That post-Mourinho period felt great. Like going to Amsterdam with the lads to celebrate the end of an unhappy marriage. But that should never have been the basis for giving him the job full time.
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
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That post-Mourinho period felt great. Like going to Amsterdam with the lads to celebrate the end of an unhappy marriage. But that should never have been the basis for giving him the job full time.
Going to waste prime years of a number of keys players because of sub-standard coaching. Need to get rid as soon as possible.
Like Ole but he is tactically limited and it shows far too often. We still rely on individual brilliance, even against inferior opposition.
Like Ole but he is tactically limited and it shows far too often. We still rely on individual brilliance, even against inferior opposition.
Crazy thing was, If the club had continued with their supposed process at the time (wait until end of season then assess) then it's 99.9% chance he wouldn't have survived it.
After that PSG away, we lost our next two matches, he was then appointed afterwards, and we won 2/10 remaining fixtures (lost 6), culminating in 2-0 loss at home to relegated Cardiff on final day.
So he's been extremely fortunate ever since. He owes his whole Man Utd managerial career to PSG away.
Yet 90% of people will call you reactionary if you say Ole out. Despite 3 years of utter shit and his appointment being the most reactionary decision ever made.
Those lot aren't football fans, they are top reds that just support the club religiously and blindly and won't question anything that is wrong with it because in their eyes it makes them "better fans" than everyone else.
There are many teams that play better football than us even in other leagues, but those fans wouldn't have a clue about it because they don't watch any football outside of Man Utd.
Half of them wouldn't know what a good coached team looks like if it hitted them in the face.
To be fair if you're going to tell me now he passed his Cycling Proficiency I'm going demand they extend his contract.
I love the posters who rush to this place to effectively say: 'We've won a match, this won't make the knee-jerkers happy' without a drop of self-awareness.
He's done very good work in building the squad, and the way he's conducted himself in public is exemplary, but now that the squad is actually at the level ready to compete, his limitations as a coach are there for all to see.
I do hope he can understand that, and move aside as amicably as possible before the season is a write off.
Yea, I am glad I am not the only one that notice this. They also have influence on the mods, so when they report someone for not sharing their views, they get put on radar and on quality inspections. His name is wuminator for a reason. He offers very little to a discussion and hides that by reporting people who don't share his view. It is best not to take them seriously.
Quite honestly even though he is way past his prime I think Mourinho could achieve more with this current set of players we have which isn't saying much
We could kill two birds with one stone by getting rid of ole bringing in zidane or conte which would highly likely make pogba stay with us and safe us losing him for bloody free as he has worked under conte and done well under him and could also imagine he would love to play for zidane as well. There is no way he is dumb enough to waste his remaining prime years playing for a average manager and a club that shows no ambition by keeping him on.
But this only works under the premise that another coach will come in and replicate a good job in a way that Tuchel did last season. If he doesn't do that, the season would (in your scenario) still be a write off. What is the probability of that? I guess, we wouldn't look at Tuchel last year so much, if this happens all the time. So it isn't the usual outcome of changing a manager midterm.
Plus, in my eyes, I think, now leaving the boat to jump on the next best manager would also be reactionary - at least as long as there haven't been any preparations done in the background. Do we think the club did that? I certainly don't.
Adding Zidane or Conte will sound good at first but the outcome is just as "not guaranteed" as it is right now. So in my eyes it isn't worth the hussle. Just use the time until the summer smartly, scout managers, coaches, make contact, do the backgroundstuff but do it quietly. And then, if the situation demands it, act well prepared and swiftly. And let everybody walk off in peace in the end.
I would hope for some decency amidst fans, I know, some of the "Outers" have been handled a bit unfairly, but lets not turn the wheel another time, be the bigger woman/man, add todays match to the arguments why you think, your stance is the right one and then move on. The most enthusiastic Ole In guys won't change anyway.
We have seen the agenda he has been pushing for weeks, today is the final evidence of the silliness of it.
Ole's been given more than enough time to prove that he's up to it. He's simply not, while a system certainly improve with better players it don't just show up because you buy better players.
It's been this way for the last 3 years and it will be the same for as long as Ole is in charge, anyone thinking time or a new CDM, RB or whatever will fix the issues is just having wishful thinking.
