We are an awfully coached team

gajender said:
Problem with this is both managers were clearly in decline we haven't actually tried bringing in a Manager who has been on Rise maybe for once we do that and see how it works.
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I have heard this argument many times when Sir Alex was even the manager that his coaching was not to the standard of others in Europe. Yet, he won the Champions League twice and was in the final on 2 occasions. Could have won more but some circumstances went against him during his time.

It's an odd statement to say with experience coaches decline. Probably their mentality changes and the way to treat the new generation of players need to be adjusted. As for coaching, If anything, you learn as you age. There have been many coaches who have gone on to be successful in their fields in their latter years.
 
The current premier league is probably the highest standard it’s ever been with so many quality managers across the league. I think the frustration most people have is with the fact that for a team & a manager that have been together for 3 seasons now it would be nice to see more of a style of play .

Anytime you mention anything like this you get the answer that we finished xyz in the table last 2 seasons or that look what Jose & LVG did which doesn’t really answer the question about style of play. I still can’t tell you what our basic formation is and there is a reason not many people who write on football tactics talk much about United and no it’s not because they hate United
 
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Sultan said:
I have heard this argument many times when Sir Alex was even the manager that his coaching was not to the standard of others in Europe. Yet, he won the Champions League twice and was in the final on 2 occasions. Could have won more but some circumstances went against him during his time.

It's an odd statement to say with experience coaches decline. Probably their mentality changes and the way to treat the new generation of players need to be adjusted. As for coaching, If anything, you learn as you age. There have been many coaches who have gone on to be successful in their fields in their latter years.
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I'd opine that the arguement that sir Alex's coaching was sub par compared to others in Europe is not that far from the truth. He is the greatest manager of all time, but in coaching and tactics, I'd perhaps give with a fair few ahead of him.
I'd say the likes of Pep Guardiola and Mourinho actually tactically outwitted him most times.

We never actually transformed tactically as a tram in his later years and post his departure.
This is however no slight on his achievements and impeccable record, I am just talking tactics and a clear style of play.
 
Sultan said:
I have heard this argument many times when Sir Alex was even the manager that his coaching was not to the standard of others in Europe. Yet, he won the Champions League twice and was in the final on 2 occasions. Could have won more but some circumstances went against him during his time.

It's an odd statement to say with experience coaches decline. Probably their mentality changes and the way to treat the new generation of players need to be adjusted. As for coaching, If anything, you learn as you age. There have been many coaches who have gone on to be successful in their fields in their latter years.
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Honest question: Do you have two or three examples of managers who won nothing till they were 50, but then they won trophies consistently and were recognized as world class in their 60s? I don't know of anyone, that's why I am asking. It is an interesting topic: managers who are late bloomers!
 
E-mal said:
We never actually transformed tactically as a tram in his later years and post his departure.
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It looks idiotic now, but when Fergie retired I thought that the one good thing that could come out of it is that we'll move ahead tactically.

Four managers later, we haven't.
 
Ayush_reddevil said:
Anytime you mention anything like this you get the answer that we finished xyz in the table last 2 seasons or that look what Jose & LVG did which doesn’t really answer the question about style of play. I still can’t tell you what our basic formation is and there is a reason not many people who write on football tactics don’t talk much about United and no it’s not because they hate United
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Since we're in a building stage, I'm more interested in how we play rather than where we finish (3rd or 2nd, because Liverpool have a crap season and standards for 2nd have dropped). I believe it's a better indicator to our ability to actually compete for what the final goal is, which is trophies. And I just don't see it in our play either. We've got better players and better understanding, so clearly we are improving, but it's lacking a key ingredient - the coaching.
 
Amir said:
Since we're in a building stage, I'm more interested in how we play rather than where we finish (3rd or 2nd, because Liverpool have a crap season and standards for 2nd have dropped). I believe it's a better indicator to our ability to actually compete for what the final goal is, which is trophies. And I just don't see it in our play either. We've got better players and better understanding, so clearly we are improving, but it's lacking a key ingredient - the coaching.
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Exactly. There has been far too much focus on the second place finish which was great but unless you are really competing for the title it doesn’t mean much overall. We were pretty much never in the title race.
 
