McTominay will never be gifted with the deep lying playmaking of Fernando Redondo. The same issues will surface. We will still have to rely on our full backs for ball progression and, though we have a few, the only one who is worth a damn at getting the ball forward is Shaw.

Do not be deceived by the fact our squad cost a lot. It has serious holes. Any coach coming in will see that too. We might get some marginal gains from new management. However, don't think that this squad is going to be serious unless we a) get a decent attacking right back and b) revamp our midfield so its capable of quick transitions.

Well, you're making a point but you're neglecting that Ole's the one who prioritises targets and has over a three year period deemed a CM less important than CB/CB/RB/CAM/CAM/RW/ST if we're going by the big signings that he's made during his tenure. So for me, that's on him too.

It's like when the squad ran out of steam in his first and second seasons and everyone were all like "He can't trust his bench!!!! He's got no quality on the bench!!!", yet it's still Ole who chose to target two players for £130m when he could've had four players for the same money if he thought that the squad options and fitness of the team was of such poor quality.

Here we are, though, three years later, with a manager that still doesn't trust his bench, which will inevitably lead to burnout and fatigue that will mean that we get dumped out of competitions should we still be in them come May.

 

[Cassidy]

Well, you're making a point but you're neglecting that Ole's the one who prioritises targets and has over a three year period deemed a CM less important than CB/CB/RB/CAM/CAM/RW/ST if we're going by the big signings that he's made during his tenure. So for me, that's on him too.

It's like when the squad ran out of steam in his first and second seasons and everyone were all like "He can't trust his bench!!!! He's got no quality on the bench!!!", yet it's still Ole who chose to target two players for £130m when he could've had four players for the same money if he thought that the squad options and fitness of the team was of such poor quality.

Here we are, though, three years later, with a manager that still doesn't trust his bench, which will inevitably lead to burnout and fatigue that will mean that we get dumped out of competitions should we still be in them come May.

Not to mention signing a CM and not playing him

 

[Ralph1386]

But quite a few are highly invested in the Ole-In/Ole-Out wars

To be honest, there shouldn’t even be such a “war”. It’s ridiculous. The only thing we should debate is what is best for Manchester United. Full stop.

 

[elnorte]

I think after what he’s built over the last few seasons he deserves this season to see what he can do with it yes.

Cheers. It's certainly both interesting and unpredictable. Personally I can't see a mid-season managerial change unless the club drops significantly below the Champions League places which seems highly unlikely to happen.

 

[NZT-One]

To be honest, there shouldn’t even be such a “war”. It’s ridiculous. The only thing we should debate is what is best for Manchester United. Full stop.

I totally agree. But these things don't appear from thin air, they built up constantly.

 

[Idxomer]

Just remember that if Ole's contract hadn't been sorted and the players had been worrying about his tenure ending next summer, then we might have lost this game by even more goals!

 

[ray24]

Well, you're making a point but you're neglecting that Ole's the one who prioritises targets and has over a three year period deemed a CM less important than CB/CB/RB/CAM/CAM/RW/ST if we're going by the big signings that he's made during his tenure. So for me, that's on him too.

It's like when the squad ran out of steam in his first and second seasons and everyone were all like "He can't trust his bench!!!! He's got no quality on the bench!!!", yet it's still Ole who chose to target two players for £130m when he could've had four players for the same money if he thought that the squad options and fitness of the team was of such poor quality.

Here we are, though, three years later, with a manager that still doesn't trust his bench, which will inevitably lead to burnout and fatigue that will mean that we get dumped out of competitions should we still be in them come May.

To be fair, "feck midfield" is kinda the "United Way" you guys have been talking so much about. Ole as a student of Fergie not caring about midfield is not exactly strange.

 

[Lentwood]

I do think we're currently trying to come to terms with a new, more aggressive style of play, and not doing it particularly well right now.

However, I just watched the Liverpool highlights, and one thing that struck me again is that we do seem to have to work incredibly hard for our goals. Liverpool scored three today, none of them could be attributed to "patterns of play" or stylish attacking football. One a nothing cross that the Brentford CB misjudges, one a nothing shot that takes a deflection from a Brentford defender stood ridiculously deep and one a mundane knock over the top that Salah manages to get on the end of due to a wonky defensive line.

Now, genuine question, what is it we are not doing that a team like Liverpool is doing? Are we too predictable? Do we not get enough bodies in the box? Do we not cross the ball early enough? Do we pass up too many opportunities to shoot, or are we too greedy?

We can talk about "patterns of play" and attacking overloads, but that wasn't how Liverpool scored any of their goals today. I thought this might be fixed with a proper CF, but we still seem to be having issue. Over 50 shots in our last two games and no goals to show for it. No real guilt edge chances either, more worringly. Why is that?

Edit: One of my theories is that we don't keep the ball well enough in midfield/defence to draw the opposition out. Our problems have been particularly bad at OT, where we typically face very deep, packed defences. We seem to rush the ball forward and hit a brick wall. The reason top sides have started focusing on ball-playing defenders, DMs ans GKs is that you can "tease" the opposition into pressing you high and then beat the press. We can't/don't do that. We rush it forward, trying impossible passes or crossing into packed penalty areas. Do we need to be more patient, and focus on drawing the opposition out?