VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

We're not even going into the corruptible nature of man. Assuming refs are squeaky clean when they're paid a pittance and with the amount of money in sport is a fool's hope. VAR is necessary to eliminate a lot of these and bias issues as well.

Having a separate body in charge of VAR seems the first and most obvious solution. Why isn't that something that is proposed or about to happen?
 
Yes agree with you. I would have rather we lost that game and got rid of EtH then. Life would have been much better now. But who knows.
What's the point of being a football fan if you can't appreciate a mental cup run (Newport, Liverpool and Coventry were all bizarre) followed by a sturdy dismantling of our local rivals in the final?
 
Another thing that irritates me is how tough it is on the assistant referees. Obviously, VAR has the effect of holding them to an impossible standard.

They could definitely introduce something equivalent to 'umpire's call' in cricket so that decent decisions on-field aren't undermined.

I know it's been said a million times, but why can't clubs all agree on it. It makes sense and it has a precedent in sport that has been accepted as just.
Seeing as most of this thread is dedicated to how poorly set up VAR is to deal with on the pitch mistakes due to a constantly changing but mostly unrealistically high intervention threshold, this will be a popular opinion, I'd imagine. It doesn't make much sense. Let the episode play out if you're not 100% sure and let VAR decide on the offside call, it really doesn't take that long most of the time and with the inevitable introduction of a semi-automated offside it'll take even less.

Referee's jobs are hard, but the priority shouldn't be to protect them from getting undermined, it should be to make the correct calls — barely anyone criticizes the ref if the correct call was made in the end, usually those things get forgotten even before the final whistle. A bad decision that wasn't overturned due to it being a "ref's call" is what's going to haunt them for weeks/months/years... well, not the decision but the pissed off fans that are going to bring it up every time your name is going to get mentioned.
 
Webb can't say that VAR should virtually never overrule an onfield decision as the opus moderandi of the PGMOL and then also not chastise and punish Oliver for the 'penalty' against WHU.

Personally I have no idea why the PGMOL even gets behind Oliver, he seems like an utter, utter f*cktard.
 
We're not even going into the corruptible nature of man. Assuming refs are squeaky clean when they're paid a pittance and with the amount of money in sport is a fool's hope. VAR is necessary to eliminate a lot of these and bias issues as well.

Having a separate body in charge of VAR seems the first and most obvious solution. Why isn't that something that is proposed or about to happen?
The top referees earn about 100k a year, hardly a pittance!
 
Another thing that irritates me is how tough it is on the assistant referees. Obviously, VAR has the effect of holding them to an impossible standard.

They could definitely introduce something equivalent to 'umpire's call' in cricket so that decent decisions on-field aren't undermined.

I know it's been said a million times, but why can't clubs all agree on it. It makes sense and it has a precedent in sport that has been accepted as just.

You mean like the 'referees call' which has meant that the VAR has been less likely to intervene this season?

It's been a shit show.
 
We're not even going into the corruptible nature of man. Assuming refs are squeaky clean when they're paid a pittance and with the amount of money in sport is a fool's hope. VAR is necessary to eliminate a lot of these and bias issues as well.

Having a separate body in charge of VAR seems the first and most obvious solution. Why isn't that something that is proposed or about to happen?

A separate body holding Refs to accountability for their performances? I don't see them ever agreeing to that.
 
This seems like an FA task. Doubt PGMLOL have a say beyond a point.

I've became cynical in my old age but I reckon the Refs would throw a tantrum if the FA even suggested it. But it's something that is badly needed as PGMOL's implementation of VAR seems to be what is best to protect them and their Refs egos as opposed to making the most amount of correct decisions in games.
 
I've became cynical in my old age but I reckon the Refs would throw a tantrum if the FA even suggested it. But it's something that is badly needed as PGMOL's implementation of VAR seems to be what is best to protect them and their Refs egos as opposed to making the most amount of correct decisions in games.
I was flabbergasted when they brought in “Referee’s call” directive this year and tried to gaslight us with “fans don’t want the game to be re-refereed, so we will be going with the on field decision more this season”.

We’ve got the technology and we are using it to basically go “yeah that was probably the wrong decision and we’ve got the benefit of replays to show that but we’re not going to use it, we will go with the wrong decision because that’s what fans want”
 
I was flabbergasted when they brought in “Referee’s call” directive this year and tried to gaslight us with “fans don’t want the game to be re-refereed, so we will be going with the on field decision more this season”.

We’ve got the technology and we are using it to basically go “yeah that was probably the wrong decision and we’ve got the benefit of replays to show that but we’re not going to use it, we will go with the wrong decision because that’s what fans want”

Yeah that my reaction too. We're improving things by using the technology less. Eh?
 
