We are an awfully coached team

[Godfather]

I am not trying to troll or pile on but this is absolutely fecking crazy:


4 passes later, Porto scored. The guy that Casemiro is next to is the next one to receive a pass. 5 of your players are pushed up into the opposition final third yet none of them do anything to influence the next ball being played. It's a fecking ludicrous height to have your wide players given where the defensive line is - the plan seems to be let 32 year old Casemiro cover the entire middle third of the pitch??

It's our standard tactics yes. Leave the midfield up to Casemiro, "press" with four to five players who have no idea how a cohesive press works and leave the defence miles behind. Absolutely ridiculous to be so stretched.

 

[NZT-One]

I am not trying to troll or pile on but this is absolutely fecking crazy:


4 passes later, Porto scored. The guy that Casemiro is next to is the next one to receive a pass. 5 of your players are pushed up into the opposition final third yet none of them do anything to influence the next ball being played. It's a fecking ludicrous height to have your wide players given where the defensive line is - the plan seems to be let 32 year old Casemiro cover the entire middle third of the pitch??

Yeah, lets just assume, that the manager is just dumb, right? Because thats what made him earn more in most of the posters in here combined. Because he is dumb. Also good to see so many being ready to jump onto that genius conclusion. Is there any chance, you might have considered, that the front 4 in your freeze-frame has pushed up too much or at the wrong moment? Is there a chance, that maybe the defense hasn't pushed up when they should have had to?

Trying to push Porto too high with this line up is a valid point and criticism towards Ten Hag, but lets not invent fictional stories on top of it. I know, the "dumb" stuff and "fraud" stuff is popular these days and therefor attractive to jump on to but whats the point!?

I’m not sure we are an awfully coached team at this moment, we are trying to play football at a higher technical level than what we have done in the past, and we’ve seen against cannon fodder this season that at times they can make it work.

Against Palace was probably the closest we’ve been to what I assume is the overall idea of how ETH wants us to play. However as soon as we come up against anyone that’s is mildly decent that has pace and power and we fall apart.

What I assume the strategy is is that we play with a highline, squeezing the space and being more compact overall. That just makes it easier to win the ball back and to attack.(transition)

There is no world where I believe he wants that much space between defence, midfield and attack especially where in brief moments this season we’ve seen the back line push up, be aggressive and win the ball back quickly.

A problem now seems that they are slow and don’t seem to trust that midfield will be there or can hold possession/help out when we lose the ball so they are playing scared and dropping back to try and cover their lack of pace.

Dalot is clearly tasked with playing in a manner that is putting a lot of responsibility on him to read the game and make the correct decisions. Again against Palace he seemed to do that. He has to get better at making the decision of when he can go forward and when he needs to sit inside the midfield allowing Bruno/Mainoo or Eriksen to go join the attack. (Covid Shaw did it perfectly)

He’s not helped by the fact that Rashford isn’t the most helpful whilst covering his flank. It’s always going to be an issue there but the biggest issue in all of this is the midfield.

They are lazy, can’t keep the ball to save their own skin and really don’t work or help each other out. It’s compounded with them being really slow and easily bullied. It’s a huge issue and generally we aren’t going anywhere with these tactics till 3-4 new midfielders more suited to how we are trying to play are brought in.

Because for the highline and pressing to work with the defenders we have we need the midfielders to be able to hold the ball and be better at winning it back quickly. You could argue that then this is suicidal tactics by ETH since we don’t have the people to do it. (Mount, Mainoo, Ugarte could maybe do a better job )

At somepoint ETH has to recognise it’s not doable with the midfield combos he has and that if he wants to play Bruno he probably needs to shut up midfield and plant Ugarte and Casemiro in just patrolling it .

Basically from what I can see there are people making the wrong decisions on the pitch or not capable of doing what is asked of them, plus ETH being stubborn and trying to force it to work. I don’t really see what sacking him would achieve at this moment as the problems are there on the pitch and any manager is going to have the same issues, especially if Ineos overall plan is to play in this high aggressive manner.

Well said. I have the same criticism, the issue isn't the tactics per se, it is either the managers stubbornness to accept, that it doesn't really works with the players he wants to have in the lineup.

Ok I'll admit to being pretty clueless when it comes to tactics, but watching highlights of recent games, I keep noticing de Ligt and Martinez in the opposition 18-yard box as we are attacking, not on set-pieces, which seems normal enough, but on regular passages of play. Again I'm not the most attentive to such things, but is that something that we have done in the past (ie. is it normal, whatever 'normal' may mean?)

When you want to build up pressure and the opposition defends with 10 men behind the ball, then of course, it is a situation that can occur. Also in times of pressing, teams have to work together and move as a team. That means, everybody is supposed to move more up and down, so the distances between players do not fluctuate as much as they do for us since last season. It is an organisation and synchronization thing plus having a team that is more on the below-average side in terms of workrate and intensity.