We are wasting time at this point, I think we are in the highest point of the curve of the current squad. Cavani and Ronaldo will start to get worse fast and key players such as Shaw, Maguire, Pogba and Bruno won't get better. This is the time we should be getting titles, this same squad after two seasons and we will start talking about a whole rebuild again.
It's frustrating how we as a club are ok with it, it's been 8 long long years without a top title and yet we keep wasting time as if there's no hurry.
It's been this way for the last 3 years and it will be the same for as long as Ole is in charge, anyone thinking time or a new CDM, RB or whatever will fix the issues is just having wishful thinking.
We are wasting time at this point, I think we are in the highest point of the curve of the current squad. Cavani and Ronaldo will start to get worse fast and key players such as Shaw, Maguire, Pogba and Bruno won't get better. This is the time we should be getting titles, this same squad after two seasons and we will start talking about a whole rebuild again.
It's frustrating how we as a club are ok with it, it's been 8 long long years without a top title and yet we keep wasting time as if there's no hurry.
True but the funny thing is, that it seems like @Wumminator actually does know better as he wasn't like that during Mourinho's tenure at all. He just loves Ole.
A manager is supposed to make the sum of the parts of a team greater than the individual parts but the reverse is the case in our context. Honestly I am fed up and I can’t wait to see the back of Ole. I thought we would finally be in the conversation of league leaders looking at the business we did in summer but we still seem to struggle every single game.
You are right. But now it seems Ole has hit a roadblock. He is no longer Progressing. It is always the same formation 4231. Why doesn't he play attacking football. Why is he so defensive minded. It seems he is so afraid to lose that he doesn't want to attack.
There's something to this. People talk about the 'footballisation' of politics. Well, I think there's been a politicisation of football. Too often fans express themselves as if they're on club payroll; ambassadors to the club who just have to stick to the party/club line. It's definitely an online thing. At grounds and in the pub fans aren't like that.They may not slate the manager but if we've played shit they'll be angry and cuss someone out, at least for a few hours until they calmed down.
Here sometimes it's like aim is to hold the line, lest it get noticed by the 'Top Reds members association' and they get kicked out of that particular magic circle.
Why often it's like seeing a minister squirm during a Paxman interview. Just caught shitting the bed but wants to draw attention to the tremendous first half possession stats as a sign things aren't so bad and everyone is being hysterical not being happy with the turd laid on the sheets. As if their immediate reaction to losing a match is 'I for one am delighted we won so many throw-ins'. I don't understand it. I think it goes: she won't shag you.
Those games we need to put to bed early and tbh I think that most of the time we're so naive and play with lack of urgency, intention and we're so apathetic.
We don't dominate games enough and we saw that today that after some time Villa got comfortable and they saw that the "monster" isn't that bad.
Don't get me wrong I saw some positives and negatives:
We don't dominate games enough and we saw that today that after some time Villa got comfortable and they saw that the "monster" isn't that bad.
Don't get me wrong I saw some positives and negatives:
- we moved the ball better today and sometimes broke their press from side to side(reminded me Eric Ramsey's video about ball movement).
- we created chances - we had 28 goal attempts in this game
- but unfortunately those chances aren't quality enough and the players who are most suffer and frustrated from this is our strikers because we aren't create enough for them.
- Every time we play a game - we make it so difficult for ourselves and tbh I can't remember the last time I really enjoyed united play football without any of some sort of concern or agony. everything and every game is so difficult for us.
The management are the weakest link.
Playing squad is good enough to win the league and we've lost 3 out of 4 games because the management decisions, coaching, team selections and substitutions aren't anything near acceptable.
Only so long you can say we need new players and so much you can spend before you have to accept the management is the issue now.
Playing squad is good enough to win the league and we've lost 3 out of 4 games because the management decisions, coaching, team selections and substitutions aren't anything near acceptable.
Only so long you can say we need new players and so much you can spend before you have to accept the management is the issue now.
Agreed.
When ole started it was just a case of building up the team spirit, putting some fun back into it and getting a good “feck off mourinho” bounce.
That was all that was required.
It’s been patently clear for a while now that ole is severely lacking tactically.
Player for player I would not swap our front five for any other team in the world and yet we play like they’ve only just met each other.
It’s been said before but look at Chelsea. Almost identical situations, Chelsea acted decisively and sacked lampard then won the champions league and look a real force this year.
We look like we are still treading water.
