VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

Martinez elbowed in the face - no review even though ETH told the 4th official that there was an elbow involved
McTominay fouled in the box, clear penalty - no penalty given

Talk enough about an injustice (yes the "offside" goal was illogical but apparently the rule is very unclear) and refs will try to even out the decisions in the next few games.
That's where I feel we are weak as a club. You see Arteta, Klopp, even fecking Guardiola and their respective journos (you know, the ones that are always complimentary to each respective manager all the time, usually supporters of the club itself) sometimes keep yapping on about an incorrect decision from weeks ago and they get favorable decisions as a result later on. We never do that for some reason.

Like remember when Klopp kept yapping on and on about the very marginal united offside goal against Pool years ago? They got very favorable decisions for a few games after that.
 
This is from the Guardian match report

The Scotland midfielder thought he should have had a penalty after he went down in the area under a challenge from Richards but VAR showed there had been no contact.
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What the actual feck? Am I going insane with refereeing paranoia or what is going on?
 
Pexbo said:
The “clear and obvious error” rule is such a complete and utter nonsense or at least how they are choosing to interpret it.

It is basically saying “wow that was a difficult decision, it was quick and the angles the ref had were very awkward so it’s perfectly reasonable that they got it wrong so we can stick with that decision as to not embarrass them”


When really it should be “that was a very difficult decision to make, it was quick and the angle was awkward but fortunately we have 8 different camera angles and are able to slow it down and pinpoint exactly what the correct decision was which will empower the ref”
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It's ridiculous. How is not giving a clear penalty when you should have not a clear and obvious error? They are such a bunch of clowns.
 
Edwards6 said:
Where's all the outrage about referee's tonight, there was 3 days of debates on social media and all the sports channels after Saturday but guarantee this one on Mctominay will be forgotten about
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That's what the likes if Carrager, Murphy Shearer and the like want. Refs afraid of giving us anything.
Gallagher summed it up perfectly in the Sky studio when talking about the offside Saturday.
He said it would be easier not to give it as nothing would be said.
 
Fully Fledged said:
That's what the likes if Carrager, Murphy Shearer and the like want. Refs afraid of giving us anything.
Gallagher summed it up perfectly in the Sky studio when talking about the offside Saturday.
He said it would be easier not to give it as nothing would be said.
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If we had anonymous referees watching the game on a screen with the whistle going out on the stadium speakers and the explanation for the call going through a voice changer we'd probably get a higher percentage of correct calls from referees.

If this incident doesn't tell you that media plays a part in deciding outcomes of games, then you're not looking.
 
Anustart89 said:
If we had anonymous referees watching the game on a screen with the whistle going out on the stadium speakers and the explanation for the call going through a voice changer we'd probably get a higher percentage of correct calls from referees.

If this incident doesn't tell you that media plays a part in deciding outcomes of games, then you're not looking.
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As I said Gallagher's comments summed it up for me.
 
VAR is a fecking shambles - but we did beat city on the back of a controversial decision - so you have to believe that over the course of a season they even up. Id say we are still owed a few though!!
 
Pink Moon said:
A 50/50 decision went your way tonight too and I haven't seen much uproar over it. Casemiro's tackle was a shocker.
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It was a shit tackle but that is never, ever a red card in the PL. The correct decision was made, it wasn't a 50/50.

The pen call on McTominay was as shocking a decision as I've seen in a long time. Wasn't mentioned at all in the BBC football daily podcast during the match debrief. Quelle surprise.
 
Hackman2210 said:
VAR is a fecking shambles - but we did beat city on the back of a controversial decision - so you have to believe that over the course of a season they even up. Id say we are still owed a few though!!
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The thing is that it was a decision that was technically correct due to a loophole in the law. Yet somehow last night's refs took it upon themselves to punish us for scoring a lawful goal due to the media narrative.

I'd get it (not really from the perspective of them being there to uphold the laws and not right wrongs, but from a human perspective) if someone had blatantly cheated, like taken a proper dive and fooled the refs and the VAR and then posted a video on instagram where they went like "HAHA the referees are such dopes I proper did them good there!!", then the next guy would be like "Fool me once, shame on...shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again" and have a restrictive approach to giving that same player a penalty the next game.

But for refs to take a lawful goal as a signal that "hey, these guys must be stopped and I'm the guy to do it by not giving them correct decisions" is beyond ridiculous.

But you see the media narrative shaping opinions all the time. Antony does a spin skill move at 0-0 and it's showboating and disrespectful and discussed for a week. Martinelli turns around and controls the ball with his back while leading 2-0 in a heated derby against their local rivals and this is how it's described in the press
Gabriel Martinelli added to Tottenham 's humiliation in the North London Derby with a moment which summed up Arsenal 's dominance.

[...]

It was in the 67th minute of a game which Arsenal largely dominated when Martinelli - who'd enjoy a productive day down the left flank, despite failing to register a goal or assist - saw the opportunity for some cheeky showboating and turned around to control a bouncing ball with his back.
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Haha, just some cheeky humiliation! LOL!
 