 

[MadDogg]

Yeah, lets just assume, that the manager is just dumb, right? Because thats what made him earn more in most of the posters in here combined. Because he is dumb. Also good to see so many being ready to jump onto that genius conclusion. Is there any chance, you might have considered, that the front 4 in your freeze-frame has pushed up too much or at the wrong moment? Is there a chance, that maybe the defense hasn't pushed up when they should have had to?

Trying to push Porto too high with this line up is a valid point and criticism towards Ten Hag, but lets not invent fictional stories on top of it. I know, the "dumb" stuff and "fraud" stuff is popular these days and therefor attractive to jump on to but whats the point!?

This season you might have a point. We are playing a little more compactly and haven't been leaving the midfield quite so open this season, generally having our second midfielder helping out the DM a bit more. So the situation in that screenshot likely was a mistake by one or more players.

However this was something we did dozens of times every single game last season. ETH very clearly wanted the front five pushing up very high and leaving the DM behind to look after the midfield himself. The positioning wasn't just a mistake that happened occasionally (like it is to some extent this season), it was the default positioning and movement of all our players. So after a full season of having his players play like that, it's not surprising that they'll still fall into that pattern at times.

Well said. I have the same criticism, the issue isn't the tactics per se, it is either the managers stubbornness to accept, that it doesn't really works with the players he wants to have in the lineup.

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that the manager is implementing good tactics and it's just the players not being able to follow through. I find that a bit of a cop-out to be honest and I don't know why ETH should get the benefit of the doubt in that aspect and not...well, every other single manager in the world when they are failing. The fact it's happening so often no matter what players he has on the pitch strongly points toward it being the tactics themselves (or the coaching to implement them) just not being good enough.

 

[Marcus]

Sir Alex played 451 towards the end of his tenure when the Glazers were stingy and still won the league. You have got to know when to adapt your tactics. Sadly our current manager is stubborn and inept. Choosing to pursue suicidal tactics ad nauseum.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Yeah, lets just assume, that the manager is just dumb, right? Because thats what made him earn more in most of the posters in here combined. Because he is dumb. Also good to see so many being ready to jump onto that genius conclusion. Is there any chance, you might have considered, that the front 4 in your freeze-frame has pushed up too much or at the wrong moment? Is there a chance, that maybe the defense hasn't pushed up when they should have had to?

Trying to push Porto too high with this line up is a valid point and criticism towards Ten Hag, but lets not invent fictional stories on top of it. I know, the "dumb" stuff and "fraud" stuff is popular these days and therefor attractive to jump on to but whats the point!?

I mean, it's also Ten Hag's job to communicate the plan to the players? If they are misunderstanding his tactical intentions that is also his fault.

I also didn't call him "dumb" or a "fraud" in my post - there's nothing inherently wrong with setting up a team out of possession in a 4-1-4-1, but there is something very wrong if you expect that one deep-lying midfielder to cover an entire third of the pitch by himself. Maybe the players let him down and either a fullback was supposed to step into midfield or maybe Amad and Bruno should realise that they are completely worthless being pushed forward given Hojlund's pressing shadow - but are you really giving Ten Hag the benefit of the doubt at this point?

 

[kaku06]

It’s so strange that people just refuse to believe that we haven’t hired a great coach since Ferguson retired

Ole hasn’t done it anywhere, Moyes is a limited coach who should never have been anywhere near a top team. Mourinho and LVG have since proven to be well past their sell-by-date. In the case of LVG, about 15 years past it.

That only leaves Ten Hag, who is 54 and had never managed a top club, or won anything outside of Holland, much like de Boer. Dominant with a dominant team. He very clearly has no idea how to set up a team in a top league.

We have never given the job to a top coach in, or approaching, the prime of his career. We should try that before deciding the club is cursed.

Just make a good decision, for once.

Agreed and I’ve been banging that drum too but some people are too convinced that we ruin managers including people like Gary Neville. The reality is we fecking hire either has beens or naive/novices for coaches. It’s what we are good at and the only thing we are consistent at.

 

[DSG]

Yeah, lets just assume, that the manager is just dumb, right? Because thats what made him earn more in most of the posters in here combined. Because he is dumb. Also good to see so many being ready to jump onto that genius conclusion. Is there any chance, you might have considered, that the front 4 in your freeze-frame has pushed up too much or at the wrong moment? Is there a chance, that maybe the defense hasn't pushed up when they should have had to?

Trying to push Porto too high with this line up is a valid point and criticism towards Ten Hag, but lets not invent fictional stories on top of it. I know, the "dumb" stuff and "fraud" stuff is popular these days and therefor attractive to jump on to but whats the point!?

Well said. I have the same criticism, the issue isn't the tactics per se, it is either the managers stubbornness to accept, that it doesn't really works with the players he wants to have in the lineup.

When you want to build up pressure and the opposition defends with 10 men behind the ball, then of course, it is a situation that can occur. Also in times of pressing, teams have to work together and move as a team. That means, everybody is supposed to move more up and down, so the distances between players do not fluctuate as much as they do for us since last season. It is an organisation and synchronization thing plus having a team that is more on the below-average side in terms of workrate and intensity.

This is pure delusion.