E-mal said:
I'd opine that the arguement that sir Alex's coaching was sub par compared to others in Europe is not that far from the truth. He is the greatest manager of all time, but in coaching and tactics, I'd perhaps give with a fair few ahead of him.
I'd say the likes of Pep Guardiola and Mourinho actually tactically outwitted him most times.

We never actually transformed tactically as a tram in his later years and post his departure.
This is however no slight on his achievements and impeccable record, I am just talking tactics and a clear style of play.
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Even without my red-tinted glasses say Pep had better players at Barcelona. We were basically knocked out of both Euro games against Jose teams due to horrendous refereeing mistakes. Scholes scored a perfectly legit goal against Porto and the Nani sending off was similarly wrong against Madrid.

We tend to downplay coaches in the UK and for whatever reason seem to be enchanted by foreign coaches without much evidence of them being any superior. Yes, I concede there will be some exceptions on the continent and beyond.
 
Ayush_reddevil said:
The current premier league is probably the highest standard it’s ever been with so many quality managers across the league. I think the frustration most people have is with the fact that for a team & a manager that have been together for 3 seasons now it would be nice to see more of a style of play .

Anytime you mention anything like this you get the answer that we finished xyz in the table last 2 seasons or that look what Jose & LVG did which doesn’t really answer the question about style of play. I still can’t tell you what our basic formation is and there is a reason not many people who write on football tactics talk much about United and no it’s not because they hate United
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We have a style of play. It's just not distinct
 
To be fair, this is pretty much a new team assembled with the exception of a few remnants remaining from the past coaches. Again, I repeat let's wait and see how this group play. The money spent should and the players on paper should both entertain and bring home results. If it doesn't happen fingers will inevitably point at Ole.

In the meantime, as fans, we can do no more than supporting the team.
 
Amir said:
Since we're in a building stage, I'm more interested in how we play rather than where we finish (3rd or 2nd, because Liverpool have a crap season and standards for 2nd have dropped). I believe it's a better indicator to our ability to actually compete for what the final goal is, which is trophies. And I just don't see it in our play either. We've got better players and better understanding, so clearly we are improving, but it's lacking a key ingredient - the coaching.
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I take your point on this, but at the same time when you've just added serial winners Ronaldo and Varane to the ranks there comes a point where you have to say this is no longer a building stage. It's time to deliver.

At other clubs, Ole would never have had this much time without a trophy. Obviously his seasonal progression is there to be seen and that affords him some time to deliver the honours, but this year 100% he can't hide behind "building" as far as I'm concerned.
 
Amir said:
Since we're in a building stage, I'm more interested in how we play rather than where we finish (3rd or 2nd, because Liverpool have a crap season and standards for 2nd have dropped). I believe it's a better indicator to our ability to actually compete for what the final goal is, which is trophies. And I just don't see it in our play either. We've got better players and better understanding, so clearly we are improving, but it's lacking a key ingredient - the coaching.
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Yep.

A good example of this is the 17/18 season. We finished 2nd under Mourinho where Liverpool finished in 4th. But it was pretty clear from watching both teams that they were building towards something better than we were based on how they were actually playing. We also bullied Ajax out of the EL final that year, only for them to progress to the CL semi-finals the following season while Mourinho's time here ground to an ignominious conclusion. Because (unsurpringly) beating them with pragmatic Fellaini-based tactics wasn't the best indicator of which team was doing the right things to keep progressing from that point on.

I see a lot of people saying Solskjaer needs to win a trophy this season but in truth I'd be fine with another trophy-less year if we evolved into a side that looked high-functioning in terms coaching and tactics. That would be a better indicator for success next season than, say, being knocked out of the CL but winning a EL title that papers over the lack of any progression outside of playing personnel.
 
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Sultan said:
I have heard this argument many times when Sir Alex was even the manager that his coaching was not to the standard of others in Europe. Yet, he won the Champions League twice and was in the final on 2 occasions. Could have won more but some circumstances went against him during his time.