It feels like the PGMOL are being difficult with technology because they know it will affect jobs and their control. Or if I’m being cynical technology progression doesn’t give them the control to influence the game. If they bring in automated offsides do we need linesmen for example?

They need to go back to what VAR was trying to achieve which was making the correct decisions without affecting the flow of the game.

I hate that so many fans want rid of it. It was brought in because refs were making so many mistakes. The issue has always been the human error of the referees. VAR can help that provided it’s utilised correctly but it isn’t.

I’d say let the referee manage the game. If they make a mistake the VAR referee notifies the referee and VAR has final decision because they have all the video evidence. Get rid of the onfield video as that waste time. The VAR ref is qualified so why does the onfield ref need to make the decision. Remove the egos and it will improve.
 
I still don’t understand how they can’t do something like have a sensor in every footballers boots , sling with a sensor in the ball , with instant data available. Change the offside rule and have the tip of boot being the offside judge.

This way, offside is an automatic buzz in refs ear like goaline tech.

The offside rule was supposed to just stop hatching, it doesn’t have to be dogmatically protected.
 
I've said it before, but mic the refs and the VAR up and let everyone hear the conversation.
For the Arsenal red card, Oliver should be saying something like "I saw the players studs rake down the opposing player's achilles, I think that should be serious foul play and a red card. Any reason for me to not give the red card?". Then its transparent and at least if the end decision is still wrong, we can hear why and not weeks later only on a limited number of incidents.
In the example above, VAR should say "Here is a replay, it doesn't look like achilles and it doesn't seem overly forceful, so doesn't meet red card threshold in my opinion" = correct decision made.
 
The top referees earn about 100k a year, hardly a pittance!
Mate, a top 4 Academy graduate signing a new contract earns that in a month. You cannot have that level on income disparity for a purported professional body and expect to have a high quality output.
 
The top referees earn about 100k a year, hardly a pittance!

In the grand scheme of things yes it is. The players they are trying to control sometimes earn multiples of that a week. They should be on a lot more money, especially if you want to attract elite people into the role and have the highest standards.

Who'd put up with the shit and scrutiny they get for 100k a year? I'd want a lot more money if a multi-billion pound industry was scrutinising my decisions across every form of media in practically every country in the World.
 
It feels like the PGMOL are being difficult with technology because they know it will affect jobs and their control. Or if I’m being cynical technology progression doesn’t give them the control to influence the game. If they bring in automated offsides do we need linesmen for example?

They need to go back to what VAR was trying to achieve which was making the correct decisions without affecting the flow of the game.

I hate that so many fans want rid of it. It was brought in because refs were making so many mistakes. The issue has always been the human error of the referees. VAR can help that provided it’s utilised correctly but it isn’t.

I’d say let the referee manage the game. If they make a mistake the VAR referee notifies the referee and VAR has final decision because they have all the video evidence. Get rid of the onfield video as that waste time. The VAR ref is qualified so why does the onfield ref need to make the decision. Remove the egos and it will improve.

Yep the Ref going to the monitor is pure pantomime to make it seem like his decision hasn't been overturned. I can't remember the last time a Ref has watched a replay on a monitor but ignored the VAR and stuck with his original decision. I imagine it doesn't happen often these days. As you say its a waste of time to protect egos.
 
I was flabbergasted when they brought in “Referee’s call” directive this year and tried to gaslight us with “fans don’t want the game to be re-refereed, so we will be going with the on field decision more this season”.

We’ve got the technology and we are using it to basically go “yeah that was probably the wrong decision and we’ve got the benefit of replays to show that but we’re not going to use it, we will go with the wrong decision because that’s what fans want”

Indeed. The most hostile force towards VAR hasn't been fans but the refs themselves. At least in England. Since it's introduction it's seemed like they’ve done everything in their power to undermine its effectiveness. They're such a precious bunch.

I've believed for a while now VAR (if it's here to stay) should be taken out of their hands and administered by a completely separate group of people. People who have no connection to the Refs. So no more baffling decisions to protect a ref because they're having a bad day.
 
Indeed. The most hostile force towards VAR hasn't been fans but the refs themselves. At least in England. Since it's introduction it's seemed like they’ve done everything in their power to undermine its effectiveness. They're such a precious bunch.

I've believed for a while now VAR (if it's here to stay) should be taken out of their hands and administered by a completely separate group of people. People who have no connection to the Refs. So no more baffling decisions to protect a ref because they're having a bad day.
You won't get those baffling decisions, but you might get others instead.
 
In the grand scheme of things yes it is. The players they are trying to control sometimes earn multiples of that a week. They should be on a lot more money, especially if you want to attract elite people into the role and have the highest standards.

