We are an awfully coached team

Raven said:
What about your boy's heroic draw with Club Brugges though?
Click to expand...
One again performance metric rather than result. Psg played well, but wasn’t clinical enough. Not sure what this got to do with this conversation though.

Shiva87 said:
Did you actually watch the game today? City was exposed to so many counters. They would have lost today if Southampton showed some quality in those moments. Yes, they had positional advantage on the pitch but that was about it. They definitely didn't perform better!
Click to expand...
yes, I did watch the game. Southampton pressed well and stopped city from building from the back like they typically do. Ederson wasn’t as busy in goal and both side lack predator instinct, in particular man city as grelish and cancelo would put in some good crosses without no one at the end of it. A game like this showcase why the lack of natural striker will hurt Manchester city a lot this season. Not sure why pep put Jesus out wide, so perhaps it was just a bad tactical decision. However, if Jesus and Torres are Manchester city go to strikers, then that problem we saw today will continue unless similiar to last season, the midfielder contributes by supporting runs into the box.
 
Amadaeus said:
City played mid week and rested some of their top players in De Bryune, Mahrez, and foden. They still played much better football then what we produced when we played Southampton. You can also make an argument that city was hurt by not playing without a striker this game, but then I know some United fan will counter argue that we have been playing without a midfield even though Fred and mctominay are natural midfielder. So, I guess what city weakness is without an striker is similiar to our weakness in in holding mid role. Regardless, this argument isn’t about result, but moreso about performance and it is easy to see which team performed better against Southampton,
Click to expand...

Which team performed better? City had 1 shot on target and failed to score. I could easily argue that we performed better.
 
Shiva87 said:
Okay. I don't really understand this 'reliance on individual brilliance stuff'. Yes we do. And we are coached to create situations for our players to show their individual brilliance.

Maybe coaching can be better, maybe not. But our results for the last 2 seasons clearly show that we over performed compared to the relative quality of our squad (when looked at man to man against Chelsea, Liverpool, City, Spurs and even Leicester at one point).

Its not a crime in football for good players to show individual brilliance. Also, it's not like Jose's teams where the whole team defends and then relies on 2-3 moments to show brilliance.

We are very direct and our forwards are encouraged to try the exceptional passes or shots when they can. Thats also a part of coaching.

Where were all these 'moments of individual brilliance' under our previous managers. You think Ole has nothing to do with it?

And, btw don't say he has a better squad because literally that can be said only for 4 games, and no one wins a trophy in the first 4 games of a season.
Click to expand...
Because we have a history under Ole of overplaying players until they're too tired to perform and our form struggles?

And the fact that we've no alternative when the stars aren't performing?

Funny how van Gaal and Jose doesn't have those moment of individual brilliance like you mention and they still manage to average around the same points in the league as Ole.

I just want Ole to have a backup option to when Bruno/Pogba isn't playing well but apparently that seems to be asking for too much.
 
Amadaeus said:
One again performance metric rather than result. Psg played well, but wasn’t clinical enough. Not sure what this got to do with this conversation though.


yes, I did watch the game. Southampton pressed well and stopped city from building from the back like they typically do. Ederson wasn’t as busy in goal and both side lack predator instinct, in particular man city as grelish and cancelo would put in some good crosses without no one at the end of it. A game like this showcase why the lack of natural striker will hurt Manchester city a lot this season. Not sure why pep put Jesus out wide, so perhaps it was just a bad tactical decision. However, if Jesus and Torres are Manchester city go to strikers, then that problem we saw today will continue unless similiar to last season, the midfielder contributes by supporting runs into the box.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, Man City were so much better than us against Southampton with their 0 goals and 1 shot on goal. Why weren't PSG clinical? Actually, I suppose they only had Messi, Neymar and Mbappe up top.
 
Amadaeus said:
yes, I did watch the game. Southampton pressed well and stopped city from building from the back like they typically do. Ederson wasn’t as busy in goal and both side lack predator instinct, in particular man city as grelish and cancelo would put in some good crosses without no one at the end of it. A game like this showcase why the lack of natural striker will hurt Manchester city a lot this season. Not sure why pep put Jesus out wide, so perhaps it was just a bad tactical decision. However, if Jesus and Torres are Manchester city go to strikers, then that problem we saw today will continue unless similiar to last season, the midfielder contributes by supporting runs into the box.
Click to expand...

Agree with all that. Then I guess our only disagreement is that they performed better than united.
 
I thought the patterns of play were good in that game.

