Cheers - so yeah, he's offside - nothing to really argue about.
VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to celebrate rare back-to-back victories for Manchester United! They analyse the late win in the Europa League vs. Rangers and then try and find things to analyse in a pretty dour game vs. Fulham. They also chat about the latest Marcus Rashford news, and look at the latest transfer news.
Cheers - so yeah, he's offside - nothing to really argue about.
It was offside, and I can’t see how anyone has a problem with it.
The rules and the VAR implementation around offsides are fine.
Let’s remember the Coventry had a goal disallowed in the FA Cup semi which would have knocked out United due to a very close call. It’s a factual part of the game.
The rules and the VAR implementation around offsides are fine.
Let’s remember the Coventry had a goal disallowed in the FA Cup semi which would have knocked out United due to a very close call. It’s a factual part of the game.
Very late to the party but the Lewis-Skelly red card is such a comically awful decision.
It’s 25 yards out. Why should the defenders be given the advantage when they’re playing a high line? The same happened with Garnacho against Arsenal.
But you have to draw a line (literally) somewhere. How much of an advantage to you give the attacker? 10cm, 50cm, 1 metre?
Do you then change this margin if teams play a low block? It doesn’t make sense.
This is one of the reasons VAR has been allowed to be implemented so poorly, because fans argue over the simplest of things - when they feel their club has got the wrong end of the stick. This allows PGMOL such leeway, because even when they get it right - fans will still argue.
I feel like I'm in a parallel reality.
A correct decision that was made due to the implementation of a modern technology is used as an argument against it... while linesmen who have allowed so many disastrous mistakes over the years are suddenly preferable because people don't want to wait?
I don't have much issues with linesmen by the way, it's an insanely difficult job and is literally impossible to perfect as a human. I'll still take the VAR check on that Drogba's goal.
Nice to see Carragher and Redknapp being told what to say by Sky and defending Oliver no matter what.
What a pair of gutless individuals, the PGMOL really have Sky in their back pocket it seems.
When the crap hits the fan, the PGMOL run to Sky and say please don't highlight the mistakes too much and defend our referees at all costs.
What a pair of gutless individuals, the PGMOL really have Sky in their back pocket it seems.
When the crap hits the fan, the PGMOL run to Sky and say please don't highlight the mistakes too much and defend our referees at all costs.
There’s definitely a partnership there, the fact they have Gallagher in there too.
The question is what are we losing from the game by getting more accurate decisions ?
When I’m at a league of Ireland game or even switch on a championship match, when a goal is scored it’s a completely different experience. VAR in its current format is a pox , I’d nearly rather less correct calls then using it. Spoils the games most important moments.
Quantum measured offside decision is silly unless it’s clearly obvious (within seconds). They are still getting poor VAR calls that makes it more frustrating, because if you have a technology that’s only purpose is to reduce mistakes , it has to correct mistakes and will be held to a higher standard.
I’d be happy for VAR to be scrapped entirely.
I mean just look at the still photo used to draw the line and tell me what unfair advantage Amad has there. He’s not 10cm ahead of the attacker, they’re in line but because his body shape is a little more forward facing his shoulder is slightly ahead but not to any meaningful degree.
The decision was absolutely correct as per the rules of the game and VAR but come on, there’s no competitive advantage being gained by where Amad is in that split second.
I’m all for VAR, the FA Cup match against Arsenal was evidence as to why leaving it to the ref’s discretion doesn’t work too well. I just think the rules and the technology supporting should be applied fairly but also in a way that benefits attacking football.
Yup. And the comments from VAR advocates in this thread are all the evidence you need that its introduction has fixed nothing. They’re more upset about refereeing than ever. The only change is that their narrative has shifted from incompetence to corruption. And, as I keep saying, every single big decision splits opinions on here. So people will always find a reason to decide that the referees are against them, no matter what happens. So VAR will always be pointless.
But where's the threshold between a quantum measured and clearly obvious offside? Is it the same "clear and obvious" dilemma that's actually one of the worst issues with VAR?
As for the supposed vibes... I don't know, I can't agree with it but that's at least a subjective opinion. I know that I'd rather not sulk about stuff like the Drogba goal for literal decades than get every decision instantly. While VAR is the step in the right direction which isn't yet implemented properly but that's mostly due to the incompetence of the referees themselves, not the VAR. And offsides are the one thing that is implemented correctly and that works extremely well (and it worked correctly last night yet again).