It's an odd statement to say with experience coaches decline. Probably their mentality changes and the way to treat the new generation of players need to be adjusted. As for coaching, If anything, you learn as you age. There have been many coaches who have gone on to be successful in their fields in their latter years.
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I never said anything about Sir Alex unlike many here I absolutely believe he was a brilliant Coach as well only in his latter years he kind of lost bit of focus maybe due to age . His European record when all things considered is up there with best as well .
Sir Alex was exception to the rule he went out on top if he was bit younger I have no doubt he would have taken the Challenge Posed by Guardiola and other young guns head on and most probably would have bested them as well but Mourinho and Van Gaal aren't in the same league they were clearly past it when we hired them so their tenure should not be used as cautionary tale against hiring the best Managers in the business.
 
frostbite said:
Honest question: Do you have two or three examples of managers who won nothing till they were 50, but then they won trophies consistently and were recognized as world class in their 60s? I don't know of anyone, that's why I am asking. It is an interesting topic: managers who are late bloomers!
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I'm not sure about winning anything prior to being 50.

However, I can think of a number of managers winning major trophies after passing 50 years of age. Sir Alex, Sir Matt Busby, Guus Hiddink, Wenger, Carlo Ancelotti, Ranieri are just a few recent ones I remember. I am sure you can add to this list. If anything there is very few young managers you can count having been successful in the Premier League/old first division. Most obvious are Jose and Pep. I'm not sure Wenger was younger than 50 when he first arrived.
 
gajender said:
Mourinho and Van Gaal aren't in the same league they were clearly past it when we hired them so their tenure should not be used as cautionary tale against hiring the best Managers in the business.
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How would you define a manager/coach as being past their best? Besides judging them on results I can't see an obvious answer. The results or lack of them could have many variables despite the coach being the best in class (Neville's words).
 
NotoriousISSY said:
I take your point on this, but at the same time when you've just added serial winners Ronaldo and Varane to the ranks there comes a point where you have to say this is no longer a building stage. It's time to deliver.

At other clubs, Ole would never have had this much time without a trophy. Obviously his seasonal progression is there to be seen and that affords him some time to deliver the honours, but this year 100% he can't hide behind "building" as far as I'm concerned.
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Yeah, I was talking more about the last couple of years. Obviously now it's time to deliever without excuses (but they are ready-made anyway: we need midfielders).
 
The more I think about our squad and the deficiencies in coaching...is there a 'system' where it doesn't really matter?

Pep, Klopp and Tuchel are all about the system, buying players that fit it, adhering to it and being disicplined. But is there another way to success? Go more down the motivated, physically powerful talented group of players that through ability and will can win matches? That feels to me like what we're after here. And tbh it would make sense for Ole to like that - it's how many of Fergie's teams were built. Excellent defence, excellent attack some people in the middle who sometimes connect the two. It's less predictable, less controlled but if you get the right personalities and couple them with the right fitness levels it might work.

I think that's what we have to hope for with Ole and these players. Fred and Pogba are never going to be Xavi and Iniesta. But they can still be an overwhelming force.
 
Sultan said:
I'm not sure about winning anything prior to being 50.

However, I can think of a number of managers winning major trophies after passing 50 years of age. Sir Alex, Sir Matt Busby, Guus Hiddink, Wenger, Carlo Ancelotti, Ranieri are just a few recent ones I remember. I am sure you can add to this list. If anything there is very few young managers you can count having been successful in the Premier League/old first division. Most obvious are Jose and Pep. I'm not sure Wenger was younger than 50 when he first arrived.
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Yes, these managers had won things before 50, actually much earlier. For example, Sir Matt Busby was born in 1909, won first division in 1952, ie at 43, but he also won the FA cup in 1948 when he was only 39. SAF won the European Cup with Aberdeen when he was 42, the Scottish top division at 39. Wenger won the French first division with Monaco when he was 39.