We are highly fortunate to have as many points as we have this season and as today showed eventually the poor performances will catch up with us.
Ole has to go, right now.
I don't think anyone believes Ole is the second coming of Johann Cruyff, however we are not a poorly coached side. In fact, its fairly obvious that Ole recognises the shortcomings of this squad.
Our midfield options are not good enough. There are few top teams, anywhere in the world, who will look at our midfield two and want to copy it. Our options for the pivot are not Kimmich and Gortezka. To be honest, City and Liverpool have substitutes who would start for us.
That is a huge problem because it means we get very little ball progression from the middle.
Ole clearly knows this and so tries to ferry out attacks down the flanks. However, Wan-Bissaka's limitations as a footballer effectively mean we're a one legged stool. All our decent build up goes via Luke Shaw and when he gets injured, like he did at the end of 2019/20 and today, then we've got nothing. We're basically hoping, somehow, the ball gets forward to one of our attackers and they do something special.
A new manager is not going to solve this problem. Wan-Bissaka will still never be Cafu. Matic will still be past his sell by date. Fred and McTominay will never be gifted with the deep lying playmaking of Fernando Redondo. The same issues will surface. We will still have to rely on our full backs for ball progression and, though we have a few, the only one who is worth a damn at getting the ball forward is Shaw.
Do not be deceived by the fact our squad cost a lot. It has serious holes. Any coach coming in will see that too. We might get some marginal gains from new management. However, don't think that this squad is going to be serious unless we a) get a decent attacking right back and b) revamp our midfield so its capable of quick transitions.
Our midfield options are not good enough. There are few top teams, anywhere in the world, who will look at our midfield two and want to copy it. Our options for the pivot are not Kimmich and Gortezka. To be honest, City and Liverpool have substitutes who would start for us.
That is a huge problem because it means we get very little ball progression from the middle.
Ole clearly knows this and so tries to ferry out attacks down the flanks. However, Wan-Bissaka's limitations as a footballer effectively mean we're a one legged stool. All our decent build up goes via Luke Shaw and when he gets injured, like he did at the end of 2019/20 and today, then we've got nothing. We're basically hoping, somehow, the ball gets forward to one of our attackers and they do something special.
A new manager is not going to solve this problem. Wan-Bissaka will still never be Cafu. Matic will still be past his sell by date. Fred and McTominay will never be gifted with the deep lying playmaking of Fernando Redondo. The same issues will surface. We will still have to rely on our full backs for ball progression and, though we have a few, the only one who is worth a damn at getting the ball forward is Shaw.
Do not be deceived by the fact our squad cost a lot. It has serious holes. Any coach coming in will see that too. We might get some marginal gains from new management. However, don't think that this squad is going to be serious unless we a) get a decent attacking right back and b) revamp our midfield so its capable of quick transitions.
Starting to see the funny side of it. At this point there's not much else we can do. I mean just imagine these kind of performances with that player material at hand
I so much like your reasoning here. If we are able to get Zidane today there’d be some kind of rekindling of the hope to get Pogba signed to a new contract. Unfortunately what the decision makers only think about is £££.
Agree. It's a bit of a mess really.
Unfortunately under Ole we will take two steps forward & two steps back. We have never been consistent under Ole. Nothing will change.
Sorry but no, i agree that our midfield is awful, which boggles my mind even more when he keeps persisting with Mctominay and Fred when they are both awful, at this point i don’t feel sorry for him when he doesn’t give a run of games to VDB in the middle, or move Pogba to the middle, or try something, he is persisting with something that just isn’t working, on a consistent basis, maybe the other options aren’t great but i refuse to believe having VDB in the middle is going to be any worse than Fred especially when he said himself that VDB can play in that role.
Not only that, but yes, i agree no top club is going to want to emulate our current midfield, however we aren’t talking about top clubs currently are we, are you honestly suggesting that we have a worse midfield/squad than Aston Villa, West Ham and dare i say it, Young Boys? Because as far as i’m concerned we have a good enough squad that we should not be playing this ‘McFred’ against the likes of AV and getting dominated.
Just more excuses to spend more and more money, we’re the only club where a manager comes in and is going to take 5 seasons and half a billion every time to get us challenging, i’m sick and tired of watching other clubs where a manager comes in and you see identity straight away, you see purpose straight away, yes Chelsea already had a good squad, but Lampard had them playing terribly, Tuchel comes in same season and they win the CL, significant investment this season just as we have had, and they are likely to be challenging on all fronts again, so again, why isn’t it ‘Oh Tuchel is gonna need 5 seasons and hundreds of millions to put his own stamp on the team before anything give him time.’ Ole is our Lampard, simple as that.