Other teams can learn those from Soto. Their passing all the way to final 3rd was pretty slick.
 
elmo said:
I just want Ole to have a backup option to when Bruno/Pogba isn't playing well but apparently that seems to be asking for too much.
Click to expand...

That's a fair criticism. This is the nuance that is hard to find on this forum these days. He needs to make subs to give others a chance when these two aren't performing well.

But in all honesty, he didn't have many options. And if Van De Beek wasn't performing well in training (getting bullied of the ball) then I understand his reluctance last season. This season, there will be no excuse. There are many options.
 
Amadaeus said:
City played mid week and rested some of their top players in De Bryune, Mahrez, and foden. They still played much better football then what we produced when we played Southampton. You can also make an argument that city was hurt by not playing without a striker this game, but then I know some United fan will counter argue that we have been playing without a midfield even though Fred and mctominay are natural midfielder. So, I guess what city weakness is without an striker is similiar to our weakness in in holding mid role. Regardless, this argument isn’t about result, but moreso about performance and it is easy to see which team performed better against Southampton,
Click to expand...

Excuses. Excuses and all I see is yet more excuses.

They were at home and managed 1 shot on target. Pathetic result and performance. You're attempting to dress up a turd.
 
Beachryan said:
The more I think about our squad and the deficiencies in coaching...is there a 'system' where it doesn't really matter?

Pep, Klopp and Tuchel are all about the system, buying players that fit it, adhering to it and being disicplined. But is there another way to success? Go more down the motivated, physically powerful talented group of players that through ability and will can win matches? That feels to me like what we're after here. And tbh it would make sense for Ole to like that - it's how many of Fergie's teams were built. Excellent defence, excellent attack some people in the middle who sometimes connect the two. It's less predictable, less controlled but if you get the right personalities and couple them with the right fitness levels it might work.

I think that's what we have to hope for with Ole and these players. Fred and Pogba are never going to be Xavi and Iniesta. But they can still be an overwhelming force.
Click to expand...
There is no other way if your rivals have squad on the same level. The differences in quality are not playing a bit role. The system, coaching, however you call it do make a difference.
I do agree with your description of midfield under Fergie, since Ronaldo departure I felt like he didn't care that much about what happens in central areas. I think football changed around that time, more weight was put on midfield and it seems this trend never got to United - and Ole is another example of that.

Shiva87 said:
We are very direct and our forwards are encouraged to try the exceptional passes or shots when they can. Thats also a part of coaching.

Where were all these 'moments of individual brilliance' under our previous managers. You think Ole has nothing to do with it?
Click to expand...
Following this logic and using extreme example, "pass it to Ronaldo" can be labeled as coaching. You don't need a whole staff to come up with instructions like that, but at the same time, since we do have a bunch of people hired to do the coaching, I'd expect our game to improve with time / games.
Improvement under Ole comes from buying and developing players, he gets all the credit for Shaw, McTominay, Fred, Bruno, Greenwood etc. But that's about it, we're still playing very rigid, simple football. It doesn't work well against well organized teams.
Nothing wrong with relying on individuals to win you games, coaching is required to make a better use of them.

Ole has built a good squad, so in my eyes if we win because of individual brilliance then kudos to him. But I'm pretty sure we're not winning the next Wolves game and once that happens the manager is to blame. I think it's fair.
 
The Boy said:
There were three changes to the title in about an hour yesterday morning, they were:

"Moanchester United are an awfully supported team"
"The modmins apologise for the title edit that implied the moaners were moaning and now fully accept that Ole is worse than Hitler"
"Sack Ole, sell Ronaldo, appoint Ted Lasso"

The second one was my favourite, this thread needed some light relief and @Wibble duly served it up!
Click to expand...
That is pretty good.
 
Shiva87 said:
That's a fair criticism. This is the nuance that is hard to find on this forum these days. He needs to make subs to give others a chance when these two aren't performing well.

But in all honesty, he didn't have many options. And if Van De Beek wasn't performing well in training (getting bullied of the ball) then I understand his reluctance last season. This season, there will be no excuse. There are many options.
Click to expand...
There is the issue right there: somebody talks about a backup option and you immediately look for other players. That isn't what the user meant (i assume). He meant that it would be good if would have a few structures in place to be able to score when our brightest players aren't up to their best.