Most of those who win after 50 also won things when they were younger. If anyone knows of any "late bloomers" who won nothing before 50... I'd be interested to know!
 
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devilish said:
AWB was never great in going forward but his defensive contribution had recently gone to the shitters as well. His tackle against Young Boys is the epitome of that. No wonder why Ole wanted Trippier this season.
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How many red card he got in his career?

You realize players have form as well right?
 
People tend to forget when Ole first came in, we we're top 6 at best. The squad quality was wank.

3 years on, look where we are now. The expectation went from top 4 best to must win the title. He barely acknowledged for that efforts, he brought the pressure to himself and this is when we support them and expect them to deliver.
They say Ole can't improve, but yet he has constantly improved, making those arguments that he can't do it stupid as hell.

The argument about how we play also contradicts to what I've seen so far. There are many games when we play tenacious entertaining football, the lads are fighting for it. Once we lose, draw or play badly, we're suddenly play boring football 99% of the time. That's the issue here. I can't agree to that argument.

Also stupid arguments saying the coaches are awful doesn't fit with the narrative that the players he inherited improved a lot! Fred, McT, Shaw, Lindelof, AWB, all have improved.

Shocking results do happen, can't we chill a bit and come back to January to see whether he should be sacked or not?
 
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devilish said:
AWB was never great in going forward but his defensive contribution had recently gone to the shitters as well. His tackle against Young Boys is the epitome of that. No wonder why Ole wanted Trippier this season.
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That’s AWB who took the ball off the line at Wolves?
Yeah right.
 
Sultan said:
Was this a knee jerk thread after a bad result or two?

I have no idea of the work behind the scenes of our coaches. However, I can only assume they will be very competent at their work. Let's start with M Phelen who was appointed by football Don Sir Alex as first-team coach and assistant manager. That's some CV. Kieran Mckenna's work was so impressive Jose elevated him to the first-team staff following the departure of his sidekick Rui Faria. I am not sure about Carrick as a coach. I do know he was a great professional and well respected as a footballer. I do remember Ole saying Carrick not being a yes man, and he wouldn't have it any other way.

That's a lot of coaching experience just to decide the choice of playing styles 4-4-2, 5-4-1, 3-4-3, 4-3-3 and in-game management. We also now have Ronaldo who will obviously have an input. There is so much experience now in the team the players should be able to coach themselves and deal with in-game management. They are no longer apprentices.

I'm not saying Ole or his coaches have always made the right decisions, but as fans, it's easy to criticise substitutions after the events. To be fair, Ole has improved the team year on year and last season we finished second and were pretty close to winning some competitions.

Let's judge him after a major portion of the season. Not when we're top of the league and just lost one game due to a sending off and a mistake by a player in injury time. Yes, if there is no improvement after the season or something drastic happens during the course of the season then it's time for a post-mortem. In the meantime get behind the team.
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It was created last year and it wasn't a knee jerk. (Though it was created soon after a match). The post mortem has been happening for over an year now.

Just because Phelan worked with Sir Alex doesn't mean he has to be good with Ole as well, right? Same applies for everyone . SAF could literally make me as assistant and still win the EPL. Again, I have no idea what they do during training. The observations are based on the performances in the game.

Let's take this year - have you been convinced with the way we have been playing? A very honest question? Southampton, Wolves , Young Boys - we were shit.

With Ronaldo, Pogba, Bruno, Sancho - we have to dominate games for 90 mins . Do you think we will do that ? I just don't think so.

Again, this isn't saying sack him now. But he has to come up with ideas to play a dominating game.
 
Sultan said:
Was this a knee jerk thread after a bad result or two?

I have no idea of the work behind the scenes of our coaches. However, I can only assume they will be very competent at their work. Let's start with M Phelen who was appointed by football Don Sir Alex as first-team coach and assistant manager. That's some CV. Kieran Mckenna's work was so impressive Jose elevated him to the first-team staff following the departure of his sidekick Rui Faria. I am not sure about Carrick as a coach. I do know he was a great professional and well respected as a footballer. I do remember Ole saying Carrick not being a yes man, and he wouldn't have it any other way.