It’s true that there is no competitive advantage, but at what point would there be? Does it depend on the trajectory of the lean, whether the defender is running forwards, standing still or going backwards?
The problem you have - unless you have a factual element, e.g in line, then you would revert to a subjective interpretation of what competitive advantage is. This is one area of refereeing and VAR where we have a level of consistency.
I’ve just seen it. I expected it to be at least debatable. It isn’t. As much as I hate cynical fouls that’s a shocking decision to show a red.
It reminds me of when Casemiro was sent off against Southampton. A total nothing challenge that was never going to hurt anyone but the ref and VAR got their knickers in a twist.
The quality of the refereeing is atrocious but with the introduction of VAR we have more reasons to expect that to improve (instead of the usual "the ref didn't see it/human mistake" argument), hence the active discussion. And with clear rules and competent people VAR actually allows you to eliminate most of the big mistakes, the issue is that the human side of the system is stuck in the past with the mindset of complete non-accountability.
The comments from anti-VAR advocates that somehow found VAR's fault in a correct decision is all the evidence that you need though.
I do find it amusing that a quality goal being chalked off because one player’s shoulder might have been fractionally closer to the goal line than another player’s shoulder is seen as vindication of this brave new post-VAR world. Enjoy this version of football, lads. You deserve it.
Oops
Looks to me that Amad's arm is vertical. Hence the arm and shoulder are on the same plane.
To the eye Amad looks just offside.
I'm totally against VAR. But offside is one of the few areas where it makes some sense. As long as it's accurate.
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How was that different before VAR? Again, you somehow make it sound like VAR (an instrument of providing a more accurate judgment on offside) is at fault for offside itself…
Yeah, that’s the post-VAR world’s fault, offside didn’t rule out quality goals where the offside position of an attacker didn’t give him a significant advantage before.
I don’t fully understand your second paragraph but we’re definitely seeing more of these armpit hair offside disallowed goals since VAR was introduced. And it’s a stupid reason to disallow goals. That’s my point.
By relying on real time onfield calls, you used to see attackers given the benefit of the doubt on very tight calls. Which is in keeping with the spirit of the game. Offside was only introduced to prevent goal hanging. This razor’s edge bullshit on every tight decision, combined with delayed celebrations, is terrible and goes completely against everything we enjoy about football.
Totally disagree. We saw the same amount, just that they were random before VAR and correct with it
The red line is there I think coming from the shoulder, its just the same colour as Amads shirt, it just blends in and looks like his arm.
Yep.
I disagree. Especially after the directive a few years back (might even be a decade ago?) to give attackers the benefit of the doubt. A sensible, practical tweak that improved football as a spectacle which is in keeping with the spirit of the offside law and no longer possible due to VAR.
Gallagher seems to be implicitly suggesting to me that he’s spoken to Oliver and he stands by his red card decision. If that’s correct, then that emphasises the problem with him as a referee - it’s quite clearly the wrong decision and the only reason why he’d be doing so would be because he’s too stubborn to accept he might have made a mistake.
It also shows that he’s in no way an impartial judge. He’s running interference for his mates. That’s his job role.
Yeah, to be fair he did also say that he considers it a yellow card but that just emphasises how indefensible the decision is.
In all fairness, I don’t blame Oliver for this incident either. I can see why he got it wrong in full speed with one view. This is 100% on the VAR and the way in which it has been implemented. Given most people viewing it can see it’s clearly the wrong decision, it’s implausible that the VAR didn’t at least have concerns. Oliver should have definitely been sent to the screen.
On the offsides I suppose the discussion is fairly academic at this point as we'll have the automated version soon enough but I'd say it'll be next season before we see it. There's been no word on it since they said it was delayed back in September, as far as I can ascertain.
We'll have a whole new set of arguments at that point when we see how they've implemented it and whether they've kept any of the current margins for error etc.
We'll have a whole new set of arguments at that point when we see how they've implemented it and whether they've kept any of the current margins for error etc.