Watch a few tactics clips, almost every decent coach, manager and pundit has been amazed at how poor the tactics that Ten Hag has installed are.

Our high press is ridiculously poorly coached. In well coached sides, There is always a trigger, whether it’s a space on the pitch or a specific player. We have neither.

The depth of our defense means that once the poor press is beaten, it’s off to the races because of the massive gaps in the midfield.

Spacing of the defenders is problematic. Coaching. Dalot pinching in to help in the midfield and thus being out of position whe the turnover happens. Coaching.

These are all full internationals who have played in complex systems for previous club coaches and their national sides. They are doing what they have been told to do.

It IS tactics. He’s maybe the worst tactical manager we’ve had in the last 50 years. He is a stupid, stupid man. These aren’t harsh words, they are actually true.

 

[lemmiwink]

This is pure delusion.

Watch a few tactics clips, almost every decent coach, manager and pundit has been amazed at how poor the tactics that Ten Hag has installed are.

Our high press is ridiculously poorly coached. In well coached sides, There is always a trigger, whether it’s a space on the pitch or a specific player. We have neither.

The depth of our defense means that once the poor press is beaten, it’s off to the races because of the massive gaps in the midfield.

Spacing of the defenders is problematic. Coaching. Dalot pinching in to help in the midfield and thus being out of position whe the turnover happens. Coaching.

These are all full internationals who have played in complex systems for previous club coaches and their national sides. They are doing what they have been told to do.

It IS tactics. He’s maybe the worst tactical manager we’ve had in the last 50 years. He is a stupid, stupid man. These aren’t harsh words, they are actually true.

Yeah, I wholeheartidly agree. It is stubborn foolishness and pride at this point. It does not equal stupid, but it is very dumb.

 

[NZT-One]

However this was something we did dozens of times every single game last season. ETH very clearly wanted the front five pushing up very high and leaving the DM behind to look after the midfield himself.

I agree, we've seen it multiple times, no question about it. Also no question that it is a problem. One thing I am not convinced though: how do we know that ETH specifically intends his DM to be alone in acres of space? Again, I agree, it happenend and it did way too often but I always think, the issue is spacing of the players with the front-4 a little too eager and the back-4 a little too timid. I mean, even if we assume that ETH is dumb enough to integrate this fault into his system, do we really think, all his coaches just let it slide?

The positioning wasn't just a mistake that happened occasionally (like it is to some extent this season), it was the default positioning and movement of all our players. So after a full season of having his players play like that, it's not surprising that they'll still fall into that pattern at times.

No question about it. And I am fully on board, that it is unacceptable, how little development there seemingly is and was and at this point in time, I have nothing that keeps me connected to ETH other than being a little worried, who we bring in next.

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that the manager is implementing good tactics and it's just the players not being able to follow through. I find that a bit of a cop-out to be honest and I don't know why ETH should get the benefit of the doubt in that aspect and not...well, every other single manager in the world when they are failing. The fact it's happening so often no matter what players he has on the pitch strongly points toward it being the tactics themselves (or the coaching to implement them) just not being good enough.

Fully on board. But I am sure you agree that in football, you can't really judge a system independent of its execution. I don't want to protect ETH here, but the system. Because a 3-2 Buildup structure isn't some ETH only thing. Inverting wingers aren't an ETH exclusive and the same applies for free 8 player that move into the half spaces. The way ETH has implemented it, doesn't seem to work due to suboptimal player types and yes, he should have stepped back trying to find some temporary solution that suits the majority of the squad more, but the ideas behind what we see, aren't new or dysfunctional per se.

I mean, it's also Ten Hag's job to communicate the plan to the players? If they are misunderstanding his tactical intentions that is also his fault.

I agree. As said above, my stance here isn't protecting ETH as I agree with next to all of the criticism. I just think, a few fans take it too shallow, dismissing tactics as a whole that work for City and Arsenal, partly for a long time. Trying to implement them at Manchester is kind of overdue, but I agree, there isn't much to back the idea that ETH is the one to really do that.

I also didn't call him "dumb" or a "fraud" in my post - there's nothing inherently wrong with setting up a team out of possession in a 4-1-4-1, but there is something very wrong if you expect that one deep-lying midfielder to cover an entire third of the pitch by himself. Maybe the players let him down and either a fullback was supposed to step into midfield or maybe Amad and Bruno should realise that they are completely worthless being pushed forward given Hojlund's pressing shadow - but are you really giving Ten Hag the benefit of the doubt at this point?

I think, it is important to really understand, what the issue is. And while ETH and his current system with the current players is a problem and I am not very optimistic this is going to change, I think it would be a cop-out to let him be the fall guy while for example the players get away. Some of the mistakes we've seen are individual. Getting outfought against Spurs isn't just down to a system. Not pulling your weight off the ball is a problem. Ten Hag doesn't get the benefit of a doubt. He probably should have been replaced last summer but who knows, maybe we tried and there was no viable candidate. We don't know about that. The manager is an important piece. And who is getting the job after ETH is important as well. I've seen enough posts on here, people seemingly think we can bring in anybody to improve. And while that may be correct short term, I am very worried about the long term project. Updating our play is like 7 years overdue - I was ready to go through some pain when it would have meant, we improve as a team. First year we didn't do much in terms of changes and the results were fine. 2nd year he started the reboot and things got bad. I see all that but us being bad at pressing isn't going to go away when ETHs contract is terminated. The successor is key and he will experience the same issues.