That's a lot of coaching experience just to decide the choice of playing styles 4-4-2, 5-4-1, 3-4-3, 4-3-3 and in-game management. We also now have Ronaldo who will obviously have an input. There is so much experience now in the team the players should be able to coach themselves and deal with in-game management. They are no longer apprentices.

I'm not saying Ole or his coaches have always made the right decisions, but as fans, it's easy to criticise substitutions after the events. To be fair, Ole has improved the team year on year and last season we finished second and were pretty close to winning some competitions.

Let's judge him after a major portion of the season. Not when we're top of the league and just lost one game due to a sending off and a mistake by a player in injury time. Yes, if there is no improvement after the season or something drastic happens during the course of the season then it's time for a post-mortem. In the meantime get behind the team.
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Players coach themselves. Jeez.
 
devilish said:
His defensive ability has been erratic for quite some time now. No wonder why Ole wanted Trippier.
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Pretty sure Trippier is for backup or competition to replace Dalot. Like Telles.

Or plan B if we want to put more crosses in.
 
Beachryan said:
The more I think about our squad and the deficiencies in coaching...is there a 'system' where it doesn't really matter?

Pep, Klopp and Tuchel are all about the system, buying players that fit it, adhering to it and being disicplined. But is there another way to success? Go more down the motivated, physically powerful talented group of players that through ability and will can win matches? That feels to me like what we're after here. And tbh it would make sense for Ole to like that - it's how many of Fergie's teams were built. Excellent defence, excellent attack some people in the middle who sometimes connect the two. It's less predictable, less controlled but if you get the right personalities and couple them with the right fitness levels it might work.

I think that's what we have to hope for with Ole and these players. Fred and Pogba are never going to be Xavi and Iniesta. But they can still be an overwhelming force.
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Honestly I don't think this approach is valid any more. SAF had a supernatural gift for team building and motivation that outstripped any tactical shortcomings ten times over. But that doesn't mean Ole does. Nothing about Ole over the last three years suggests he has a major advantage at creating a positive environment over his rivals. (Indeed our timidity and shortcomings on the biggest of nights might suggest the opposite.) At times we've seen Liverpool and City go out, dominate and swarm all over the biggest of teams. When do we do that? It’s clear they’re have a fire to win. The most we can do is equal that.

Plus SAF also had the ability to find talent and grab it, through a superior scouting network and our financial muscle. Both those advantages are gone for us now. With modern scouting and finances it's basically impossible for a top four club to get a vastly better squad than your rivals, unless they cock things up. The days of having a squad so strong that individual talent alone will win out is gone.

The top four is so competitive now that you can't have weaknesses. Yes you need talented individuals with a fierce determination to win and a strong team ethic. Our rivals have those too. But you also need a tactical approach that can win you games in conjunction with the above. On that we come last out of the top four clubs.
 
largelyworried said:
Honestly I don't think this approach is valid any more. SAF had a supernatural gift for team building and motivation that outstripped any tactical shortcomings ten times over. But that doesn't mean Ole does. Nothing about Ole over the last three years suggests he has a major advantage at creating a positive environment over his rivals. (Indeed our timidity and shortcomings on the biggest of nights might suggest the opposite.) At times we've seen Liverpool and City go out, dominate and swarm all over the biggest of teams. When do we do that? It’s clear they’re have a fire to win. The most we can do is equal that.

Plus SAF also had the ability to find talent and grab it, through a superior scouting network and our financial muscle. Both those advantages are gone for us now. With modern scouting and finances it's basically impossible for a top four club to get a vastly better squad than your rivals, unless they cock things up. The days of having a squad so strong that individual talent alone will win out is gone.

The top four is so competitive now that you can't have weaknesses. Yes you need talented individuals with a fierce determination to win and a strong team ethic. Our rivals have those too. But you also need a tactical approach that can win you games in conjunction with the above. On that we come last out of the top four clubs.
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We came 2nd. Fact.