Fully Fledged said:
That's what the likes if Carrager, Murphy Shearer and the like want. Refs afraid of giving us anything.
Gallagher summed it up perfectly in the Sky studio when talking about the offside Saturday.
He said it would be easier not to give it as nothing would be said.
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Exactly, people don't remember the decisions that go against us because they're not discussed. They build a narrative that the refs always help us and that puts pressure on them, like when Klopp had a moan about us getting penalties and the refs went out of there way not to give us one for ages
 
VAR isn't meant to re referee games. The ref had a good view of the McTominay incident, not an obvious error.

If Ref gave a pen also doubt it would get overturned for the same reason.

Maybe Webb influence, VAR will start to be used properly, finally!
 
Edwards6 said:
Exactly, people don't remember the decisions that go against us because they're not discussed. They build a narrative that the refs always help us and that puts pressure on them, like when Klopp had a moan about us getting penalties and the refs went out of there way not to give us one for ages
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Pep said Saturday. It's Old Trafford what do you expect.
He knew what he was saying.
 
Hackman2210 said:
VAR is a fecking shambles - but we did beat city on the back of a controversial decision - so you have to believe that over the course of a season they even up. Id say we are still owed a few though!!
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Sure. The City offside call was a controversial decision that I could see it argued both ways. This isn't controversial remotely. It's as clear as penalty as it can be. There's no debate or two arguments about it. If this isn't a penalty, then what the hell is? Murder someone in the penalty box?
 
Mb194dc said:
VAR isn't meant to re referee games. The ref had a good view of the McTominay incident, not an obvious error.

If Ref gave a pen also doubt it would get overturned for the same reason.

Maybe Webb influence, VAR will start to be used properly, finally!
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That's not using it properly and it's not used like that in any other league or competition.
 
mct one was clearly something where VAR would have stepped in in the past 2 seasons, but it's now basically not being used at all. we're back to the vibes-based status quo of referee decisions before var, with the added bonus vibes-based overturning.
 
Mb194dc said:
VAR isn't meant to re referee games. The ref had a good view of the McTominay incident, not an obvious error.

If Ref gave a pen also doubt it would get overturned for the same reason.

Maybe Webb influence, VAR will start to be used properly, finally!
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Of course it was an obvious error, it was a clear pen.
 
Mb194dc said:
VAR isn't meant to re referee games. The ref had a good view of the McTominay incident, not an obvious error.

If Ref gave a pen also doubt it would get overturned for the same reason.

Maybe Webb influence, VAR will start to be used properly, finally!
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I disagree with everything you've said here.

1) If the ref had a good view, saw the defender trip and push McTominay while not touching the ball, then it goes without saying that an obvious error has been made.

2) Because it would've been the right decision.

3) Proper use of VAR is not to ensure that incorrect decisions are allowed to stand. I thought VAR was supposed to make refereeing errors fewer. When clamouring for VAR, I don't think anyone said "We want to introduce this because we want incorrect decisions to stand!"

I think we should just remove the R part of VAR. Have the screen pitchside and then let the ref himself decide when he wants a second look at a situation, and let teams have a challenge each that they waste if it doesn't lead to an overturn. That just requires the ref to change his mind and gets rid of the clear and obvious bollocks. We've seen that once a ref goes to the monitor it takes a shorter time for him to decide on the outcome than it takes for the VAR to assess the situation and decide whether it's "obvious", "clear" or "clear and obvious", before ultimately letting a wrong decision stand because it's not egregiously wrong.

The genuine 50/50s are very few in football, and in order to not "re-referee" games, they're using video evidence to let 10/90 decisions stand. It's absolutely not how anyone wanted VAR to be implemented. Their own webpage says they want minimum intervention to maintain the pace of the game, yet have no problem using two minutes of replays to decide if the threshold for sending the ref to the monitor is met rather than if the wrong decision was made. That time could've been spent on just having the referee look for himself.

VAR's role should basically be "this incident could have had a different outcome, you should go and take a look". It'd take less time than rolling tons of replays and then have the wrong decision stand anyway. We'd get more interventions, but they'd be quicker and overall accuracy would be better.
 
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Mb194dc said:
VAR isn't meant to re referee games. The ref had a good view of the McTominay incident, not an obvious error.

If Ref gave a pen also doubt it would get overturned for the same reason.

Maybe Webb influence, VAR will start to be used properly, finally!
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Not an obvious error? The vast consensus is that it was a penalty. No penalty was given by the ref when it should have been. The ref should have been sent to the pitchside monitor at a minimum. Watching the replays back last night he will feel let down by the VAR.
 
HackeyC said:
Not an obvious error? The vast consensus is that it was a penalty. No penalty was given by the ref when it should have been. The ref should have been sent to the pitchside monitor at a minimum. Watching the replays back last night he will feel let down by the VAR.
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You'd hope so. The alternative would be that we have a PL referee who genuinely looks at that tackle and says "I saw McTominay get tripped and shoved and I saw that the defender got none of the ball but it's not a foul", which wouldn't be consistent with what he deemed as fouls for the rest of the game.

Surely he must've communicated to the VAR that he thought the Palace player got a touch on the ball, which should've sprung VAR into action considering he had video evidence to the contrary.
 