This is pure delusion.

Great start

Watch a few tactics clips, almost every decent coach, manager and pundit has been amazed at how poor the tactics that Ten Hag has installed are.

As I said, the tactics can't be judged without the execution. Same applies the other way around. No question that it doesn't work and yes, it looks very shit right now, but many of the things that we do and suffer from aren't ETH exclusives.

Our high press is ridiculously poorly coached. In well coached sides, There is always a trigger, whether it’s a space on the pitch or a specific player. We have neither.

With all due respect, I seriously doubt that you'd be able to detect such a trigger. I agree with your overall point though, our press doesn't seem to be organized too well, biggest issue in my eyes though is the movement of the team. No team presses just with the front-4 and I think, this is where we suffer - it doesn't take much, front 4 a little too eager, back 4 a little too timid and there you go with huge space in the middle. Also the press is partly a little halfhearted and therefor sometimes easy to play through. And once that happens, stuff gets shit very fast. But that applies to all teams who use pressing, it is a built-in risk of that approach.

The depth of our defense means that once the poor press is beaten, it’s off to the races because of the massive gaps in the midfield.

Yes and if ETH intentionally wants his defence to stay deep and his front 4 to be high up the pitch, then I am fully behind you. But I have my doubts that this is the case.

Spacing of the defenders is problematic. Coaching. Dalot pinching in to help in the midfield and thus being out of position whe the turnover happens. Coaching.

When Dalot inverts, other players have to take up positions to not leave us vulnerable. We played with Casemiro and Eriksen lately and Rashford who is also close to a non-factor. Stuff like that is seen working at many many teams, us not doing it right, doesn't mean the ideas are flawed. Also if ETH isn't able to implement them, get rid of him, I am not protecting him - I am just worried that all the talk about the shit tactics will lead to us bringing in another knob who thinks he can play like in the 2000s and we waste even more time.

These are all full internationals who have played in complex systems for previous club coaches and their national sides. They are doing what they have been told to do.

There is no point putting all the blame on one side and take it away from the others. Brainfarts, ball watching, getting outfought, misplacing easy passes surely isn't something the manager is instructing the players with.

It IS tactics. He’s maybe the worst tactical manager we’ve had in the last 50 years. He is a stupid, stupid man. These aren’t harsh words, they are actually true.

Exactly those conclusions are what is worrying me. You've seen "a few tactics clips" and now you think you are in a position to judge tactics as a whole. As I said, there isn't too much in our system that is brandnew and not somewhere else already in place and working fine. Get rid of ETH for not being able to implement things - that is the right reason to do it. Abandoning all those ideas as a whole because we seemingly didn't get it to work will only hurt us in the long run.

 

[Baneofthegame]

I agree, we've seen it multiple times, no question about it. Also no question that it is a problem. One thing I am not convinced though: how do we know that ETH specifically intends his DM to be alone in acres of space? Again, I agree, it happenend and it did way too often but I always think, the issue is spacing of the players with the front-4 a little too eager and the back-4 a little too timid. I mean, even if we assume that ETH is dumb enough to integrate this fault into his system, do we really think, all his coaches just let it slide?

No question about it. And I am fully on board, that it is unacceptable, how little development there seemingly is and was and at this point in time, I have nothing that keeps me connected to ETH other than being a little worried, who we bring in next.

Fully on board. But I am sure you agree that in football, you can't really judge a system independent of its execution. I don't want to protect ETH here, but the system. Because a 3-2 Buildup structure isn't some ETH only thing. Inverting wingers aren't an ETH exclusive and the same applies for free 8 player that move into the half spaces. The way ETH has implemented it, doesn't seem to work due to suboptimal player types and yes, he should have stepped back trying to find some temporary solution that suits the majority of the squad more, but the ideas behind what we see, aren't new or dysfunctional per se.

I agree. As said above, my stance here isn't protecting ETH as I agree with next to all of the criticism. I just think, a few fans take it too shallow, dismissing tactics as a whole that work for City and Arsenal, partly for a long time. Trying to implement them at Manchester is kind of overdue, but I agree, there isn't much to back the idea that ETH is the one to really do that.

I think, it is important to really understand, what the issue is. And while ETH and his current system with the current players is a problem and I am not very optimistic this is going to change, I think it would be a cop-out to let him be the fall guy while for example the players get away. Some of the mistakes we've seen are individual. Getting outfought against Spurs isn't just down to a system. Not pulling your weight off the ball is a problem. Ten Hag doesn't get the benefit of a doubt. He probably should have been replaced last summer but who knows, maybe we tried and there was no viable candidate. We don't know about that. The manager is an important piece. And who is getting the job after ETH is important as well. I've seen enough posts on here, people seemingly think we can bring in anybody to improve. And while that may be correct short term, I am very worried about the long term project. Updating our play is like 7 years overdue - I was ready to go through some pain when it would have meant, we improve as a team. First year we didn't do much in terms of changes and the results were fine. 2nd year he started the reboot and things got bad. I see all that but us being bad at pressing isn't going to go away when ETHs contract is terminated. The successor is key and he will experience the same issues.