The table is the metric, not what you think you know.
 
meamth said:
Pretty sure Trippier is for backup or competition to replace Dalot. Like Telles.

Or plan B if we want to put more crosses in.
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Trippier is an English international and a La Liga title winner. He's also in his prime. AWB can't even make it within the England's team and for good reason. He would have ended a backup player not Trippier.
 
largelyworried said:
Honestly I don't think this approach is valid any more. SAF had a supernatural gift for team building and motivation that outstripped any tactical shortcomings ten times over. But that doesn't mean Ole does. Nothing about Ole over the last three years suggests he has a major advantage at creating a positive environment over his rivals. (Indeed our timidity and shortcomings on the biggest of nights might suggest the opposite.) At times we've seen Liverpool and City go out, dominate and swarm all over the biggest of teams. When do we do that? It’s clear they’re have a fire to win. The most we can do is equal that.

Plus SAF also had the ability to find talent and grab it, through a superior scouting network and our financial muscle. Both those advantages are gone for us now. With modern scouting and finances it's basically impossible for a top four club to get a vastly better squad than your rivals, unless they cock things up. The days of having a squad so strong that individual talent alone will win out is gone.

The top four is so competitive now that you can't have weaknesses. Yes you need talented individuals with a fierce determination to win and a strong team ethic. Our rivals have those too. But you also need a tactical approach that can win you games in conjunction with the above. On that we come last out of the top four clubs.
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Agreed
 
devilish said:
Trippier is an English international and a La Liga title winner. He's also in his prime. AWB can't even make it within the England's team and for good reason. He would have ended a backup player not Trippier.
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Pretty sure Trippier won't be picked if TAA is fit.

Both are deemed 3rd or 4th choice RB. It's all come down to the manager's preference.

Also, they both had 6 assists all season. :)
 
Been a fan for 40 years. Love Ole and always will.

This said, I just am not seeing it after nearly 3 years. Squad quality is hugely better but we start most games badly and I'm sat there scratching my head as to why I rarely see us dominate the game for more than 15 minute spells.

I'm already pretty certain we will not finish higher than 3rd this season and absolutely will not win any of the other trophies.

He's done a great job of turning us back on course from the end of the Jose era but I can't see it getting any better than 3rd/4th.

Just my opinion.
 
GaryLifo said:
Been a fan for 40 years. Love Ole and always will.

This said, I just am not seeing it after nearly 3 years. Squad quality is hugely better but we start most games badly and I'm sat there scratching my head as to why I rarely see us dominate the game for more than 15 minute spells.

I'm already pretty certain we will not finish higher than 3rd this season and absolutely will not win any of the other trophies.

He's done a great job of turning us back on course from the end of the Jose era but I can't see it getting any better than 3rd/4th.

Just my opinion.
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You watch every team 90 minutes, the winning teams don't usually dominate all game.
 
meamth said:
You watch every team 90 minutes, the winning teams don't usually dominate all game.
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I didn't say we needed to dominate for 90 minutes. But 15 out of 90 is not going to be enough over the course of a season.

We're a decent side and we'll win more than we lose. We'll be nowhere near the title though IMO and if folk are good with that then fair enough. I've had 5 years now of having to enjoy seeing us win individual matches which ultimately count for nothing. Be nice to go back to winning something though eh?
 
meamth said:
Pretty sure Trippier won't be picked if TAA is fit.

Both are deemed 3rd or 4th choice RB. It's all come down to the manager's preference.

Also, they both had 6 assists all season. :)
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Still Trippier was chosen ahead of AWB and for very good reason. I don't know of many people who would choose AWB over Trippier tbh.
 
GaryLifo said:
I didn't say we needed to dominate for 90 minutes. But 15 out of 90 is not going to be enough over the course of a season.

We're a decent side and we'll win more than we lose. We'll be nowhere near the title though IMO and if folk are good with that then fair enough. I've had 5 years now of having to enjoy seeing us win individual matches which ultimately count for nothing. Be nice to go back to winning something though eh?
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Have faith my friend. We'll see this season.. ;)
 
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