After spending a fortune for the past 2 years, we have lost to Young Boys, West Ham and Aston Villa in a space of two weeks. On top of that we are the only big team that can't control a match and rely purely on counter attack or individual brilliance to win. How is that not bad coaching?
Funny because he was the one signed AWB and Donny for 90m. The excuses has to stop and Ole just has to own up.
Its a genuine embarrassment when you think of the money that's been spent since Sir Alex retired. Our squad has one #6 who's pretty close to the Travellers yard. A handful of #8s, of whom only Pogba would be sought after by any other top team (and I think we've established he's better in a middle three than a double pivot). Then a bunch of #10s from Bruno to Mata, the last of whom may as well be the invisible man for all the top flight games he'll get this season.
If you gave the money that was spent on just Matic, Fred and Van de Beek to a top, top sporting director you could have revamped the United midfield in a summer and got a good attacking right back to boot.
This squad is a hotchpotch of players, which is basically relying on people being so scared of what we've got up top that they won't come out and expose our flaws.
I'll take Young Boys out of the equation because we played an hour with 10 men. However, yes I am seriously suggesting that our midfield is comparable to the other teams you mentioned.
Pogba does not want to play in a midfield pivot. No matter how much Ole tries to force him to do so. Van de Beek is a #10 masquerading as an #8. Perhaps Donny should be given more chances in the pivot. However, over the past season or so very little suggests he's up to scratch in that role.
I don't believe Moyes would swap Rice and Soucek for our options, for the system he wants to play with a double pivot. Villa would have Pogba but that's because they play 3-5-2 and Pogba likes a midfield three. We delude ourselves if we think the names in our squad mean we have a functioning array of talent for a 4-2-3-1. In fact I would question if we even have a complimentary enough set of midfielders to play a middle three. As I've said Matic's legs are dead.
This is true. It doesn't mean that a new coach coming in won't throw his hands up at the makeup of our squad and say: 'This is a bit of a mess isn't it?'
I'm not saying Ole hasn't made some rods for his own back. Maybe he thought Wan-Bissaka would get better at attacking? He sure as s-t hasn't. Maybe he thought Donny could play in any of the midfield roles, as he did at Ajax. After 12 months though its yet to be seen.
However, if and when Ole goes that won't make our squad suddenly balanced. Wan-Bissaka isn't suddenly going to become Trent Alexander-Arnold. Pogba isn't going to suddenly like playing in the pivot. McTominay and Fred aren't going to start whipping balls about from #6 like Xabi Alonso.
If we win anything this season it'll be because of miraculous individual performances from Ronaldo. And if we change the manager that will still be the case until we fix the gaping holes in the squad.
Can't help but laugh at this. Of course the solution to a problem is to buy more players. Lets do that and then Ole can turn them to crap as well. Its not as if we spent 40 million on VDB, 55 million on AWB and lets not forget wasting 15 million on a championship player and 40 million on a youngster we've sent on loan. Some dubious decision making.
How about actually improving some players?
Yes, he has no clue, yet even most people who want him out would admit that he’s done a good job steadying the ship. He’s also year on year improved our standing in the league table.
He might be ready for the chop, but calling him clueless is just stupid.
Well Ole was the one who brought in AWB wasn't he? He also brought in Maguire, a player probably not suited to playing in a high line (which is one of the prerequisites when you want to play a really aggressive pressing like he has been talking about). He could have tried to sell some players in the summer, maybe not for the best prices ever but for something, he could have gone for his B-solution in midfield, if he was aware that midfield forces him out wide where he has the AWB problem. No matter how you turn it, Oles decisions are part of what got us where we are. All the good places and all the bad ones too.
I also am pretty adamant to just lay all the s**t at Freds and McTominays door.
It isn't their fault, that Bruno often plays pretty high up the field instead of participating in the builtup.
It isn't their fault, that we seemingly have no instructions how to use space and how far apart from each other the players are. Fred isn't Pogba passing wise, but he is just fine, but if so often all the attackers stay high and he has no other options, he can either go for the Hollywood pass and look stupid and look stupid 4 out of 5 times or he can play it safely back and look stupid 5 out of 5 times.