Great start

As I said, the tactics can't be judged without the execution. Same applies the other way around. No question that it doesn't work and yes, it looks very shit right now, but many of the things that we do and suffer from aren't ETH exclusives.

With all due respect, I seriously doubt that you'd be able to detect such a trigger. I agree with your overall point though, our press doesn't seem to be organized too well, biggest issue in my eyes though is the movement of the team. No team presses just with the front-4 and I think, this is where we suffer - it doesn't take much, front 4 a little too eager, back 4 a little too timid and there you go with huge space in the middle. Also the press is partly a little halfhearted and therefor sometimes easy to play through. And once that happens, stuff gets shit very fast. But that applies to all teams who use pressing, it is a built-in risk of that approach.

Yes and if ETH intentionally wants his defence to stay deep and his front 4 to be high up the pitch, then I am fully behind you. But I have my doubts that this is the case.

When Dalot inverts, other players have to take up positions to not leave us vulnerable. We played with Casemiro and Eriksen lately and Rashford who is also close to a non-factor. Stuff like that is seen working at many many teams, us not doing it right, doesn't mean the ideas are flawed. Also if ETH isn't able to implement them, get rid of him, I am not protecting him - I am just worried that all the talk about the shit tactics will lead to us bringing in another knob who thinks he can play like in the 2000s and we waste even more time.

There is no point putting all the blame on one side and take it away from the others. Brainfarts, ball watching, getting outfought, misplacing easy passes surely isn't something the manager is instructing the players with.

Exactly those conclusions are what is worrying me. You've seen "a few tactics clips" and now you think you are in a position to judge tactics as a whole. As I said, there isn't too much in our system that is brandnew and not somewhere else already in place and working fine. Get rid of ETH for not being able to implement things - that is the right reason to do it. Abandoning all those ideas as a whole because we seemingly didn't get it to work will only hurt us in the long run.

The problem is there is always now a reason why his tactics aren’t working, injuries, constant line up changes, players not following his instruction.

That image above has been seen so many times over last season and many times in the same game, so either the players are consistently not following his instructions or this is by design, if it’s the latter it’s actually insane and if it’s the former he may as well go anyway as the players aren’t listening or can’t fathom his complex tactics.

So while I don’t fault him completely, he must see as a coach that this approach is not working.

 

[DSG]

I agree, we've seen it multiple times, no question about it. Also no question that it is a problem. One thing I am not convinced though: how do we know that ETH specifically intends his DM to be alone in acres of space? Again, I agree, it happenend and it did way too often but I always think, the issue is spacing of the players with the front-4 a little too eager and the back-4 a little too timid. I mean, even if we assume that ETH is dumb enough to integrate this fault into his system, do we really think, all his coaches just let it slide?

No question about it. And I am fully on board, that it is unacceptable, how little development there seemingly is and was and at this point in time, I have nothing that keeps me connected to ETH other than being a little worried, who we bring in next.

Fully on board. But I am sure you agree that in football, you can't really judge a system independent of its execution. I don't want to protect ETH here, but the system. Because a 3-2 Buildup structure isn't some ETH only thing. Inverting wingers aren't an ETH exclusive and the same applies for free 8 player that move into the half spaces. The way ETH has implemented it, doesn't seem to work due to suboptimal player types and yes, he should have stepped back trying to find some temporary solution that suits the majority of the squad more, but the ideas behind what we see, aren't new or dysfunctional per se.

I agree. As said above, my stance here isn't protecting ETH as I agree with next to all of the criticism. I just think, a few fans take it too shallow, dismissing tactics as a whole that work for City and Arsenal, partly for a long time. Trying to implement them at Manchester is kind of overdue, but I agree, there isn't much to back the idea that ETH is the one to really do that.

I think, it is important to really understand, what the issue is. And while ETH and his current system with the current players is a problem and I am not very optimistic this is going to change, I think it would be a cop-out to let him be the fall guy while for example the players get away. Some of the mistakes we've seen are individual. Getting outfought against Spurs isn't just down to a system. Not pulling your weight off the ball is a problem. Ten Hag doesn't get the benefit of a doubt. He probably should have been replaced last summer but who knows, maybe we tried and there was no viable candidate. We don't know about that. The manager is an important piece. And who is getting the job after ETH is important as well. I've seen enough posts on here, people seemingly think we can bring in anybody to improve. And while that may be correct short term, I am very worried about the long term project. Updating our play is like 7 years overdue - I was ready to go through some pain when it would have meant, we improve as a team. First year we didn't do much in terms of changes and the results were fine. 2nd year he started the reboot and things got bad. I see all that but us being bad at pressing isn't going to go away when ETHs contract is terminated. The successor is key and he will experience the same issues.