Nobody was saying that we are the only team in the world to make use of individual talent, that would be stupid especially seeing the talent we have in the team. But todays football isn't only all about individual players or how would you explain the success (especially in creating chances) of teams like Leeds or Brighton last season. Our competitors have that plus great individuals. Sure, that doesn't guarantee wins 10 out of 10 but having these things in place surely increases your chances of success. Hence the trophies Chelsea, City and Liverpool were bringing in. Man United can have success without these things, but why make it harder than it needs to be? Why is it alright to ignore stuff that can increase performances for teams with lesser players?
 
GaryLifo said:
Been a fan for 40 years. Love Ole and always will.

This said, I just am not seeing it after nearly 3 years. Squad quality is hugely better but we start most games badly and I'm sat there scratching my head as to why I rarely see us dominate the game for more than 15 minute spells.

I'm already pretty certain we will not finish higher than 3rd this season and absolutely will not win any of the other trophies.

He's done a great job of turning us back on course from the end of the Jose era but I can't see it getting any better than 3rd/4th.

Just my opinion.
Click to expand...
Are you a local fan?
 
Amadaeus said:
One again performance metric rather than result. Psg played well, but wasn’t clinical enough. Not sure what this got to do with this conversation though.


yes, I did watch the game. Southampton pressed well and stopped city from building from the back like they typically do. Ederson wasn’t as busy in goal and both side lack predator instinct, in particular man city as grelish and cancelo would put in some good crosses without no one at the end of it. A game like this showcase why the lack of natural striker will hurt Manchester city a lot this season. Not sure why pep put Jesus out wide, so perhaps it was just a bad tactical decision. However, if Jesus and Torres are Manchester city go to strikers, then that problem we saw today will continue unless similiar to last season, the midfielder contributes by supporting runs into the box.
Click to expand...
i checked now and realized that brugge had more shot and shot on target than psg.
 
Amadaeus said:
City played mid week and rested some of their top players in De Bryune, Mahrez, and foden. They still played much better football then what we produced when we played Southampton. You can also make an argument that city was hurt by not playing without a striker this game, but then I know some United fan will counter argue that we have been playing without a midfield even though Fred and mctominay are natural midfielder. So, I guess what city weakness is without an striker is similiar to our weakness in in holding mid role. Regardless, this argument isn’t about result, but moreso about performance and it is easy to see which team performed better against Southampton,
Click to expand...
Is jesus not a striker anymore? swore he started the match
 
meamth said:
Atletico Madrid didn't win with 10 men today. Well 'drilled' team also.

But its okay.
Click to expand...

They won La Liga last year. They get a few excuses, same.for city, you don't get leeway when your entire existence as a manager has been mediocre at best with no trophies
 
Flytan said:
They get a few excuses, same.for city, you don't get leeway when your entire existence as a manager has been mediocre at best with no trophies
Click to expand...

Good facts.
 
City last 3 years umpteen trophies. They are allowed a bad game every now and again. Wish we had their record.
 
frostbite said:
Yes, these managers had won things before 50, actually much earlier. For example, Sir Matt Busby was born in 1909, won first division in 1952, ie at 43, but he also won the FA cup in 1948 when he was only 39. SAF won the European Cup with Aberdeen when he was 42, the Scottish top division at 39. Wenger won the French first division with Monaco when he was 39.

Most of those who win after 50 also won things when they were younger. If anyone knows of any "late bloomers" who won nothing before 50... I'd be interested to know!
Click to expand...

Interesting to see that they all won their first titles in their own national leagues. I guess it's natural to remain (or return) there at the start of their managerial careers before tackling bigger clubs.

I know nobody rates the Norwegian league, but Ole won the league there at 38 and 39 with a team that had never won the league before (the national cup at 40).
Molde also won the league both times the following season Ole left for a bigger gig, so one could argue that they still saw the fruits of his labor in building a long-term squad.

He's 48 now, will be 49 in February, so remains to see if he can bag a big trophy outside of his national league before he turns 50. :)
 
wolvored said:
City last 3 years umpteen trophies. They are allowed a bad game every now and again. Wish we had their record.
Click to expand...
Rome wasn't built in a day.

Let's keep sacking managers until someone gives us instant success.

City and Chelsea are husks. We hopefully are different but listening to some of our fans, I'm not sure.
 
Last edited:
Olecurls99 said:
Rome wasn't built in a day.

Let's keep sacking managers until someone gives us instant success.

City and Chelsea are husks. We hopefully are different but listening to some of our fans, I'm not sure.
Click to expand...