It isn't McFreds fault, that our front players try to stay high up the field, don't know if to "press" or just to conserve energy while our defense usually is very slow to squeeze up the field to not create these huge distance. It isn't McFreds fault that our creators aren't known for their workrates and to help out, while all our "wingers" are strikers who seem to understand their role to "just stay up and try to score".
You are right, there are quite a few issues within the squad. As they are in any other squad on the planet. But a managers job is to find solution to circumvent these issues (at least as many as he can). But, and that is obvious even in the threads around here, as long as people are adamant to stack all our great attacking talent onto each other in the starting elevens, then there will always be problems with balance. Forever.
We need more of:
- cohesion
- plans how to engage certain situations on the field (like an opponent who surrenders the ball and defends very organized)
- workrate
- teamplay in defense and in attack
- really good players
All but the last things can be worked on tomorrow. We don't have to wait for January or June of next year. That is the issue many here have - we are wasting time by just acting that only new players a viable improvements.
All of what I said, is completely indepent who the manager is, so this text isn't about getting rid or keeping him. It is about what I think a manager should do and the stuff is there for everybody to see. Just work on it and if things get better, people will notice.
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Yeah, I'm tired of this load of shite excuses. We don't play as a team, the players are clueless of what to do in most defensive or attacking situations.
I can't believe people still have the audacity to speak about investing into the squad and us having "glaring" holes.
No manager in the world has a perfect team because there will always be a weak link.
Last year it was "get a CB and a RW""
Now it's "get a midfielder".
Sure, we need a better midfield to win the CL, not to beat Villa at home. It's embarrassing and frankly I don't want Ole near any of our young talent. The world has moved on. You can't just "go out and play" anymore.
Last year it was "get a CB and a RW""
Now it's "get a midfielder".
Sure, we need a better midfield to win the CL, not to beat Villa at home. It's embarrassing and frankly I don't want Ole near any of our young talent. The world has moved on. You can't just "go out and play" anymore.
That's like saying why couldn't Pep make Bravo and Negredo better after he bought them?
I agree with you, we've made a lot of dud buys. However, that doesn't change what we had today does it?
What people want to believe is that if we just changed Ole we'd suddenly become a well oiled unit. I don't see that based on the parts a new coach would have at his disposal.
Say we got Zidane next week. Zidane has never coached a squad of players this limited before. Our attacking talent may be in some way comparable to what he had at Madrid. But we have nobody in midfield who touches Casemiro or Kroos or Modric. Zidane, being a genius footballer himself, will see this in one training session. He will end up making very similar decisions to Ole until he can address the squad's makeup.
I think I've addressed most of this in my reply to @bond19821982.
At the end of the day players have a ceiling and a level. Fred could spend every spare hour of his time doing keep ball with Carrick at Carrington and he'd never be good enough.
Even Klopp couldn't turn Klavan and Karius into top players. At the end of the day you can only do what you can with what you've got. Undoubtedly what we've got is partly down to Ole. I would just caution you to not think Ole going will change everything.
Good managers get more out of the squad than they are given. Can you say that Ole has given us "more than the sum of its' parts" of our squad? If the answer is no (it is), then he should be gone. Just because we may not make the right buy/hire next, that's not an excuse to stay in mediocrity. This fan base is so risk averse it's actually pathetic.
On many occasions he has. We have had some great moments under Ole. I'm not sure he will ever be Julian Nagelsmann however.
You're turning this into an Ole in/Ole out argument.
My point is two fold: 1) Ole's coaching is not awful. 2) The next coach will find the squad's limitations limits what they can do with it as well. Admittedly, as I've said to others, that is partly down to players signed under Ole. Although, after the scattergun approach that preceded him, I do think Ole has more of a general idea for recruitment than what we endured between him and Fergie.
Just disagree entirely then.
1) His coaching is awful in my eyes. Even the way he describes it to the media is embarrassing for a manager in 2021.
2) All squads have limitations, but to have as many as people say after spending as much as Ole has, is down to the manager
3) All clubs are hit and miss in the transfer window, different is we can pay premium for all our players compared to Arsenal/Liverpool and our manager still struggles with them.
I just dont think he is getting the best out of the players we have. We have on paper one of the top five teams in the world. But we dont play like it though.