Great start

As I said, the tactics can't be judged without the execution. Same applies the other way around. No question that it doesn't work and yes, it looks very shit right now, but many of the things that we do and suffer from aren't ETH exclusives.

With all due respect, I seriously doubt that you'd be able to detect such a trigger. I agree with your overall point though, our press doesn't seem to be organized too well, biggest issue in my eyes though is the movement of the team. No team presses just with the front-4 and I think, this is where we suffer - it doesn't take much, front 4 a little too eager, back 4 a little too timid and there you go with huge space in the middle. Also the press is partly a little halfhearted and therefor sometimes easy to play through. And once that happens, stuff gets shit very fast. But that applies to all teams who use pressing, it is a built-in risk of that approach.

Yes and if ETH intentionally wants his defence to stay deep and his front 4 to be high up the pitch, then I am fully behind you. But I have my doubts that this is the case.

When Dalot inverts, other players have to take up positions to not leave us vulnerable. We played with Casemiro and Eriksen lately and Rashford who is also close to a non-factor. Stuff like that is seen working at many many teams, us not doing it right, doesn't mean the ideas are flawed. Also if ETH isn't able to implement them, get rid of him, I am not protecting him - I am just worried that all the talk about the shit tactics will lead to us bringing in another knob who thinks he can play like in the 2000s and we waste even more time.

There is no point putting all the blame on one side and take it away from the others. Brainfarts, ball watching, getting outfought, misplacing easy passes surely isn't something the manager is instructing the players with.

Exactly those conclusions are what is worrying me. You've seen "a few tactics clips" and now you think you are in a position to judge tactics as a whole. As I said, there isn't too much in our system that is brandnew and not somewhere else already in place and working fine. Get rid of ETH for not being able to implement things - that is the right reason to do it. Abandoning all those ideas as a whole because we seemingly didn't get it to work will only hurt us in the long run.

I appreciate your nuance. You’re saying the tactics may not be “flawed” just a lack of execution, or, ETH has been unable to fully implement his vision, and that is a sackable offense. Sure, I suppose I agree with you.

Here’s my issue. He’s had 11 weeks of training and probably, at 20 hours a week, over 200 hours to get their positioning and tactics spot on. That doesn’t include last season. He’s worked with Deligt, Martinez, Antony, Eriksen, and Onana before. He’s had most of these players for two seasons. They are doing exactly what he says. How can he simplify tactics for the FA Cup final, they can follow those tactics, but they refuse / all players too dumb / individual mistakes in game after game after game because his tactics are fine? Impossible.

It’s the tactics. It’s not just me saying this, it’s literally every respected footballer, manager and pundit. The Caf has been talking about his poor tactics for months now.

 

[golden_blunder]

Months? Some of us have called out the non existent midfield, being able to drive a bus through our defences, players positioning, poor decisions etc etc for more than a year. If any players don’t understand, then he’s had bloody long enough to coach those patterns into their brains. His coaching methods are not working at this level and he is too damn proud or ignorant to change. His ego is the problem.

 

[mardika]

Yeah, lets just assume, that the manager is just dumb, right? Because thats what made him earn more in most of the posters in here combined. Because he is dumb. Also good to see so many being ready to jump onto that genius conclusion. Is there any chance, you might have considered, that the front 4 in your freeze-frame has pushed up too much or at the wrong moment? Is there a chance, that maybe the defense hasn't pushed up when they should have had to?

Trying to push Porto too high with this line up is a valid point and criticism towards Ten Hag, but lets not invent fictional stories on top of it. I know, the "dumb" stuff and "fraud" stuff is popular these days and therefor attractive to jump on to but whats the point!?

Well said. I have the same criticism, the issue isn't the tactics per se, it is either the managers stubbornness to accept, that it doesn't really works with the players he wants to have in the lineup.

When you want to build up pressure and the opposition defends with 10 men behind the ball, then of course, it is a situation that can occur. Also in times of pressing, teams have to work together and move as a team. That means, everybody is supposed to move more up and down, so the distances between players do not fluctuate as much as they do for us since last season. It is an organisation and synchronization thing plus having a team that is more on the below-average side in terms of workrate and intensity.

He is dumb. How else you call it?? His tactic has been exposed for god knows by how many managers and how many times.... last season andoni iraola came to Old Trafford and beat us 0-3 in the post match press interview he dissected ten hags tactic and explained how he dealt with it. This season arne slot came to OT and beat us 0-3, again in the post match he dissected ten hags tactic and explained us how to deal with it. They said same thing: ATTACK THE SPACE LEFT BEHIND. So thats it. 2 newbies came to OT and exposed his "tactic". The fact that this bald man couldnt see the fault of his tactic while everyone and his nan could is baffling, so there either hes incapable of coming up with new idea or hes just plain dumb.