Dont understand the confusement he looks offside in real time and looked offside before lines where drawn and the ones complaining saying advantage to the attacker this is almost as close as the Coventry goal in the FA cup which was very very tight but was offside the same people saying advantage to the attacker where certainly not saying it that day. Is there clear bias from referees against us absolutely yes but yesterdays match i didnt see any controversy.
The offside in the Coventry game was also absurd, as was the hand ball decision given in their favour that preceded it.
No it wasn't. The chap was offside.
By an incredibly fractional distance, and according to technology that we know, factually, is not infallible.
In football , when a goal is scored , the unbridled excitement is now being curtailed. As soon as a goal goes in, alot of people (instinctively) now don’t celebrate with the same enjoyment. Thats a hefty price for me and it does spoil my enjoyment.
Obvious things like clear offside (eye test on replay) or clear mistakes. Make the threshold for VAR use higher as they have been doing.
The offside rule , as I understand it, was brought in to stop people hatching. I don’t believe the original idea that was if a person is a MM ahead of a defender you’d expect it to be called. There’s plenty of subjective decisions now still being argued, you won’t change that.
So why are we getting bogged down in this perfect offside rule? It’s nonsense and until it’s instant auto call, like ball over line, I think VAR shouldn’t be getting involved in micro calls , drawing stupid lines.
I can’t track the anti-VAR argument when it comes to offsides and it seems a little all over the place.
No one is saying they enjoy waiting for a decision.
No one is saying that they like seeing goals chalked off for an armpit being offside (apart from when they do - e.g. Coventry).
No one is saying that attackers gain an advantage from being centimetres offside.
All I’ve seen being repeatedly stated is that you have to draw the line (both literally and figuratively) somewhere and that introducing more subjectivity will only make things more unclear.
There’s also some circular reasoning going on that seems to be cropping up a lot at the moment.
Step 1 - Argue against something despite being presented with objective empirical evidence to the contrary.
Step 2 - Use that assertion as evidence for your point, e.g. “That we’re even having this argument proves that VAR is a farce, it was supposed to bring certainty and yet all its caused is more confusion.”
The fact that you could (mis)use that line of reasoning for literally any debate should set alarm bells off that possibly we are no longer arguing in entirely in good faith.
I think it’s easy to romanticise the past. Conceding offside goals and having perfectly good goals chalked off was incredibly frustrating.
The automated offsides should fix the waiting and celebration issues. You’ll still have decision being made with fine margins as they are now, but that’s no different from goal line technology.
No one is saying they enjoy waiting for a decision.
No one is saying that they like seeing goals chalked off for an armpit being offside (apart from when they do - e.g. Coventry).
No one is saying that attackers gain an advantage from being centimetres offside.
All I’ve seen being repeatedly stated is that you have to draw the line (both literally and figuratively) somewhere and that introducing more subjectivity will only make things more unclear.
There’s also some circular reasoning going on that seems to be cropping up a lot at the moment.
Step 1 - Argue against something despite being presented with objective empirical evidence to the contrary.
Step 2 - Use that assertion as evidence for your point, e.g. “That we’re even having this argument proves that VAR is a farce, it was supposed to bring certainty and yet all its caused is more confusion.”
The fact that you could (mis)use that line of reasoning for literally any debate should set alarm bells off that possibly we are no longer arguing in entirely in good faith.
I think it’s easy to romanticise the past. Conceding offside goals and having perfectly good goals chalked off was incredibly frustrating.
The automated offsides should fix the waiting and celebration issues. You’ll still have decision being made with fine margins as they are now, but that’s no different from goal line technology.
I’m yet to understand why anyone would be “against VAR”. Sure, the implementation isn’t always the smoothest, but it has corrected so many bad decisions - “injustices” - and outright “robberies”. United likely doesn’t have the 2024 FA Cup if it wasn’t for VAR
I'd have been fine with that goal standing personally. Using technology to disallow a goal for someone's shoulder or kneecap being slightly offside is ludicrous, they are not gaining any advantage.
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I still want VAR but at this point I don't know why it is so inept. The offside thing has to be a millimeter judging. It sucks when a great goal is chaulked off for a toe being off, but I don't see any other way to do it, or it become subjective again. Why it takes so long is crazy sometimes.
And then on a decision like in our game, they seem to gloss over it in 10 secs. The problem is in my opinion first of all the VAR official needs to be from another refereeing body. Totally independent....and there needs to be some kind of timeliness review on these decisions too. We have at the moment replaced the inconsistency we had in refereeing pre VAR with another method of providing inconsistent results.