How many times have you repeated these sentences in front of a mirror till you fully memorized them ?
 
el3mel said:
How many times have you repeated these sentences in front of a mirror till you fully memorized them ?
Click to expand...
It is called self affirmations isn't it? :)

He is partly right though, I also think, that instant success is not the norm but more the exception. On the other hand, using that phrase hints a complaint about impatiency, which I feel is pretty much out of place right now because we are the third year of Oles tenure.

Lets pretend the unthinkable happens and we have to go for a new coach and we chose for example Potter then I am more than happy to give him another 2 years. All he needs to do is show some signs that it is worth giving him time and that he isn't out of place in a top club (something Moyes unfortunately failed at).
I agree with the Ole supporters, Ole showed very good things, but picking players and creating a good atmosphere are things the club should establish, even guarantee to some degree, no matter who the manager is. Ole seems to have been the right man at the right time to push the reset-button. He helped to re-level the playing field, now he should be evaluated just like any manager at a top club would. He earned himself the right to be compared with them

The good thing is, I have a strong feeling that the majority of fans agrees with that stance. Not knowing him as a person but I have a slight suspicion even he would agree with that.

*edited to make sure, I don't get misunderstood
 
Last edited:
GaryLifo said:
No but my first United game attended was in 1987. I don't go anywhere near as much as I once did, but living 200+ miles from Manchester and being an old fella with a family these days make it unlikely.
Click to expand...
Cheers mate, lovely to hear!
 
NZT-One said:
It is called self affirmations isn't it? :)

He is right though, I also think, that instant success is not the norm but more the exception. On the other hand, using that phrase hints a complaint about impatiency. And I think, that doesn't fit here. Lets pretend the unthinkable happens and we have to go for a new coach and we chose for example Potter then I am more than happy to give him 2 years. All he needs to do is show some signs that it is worth giving him time and that he isn't out of place in a top club (something Moyes unfortunately failed at).
I agree with the Ole supporters, Ole showed very good things, but picking players and creating a good atmosphere are things the club should establish, even guarantee to some degree, no matter who the manager is. Ole seems to have been the right man at the right time to push the reset-button. He helped to re-level the playing field, now he should be evaluated just like any manager at a top club would. He earned himself the right to be compared with them

The good thing is, I have a strong feeling that the majority of fans agrees with that stance. Not knowing him as a person but I have a slight suspicion even he would agree with that.
Click to expand...

No one is asking for "instant success". This is bollocks. This squad has been built in 2.5 already, and now it's time for it to start winning major trophies. Ridiculous to blame fans for daring to expect success from the manager in his 3rd full season at the club, 3rd !
 
Sultan said:
Ronaldo took a position alongside manager Ole Gunnar Solskjaer when he was substituted in midweek. He also did similar against France when he went off injured.

https://www.sportbible.com/football...me-portugal-coach-in-euro-2016-final-20200629
Click to expand...
Well standing next to somebody and being on the manager team certainly isn't the exact same thing but of course a player of Ronaldos stature is allowed everything and rightly so, the more useful input the better, it isn't like I wouldn't want to know what he thought about Tuesday. Anyway I only hope, that we don't mix roles, Ronaldo is supposed to be a player who follows the instructions of the manager, I don't really think it is a good idea to mix that. Especially because I feel Ronaldos standing could lead to internal struggles in case of different opinions. (Don't want to indicate that you would like that idea, it's just my 2 cents on that topic.
 
Olecurls99 said:
Rome wasn't built in a day.

Let's keep sacking managers until someone gives us instant success.

City and Chelsea are husks. We hopefully are different but listening to some of our fans, I'm not sure.
Click to expand...
Or lets keep hiring ex players and win feck all..well because its the 'Utd way'. Would sooner have Citys or Chelseas success over the last 8 years and their ruthfullness to change when it not working. Fergie was a one off. That wont happen again in the modern era. Ole, for all he wants to be Fergie, wont ever get anywhere near.
 
wolvored said:
Or lets keep hiring ex players and win feck all..well because its the 'Utd way'. Would sooner have Citys or Chelseas success over the last 8 years and their ruthfullness to change when it not working. Fergie was a one off. That wont happen again in the modern era. Ole, for all he wants to be Fergie, wont ever get anywhere near.
Click to expand...

That's the best thing about Ole. He's a club legend for you guys that it makes it possible for him to lower the standards of your fanbase.

Big clubs decline when the fanbase lower their standards. It's what happened to us at Arsenal because we keep lowering our standards over the years.

We're happy to be in the top 4 for years until suddenly we are out of it and it looks impossible to climb back in to top 4.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.