Anustart89 said:
But you see the media narrative shaping opinions all the time. Antony does a spin skill move at 0-0 and it's showboating and disrespectful and discussed for a week. Martinelli turns around and controls the ball with his back while leading 2-0 in a heated derby against their local rivals and this is how it's described in the press

Haha, just some cheeky humiliation! LOL!
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There is no better time to do it than this one :lol:
 
KjaAnd said:
I don't think anybody on here disagrees but do you see the difference in reaction from the media?
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Not really no since the 2 situations are miles apart and i frankly don't even know why it's being brought up. His spin move is useless and most of the time done to provoke the opponent (which is absolutely fine and hilarious to me). There's a time and a place for both. If Martinelli did that against Newcastle at 0-0, after producing feck all in the game, i'm sure the reaction would be different from fans and the media.
Anustart89 said:
Hmm, I'd say juggling the ball at 4-0 up would be better, but that's just me :lol:
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Cheeky :D
 
Mb194dc said:
VAR isn't meant to re referee games. The ref had a good view of the McTominay incident, not an obvious error.

If Ref gave a pen also doubt it would get overturned for the same reason.

Maybe Webb influence, VAR will start to be used properly, finally!
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That's not how it works with fouls in the box. Either McTominay was clipped or he wasn't. If the referee missed it, even if he was standing 3 feet away, then its automatically a clear and obvious error. Contact is black and white.
 
Mb194dc said:
VAR isn't meant to re referee games. The ref had a good view of the McTominay incident, not an obvious error.

If Ref gave a pen also doubt it would get overturned for the same reason.

Maybe Webb influence, VAR will start to be used properly, finally!
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It’s a clear and obvious error because it’s clearly a penalty and it wasn’t given. Surely this is the exact sort of thing VAR exists for, otherwise what’s even the point of it?

To further muddle the rules, had this been given on the field, there’s absolutely no chance VAR would’ve overturned it.

The whole thing is such a mess.
 
El Zoido said:
It’s a clear and obvious error because it’s clearly a penalty and it wasn’t given. Surely this is the exact sort of thing VAR exists for, otherwise what’s even the point of it?

To further muddle the rules, had this been given on the field, there’s absolutely no chance VAR would’ve overturned it.

The whole thing is such a mess.
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If it has nothing to say either way, then what's the point?
 
Mb194dc said:
VAR isn't meant to re referee games. The ref had a good view of the McTominay incident, not an obvious error.

If Ref gave a pen also doubt it would get overturned for the same reason.

Maybe Webb influence, VAR will start to be used properly, finally!
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Of course it's an obvious error, the defender fouled Mctominay and didn't get the ball so obviously the ref got it wrong
 
awop said:
Not really no since the 2 situations are miles apart and i frankly don't even know why it's being brought up. His spin move is useless and most of the time done to provoke the opponent (which is absolutely fine and hilarious to me). There's a time and a place for both. If Martinelli did that against Newcastle at 0-0, after producing feck all in the game, i'm sure the reaction would be different from fans and the media.

Cheeky :D
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They're not miles apart. Antony was criticized for disrespecting his opponents - Martinelli wasn't. The score is completely irrelevant in this case.
 
They couldn’t possibly give us another decision in our favour after the derby so we get fecked over in the process.
 
Abdullah7 said:
didn't the palace defender get a toe on the ball before tackling Mctom which makes it a no penalty?

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I don't see any touch, but even if he did, getting a tiny touch on the ball which doesn't even change its direction doesn't mean that he has won the ball.

The arm in the side and the stepping across to trip him would make it a foul by themselves. Now this guy has gone and done both and still hasn't fouled him apparently. Baffling.
 
Even if he does get a touch on it, it needs to be enough of a touch to fully dispossess McTominay - i.e. you can't brush the ball and wipe out the attacker.
 
I’m most annoyed about the elbow honestly. He properly swung into Licha. Didn’t even seem to be checked by VAR
 
Sunny Jim said:
Am i the only who think that wall for Olise's goal was stood too far? Similar case to Aston Villa game
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Not only that but I don't think the foul was even committed where the freekick was taken. The Palace forward fell like 4 yards away from where he got fouled.
 
Sviken said:
Sure. The City offside call was a controversial decision that I could see it argued both ways. This isn't controversial remotely. It's as clear as penalty as it can be. There's no debate or two arguments about it. If this isn't a penalty, then what the hell is? Murder someone in the penalty box?
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Reminder McTominay got called for a penalty for touching someone in the box on a corner who flopped this season and VAR confirmed it. A thing that never gets called. Then there was that horrendous call in Europa that gave Sociedad a penalty. None of those talked about.

But us getting a goal because of how the rule is written causes the media to cry for days

ABU
 
Sunny Jim said:
Am i the only who think that wall for Olise's goal was stood too far? Similar case to Aston Villa game
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Think the fact they were allowed to take it 6 yards further forward than where the foul took place was worse tbh. If they take it from the correct place Olise isn't shooting.
 
Sunny Jim said:
Am i the only who think that wall for Olise's goal was stood too far? Similar case to Aston Villa game
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