 

[MadDogg]

Fully on board. But I am sure you agree that in football, you can't really judge a system independent of its execution. I don't want to protect ETH here, but the system. Because a 3-2 Buildup structure isn't some ETH only thing. Inverting wingers aren't an ETH exclusive and the same applies for free 8 player that move into the half spaces. The way ETH has implemented it, doesn't seem to work due to suboptimal player types and yes, he should have stepped back trying to find some temporary solution that suits the majority of the squad more, but the ideas behind what we see, aren't new or dysfunctional per se.

It's very easy to implement the base system and structure. So at that level, sure, other managers are implementing similar things and having a lot more success. Hell, you or I could go in and tell the players to play in that sort of structure. You could use this same excuse for every single manager out there when they fail, saying that "but Manager B is doing something similar and it's working fine for him".

It's the details that determine how successful it is. The specific instructions, the positioning, the triggers for when to make what movements, etc. That is where there is systematic failure throughout our entire team. It is far too wide spread, over too long a period of time, with too many different players, for it to be put down to the players not being able to do what ETH wants. It's much, much more likely that there are huge flaws in what ETH is instructing and it's leaving the players in an impossible situation.

Does that mean the players don't take any blame at all? Of course not. But they are being set up to fail by the manager, not the other way around.

 

[RedinIndia]

This might have been mentioned before but the whole reason we are getting found out is that we have a single DM who's getting over run.

Almost every other team has either a pivot in the center of the midfield or a wingback inverting into the DM position to strengthen the play in the middle of the field.

We've got a single #6 and two more advanced midfielders. One of whom can never track back quick enough and the other runs around like a headless chicken in Bruno disrupting the formation totally.

This combined with the reliance on the fullbacks to bomb upwards is catching us out big time in those 3v3 positions which often happen when we do inevitably turn over the ball in the middle of the field (none of our guys are adept at keeping possession).

You can have a possession oriented style, you can have a pressing oriented style. And you can have a counter attacking oriented style of football.

You can't attempt to assimilate all three of those styles into one team and still be looking to have a coherent tactic.

 

[Longlivekeano]

I think we lack players of very very good quality. I will only keep mainoo, Garnacho and hojlund. That’s it

 

[devilish]

Months? Some of us have called out the non existent midfield, being able to drive a bus through our defences, players positioning, poor decisions etc etc for more than a year. If any players don’t understand, then he’s had bloody long enough to coach those patterns into their brains. His coaching methods are not working at this level and he is too damn proud or ignorant to change. His ego is the problem.

This, This and this

 

[red_de_pologne]

I think we lack players of very very good quality. I will only keep mainoo, Garnacho and hojlund. That’s it

We could struggle with just three players.

Also, harsh on Antony.

 

[vva]

While I believe that ETH is not up to this job anymore, the main problems are still caused by recruitment and quality of our players. The recruitment is below standard very long time.
Even last summer, only Mazraoui is worth in risk and reward perception for senior squad. And, Chido obi Martin/Sekou Kone are worth for building up in the long term.
The rest of squad that ETH and recruitment brought in keep adding more complex and difficulty problem.

 

[ArmaDino]

This was posted in the ETH thread, so surprised it didn't make it's way into this one.

Rene tore apart ETH's tactics and explains why we always look so vulnerable. A very damning indictment of our tactical setup and our coaching in general.

 

[big_jeffstar]

just came here to say i watched most of the Newcastle/Everton game yesterday, and it was very similar to all of our games this year and last.. back and forward basketball football for 90 minutes, strangely though the commentators loved it, said how entertaining it was, how competitive they both were... funny that isn't it?, I wonder if the pundits will be lining up to talk about how badly coached they both are? .. my guess is no

 

[golden_blunder]

just came here to say i watched most of the Newcastle/Everton game yesterday, and it was very similar to all of our games this year and last.. back and forward basketball football for 90 minutes, strangely though the commentators loved it, said how entertaining it was, how competitive they both were... funny that isn't it?, I wonder if the pundits will be lining up to talk about how badly coached they both are? .. my guess is no

Irrelevant. What’s relevant is his number of losses, goal difference, etc. that’s why HE gets criticism, it’s not good enough

 

[NZT-One]

The problem is there is always now a reason why his tactics aren’t working, injuries, constant line up changes, players not following his instruction.

That image above has been seen so many times over last season and many times in the same game, so either the players are consistently not following his instructions or this is by design, if it’s the latter it’s actually insane and if it’s the former he may as well go anyway as the players aren’t listening or can’t fathom his complex tactics.

So while I don’t fault him completely, he must see as a coach that this approach is not working.

Completely agree. And again, I consider that a reason to get sacked for ETH. Just, please for the love of god, make sure, it is a technically, modern manager and not some plonker. And those are still out there.

I appreciate your nuance. You’re saying the tactics may not be “flawed” just a lack of execution, or, ETH has been unable to fully implement his vision, and that is a sackable offense. Sure, I suppose I agree with you.