And then on a decision like in our game, they seem to gloss over it in 10 secs. The problem is in my opinion first of all the VAR official needs to be from another refereeing body. Totally independent....and there needs to be some kind of timeliness review on these decisions too. We have at the moment replaced the inconsistency we had in refereeing pre VAR with another method of providing inconsistent results.
For starters, it's not about what's good for United. Certainly not in isolation. That would be like arguing for financial rules that effect the whole of football, on the basis of whether they benefit the club I support.
I'm also not against the use of technology in football. Goal line tech seems to work well, is quick and easy to use. It's a big plus. I think this should be extended, when possible and to a similar standard, to offsides and ball out of play.
The Video Assistant Referee part is where I have a big problem. The rules and nature of football simply don't lend themselves to the level of scrutiny that VAR employs. If they always came to the correct decision very quickly then great, I'd be pleased with that. But it's never going to happen, at least not while football remains a contact sport. There is no practicable definition of reasonable force or contact. So we have just as much inconsistency of decisions as we did pre VAR. There was little attempt to alter the rules to suit VAR, all we've seen is ill thought out tinkering with the handball rules.
You mention the mistakes VAR has corrected. What about the Rashford red card in europe? The Casemiro red card against Palace? The penalty this year against West Ham? Three quick examples off the top of my head, not called by the on field officials, but given after VAR got involved. All 3 were wrong. Or, to put it another way, all 3 were the type of incident that gets rightly ignored 9 times out of 10. What about the the Bruno red card against spurs this season? If VAR is so useful, how was that mistake not rectified? Of course, every club will have it's examples. Even that lot down the road, I assume, for who VAR seem to be watching on a tiny screen with about 50 pixels when it suits them.
It's probably true, the number of bad mistakes with VAR is a bit lower than it was without. BUT. The drawbacks of using VAR, as they are, are huge, and come really close to ruining the game for me. The biggest problem is the waiting. Pre VAR, when a goal was scored you'd look for the ref and linesman to make sure they hadn't blown or flagged for something they'd seen. A couple of seconds at the most was enough. One in a 1000 times there might be a situation where they'd want to confer on something and fans would be delighted/devestated based on their decision. But now, you can have up to 5 minutes of not knowing. Take Mainoo's goal in the final last year... It looked to me that Garnacho was offside in the build up. So despite the excellent move and huge goal, I didn't celebrate it because I was fairly sure it was going to be brought back. Of course, it wasn't. But by the time I was sure the goal was good, the moment had largely passed. The biggest moment in football. Academy kid scores excellent goal against local rivals in the cup final. Yes it was still the winning goal. I was still delighted about the result. But for those of us that still enjoy football for the moment rather that the post match banter, this feels like a change too far. MAYBE these delays would be worth it if VAR consistently made the same, correct, decisions. Really though, it has to be much quicker AND much more accurate. Which feels like a pipe dream right now.
On top of that is a human problem which probably shouldn't exist with VAR, but several years of evidence suggests it's even worse than feared, with no sign of it ever going away. Namely human biases and susceptibility to outside pressures. I have little doubt left that certain officials are unable to put aside their preferences when doing their job. But my concerns are more than that. 'X' official clearly doesn't like my club was a problem before and it's still a problem now. VAR should, in thoery, have been able to smooth out those weaknesses. If anything though, it has amplified the problem, by giving officials more leeway to interfere when it suits them. A whole new set of powers to be abused, by choosing when to scrutinise these slight contacts, or borderline decisions.
I know you weren't asking me for an essay, but given this thread has been active for quite some time with many many responses and you still say what you did, I thought I'd give it a go!
I'll repeat this line though: There is no practicable definition of reasonable force or contact. This is why VAR, in it's current guise at least, can likely never be satisfactory for me.
Your statement was that it was mental that a player clearly being offside was enough to disallow a goal. I'd suggest it's significantly more mental when an incorrect decision with no ability to review is enough to disallow a goal (or incorrectly allow one, etc).
If we're getting into margin of error, then surely you have to agree that VAR with lines drawn has a much lower margin of error than a split second viewing from a linesman who at best is in line with only one of the players involved.