Thanks

Here’s my issue. He’s had 11 weeks of training and probably, at 20 hours a week, over 200 hours to get their positioning and tactics spot on. That doesn’t include last season. He’s worked with Deligt, Martinez, Antony, Eriksen, and Onana before. He’s had most of these players for two seasons. They are doing exactly what he says. How can he simplify tactics for the FA Cup final, they can follow those tactics, but they refuse / all players too dumb / individual mistakes in game after game after game because his tactics are fine? Impossible.

Well the FA Cup final is a bit of an exception, given that he really choose the simplify the game plan in this game. He set us up with a rather deep starting position which helped to prevent those huge spaces to form and from then on, he made sure that we are sharp on the transition. Thats not looking down on it, it is fairly simple but effective game plan and you can win world cup finals and champions league finals with it. But if that is all you can, there are chances that you don't advance so far. I guess, this is why I am a more hesitant than others - we were at a place where we were compact and defending decently and went for counters with Ole. That is Ole ball. But we lacked behind our rivals and we weren't able to make the next step. In ETHs first season, he abandoned his ideas after two bad games at the start, he continued Ole ball with minimal changes, and he got results with it. The wheels started to come off when he tried to bring us to the next level. Again - he doesn't seem to be the one to reach that goal and for all we know the reason is that he isn't able to communicate his ideas effectively and that he may ask too much in too little time. But the step he tried to make, will have to be made eventually. Because our rivals are already using those things to their advantage.

It’s the tactics. It’s not just me saying this, it’s literally every respected footballer, manager and pundit. The Caf has been talking about his poor tactics for months now.

Months? Some of us have called out the non existent midfield, being able to drive a bus through our defences, players positioning, poor decisions etc etc for more than a year. If any players don’t understand, then he’s had bloody long enough to coach those patterns into their brains. His coaching methods are not working at this level and he is too damn proud or ignorant to change. His ego is the problem.

Just to be sure - I was one of the lone critics after ETHs first season, pointing out that there hasn't been much change yet. Back then people were praising and celebrating the guy. I am fully aware of what he did and didn't do in terms of reaching expectations and I am not catching a bullet for him - I just want to underline that we have to continue the path he started and not revert back.

 

[Marwood]

just came here to say i watched most of the Newcastle/Everton game yesterday, and it was very similar to all of our games this year and last.. back and forward basketball football for 90 minutes, strangely though the commentators loved it, said how entertaining it was, how competitive they both were... funny that isn't it?, I wonder if the pundits will be lining up to talk about how badly coached they both are? .. my guess is no

But I don't think commentators ever say we're boring. That's not the criticism. Even midweek they were saying how entertaining the game was.

If Newcastle conceded 3 in 20% of their games they'd for sure be getting criticised.

 

[DJ_21]

I think we need to sell Rashford. He’s the only one that’s been under the past managers and if he’s not following instructions then it ruins the team cohesion.

 

[Hammondo]

I'm not sure we can say his tactics are not a problem when he cares so little but central midfield, the most important part of the pitch. Where others stack and focus their formations to dominate it, we run away from it.

 

[ThanksBoss26]

Sadly, hard to argue with the title of the thread at this point.

 

[Marcus]

We are not wide open today and play is more stable because we are not mindlessly pressing with both fullbacks up the pitch. Who knew? Bloody EtH. Now you finally wake up your idea when the nail is in the coffin of your United career when the overwhelming majority of United fans want you sacked. Stubborn buffoon.

 

[#07]

We are not wide open today and play is more stable because we are not mindlessly pressing with both fullbacks up the pitch. Who knew? Bloody EtH. Now you finally wake up your idea when the nail is in the coffin of your United career when the overwhelming majority of United fans want you sacked. Stubborn buffoon.

I agree.

The truth is nothing we have seen today couldn't have been coached by Ole or Mourinho or even David Moyes. Its not genius to coach your team to retreat into a solid shape and be hard to play through.

The reason so many of us were taken in by Ten Hag was the promise of Ajax football. Three seasons in and instead of that we've gone back to basics.

I'll put my hands up as one of those who was bellyaching about getting Conte in. But, frankly, if I knew this is where we'd end up after hundreds of millions spent...

...Conte can coach this style of football much better and more successfully than Ten Hag can.

 

[golden_blunder]

I’m at least impressed that someone has told him that sometimes you need to go back to basics

 

[thisisnottaken1]

I’m at least impressed that someone has told him that sometimes you need to go back to basics

That’s the thing, he does sometimes pull the finger out. But he always reverts back to chaos ball after.

 

[NZT-One]

That’s the thing, he does sometimes pull the finger out. But he always reverts back to chaos ball after.

I think, while it most likely would be sensible decision to calm the waters down and to instill a bit of confidence into the team, I think, he knows, that this isn't his objective. If we wanted to stick to the basics, we might as well have given Ole a 15 year contract. I think, this is also something that comes through in his interviews, he wants us to get better than the basics. But undeniably, the path seems awfully long, longer than anticipated and longer as other teams have seen it take.

 

[KrasHammerhand]

Can we fire him now?

 

[DevilRed]

There’s really no more excuses now. We’ve spent a fortune on getting his players. We have actually regressed as a result