Who'd put up with the shit and scrutiny they get for 100k a year? I'd want a lot more money if a multi-billion pound industry was scrutinising my decisions across every form of media in practically every country in the World.
This is my argument too. Currently the path to refereeing at the top level, despite being a professional vocation in an industry worth billions is actually absurd. It’s not a living wage until you reach the Championship. There’s 21 referees in the Premier League and PGMOL only has 600 on their books.

You’re not going to attract any talent as thing stand and you’re left in a position where you are terrified of upsetting one because there’s a dearth of options to replace them. It’s a boys club at its worst.
 
I've said it before, but mic the refs and the VAR up and let everyone hear the conversation.
For the Arsenal red card, Oliver should be saying something like "I saw the players studs rake down the opposing player's achilles, I think that should be serious foul play and a red card. Any reason for me to not give the red card?". Then its transparent and at least if the end decision is still wrong, we can hear why and not weeks later only on a limited number of incidents.
In the example above, VAR should say "Here is a replay, it doesn't look like achilles and it doesn't seem overly forceful, so doesn't meet red card threshold in my opinion" = correct decision made.
Exactly – basically how it is used in rugby.

The refs there do not feel threatened by VAR – they use it to ensure they have all the evidence so they can make the most informed decision.

And everyone in the crowd and on TV can listen to the conversation – it's not hidden and kept secret.

And yes, the sports are different, but there are still instances where the rugby ref is making a subjective decision. If there is a clash of heads, for example, then the ref will have a range of factors to take into consideration when determining a) if there is a infringement, and b) if so, how severe is the penalty.

Not sure why refs in rugby appear so much more capable than in football? Is it training? Is it personality? Is it protection (as in the fact the players are forced to respect them – there are instant penalties if they argue with the ref's decision)? Is it the clarity of the rules of rugby vs the rules of football?
 
Yes and no. Pro rata it’s an incredible wage, even for a top professional.
And only 21 people earn that amount in a given year.

Where is the motivation for actual talent to follow that path and become a top referee? It’s high risk relatively small reward.

Outside of an already small (and let’s be honest here, odd) pool of people who decide to become a referee at an early age and then pursue that to the highest level, perhaps I’m being incredibly harsh but I’d wager that the actual talent of these people is absolutely pitiful vs the potential talent across the general population who have absolutely no motivation to become a referee on the off chance they might become one of those 21 referees for a decade or so.
 
And only 21 people earn that amount in a given year.

Where is the motivation for actual talent to follow that path and become a top referee? It’s high risk relatively small reward.

Outside of an already small (and let’s be honest here, odd) pool of people who decide to become a referee at an early age and then pursue that to the highest level, perhaps I’m being incredibly harsh but I’d wager that the actual talent of these people is absolutely pitiful vs the potential talent across the general population who have absolutely no motivation to become a referee on the off chance they might become one of those 21 referees for a decade or so.
I agree that more money should be spent on improving the standards. And yes, the current roster of referees do seem like an odd bunch of men. Perhaps it’s the type of character the job attracts, for whatever reason.
 
Thinking purely from a United bias and with Amad's offside goal from Sunday in mind, wouldn't it make sense if you could be played onside by a defender's arm/hand? Sure, an attacker can't score with their arm/hand, but the ball bouncing in off a defender's arm/hand wouldn't scupper the goal being scored. Just a thought.
 
Is that because we create less chances and we are less offensive? City and pool always look refs favorites but could that because they create more and hold the ball more?
You are correct. It could simply be because of other teams being better. However, that doesn’t take away that we seen some shocking decisions against us and feeling is that lot of minor 50/50 decisions go to other teams when we play them. I just want fairness. Nothing else.
 
Weird this was overturned given the PGMOL double down. Right decision though. Ridiculous red card.
 
They didn’t. They doubled down and backed their man. It was an independent FA panel that rescinded the red card.
Hilarious to double down and get told to do one by the panel in half a day.
 
I mean, it wasn’t a red card but I’m not sure what result I wanted from the appeal really. Where do they go from here, at the PGMOL, in light of some excruciating, glaring f*ck ups?

First, Oliver just raises red like there’s zero doubt he’s just seen an act of brutality by the Arsenal player. Then Darren England, who can watch from all angles and also has the power to direct Oliver, backs the decision without even giving Oliver a chance to save himself by now suggesting he take another look. Then, in light of all that and the decision being condemned from pretty unanimously, they double down emphatically within hours. My guess is they feared an appeal from Arsenal so slapped on the bravado in an effort to deter them from appealing.

They need to have a review, and first on the agenda should be to make a referee eview every red card decision, be it a second yellow or a straight red, before he gives his final decision and holds up that card. They need to get these decisions right. I feel this will make them more accountable and less likely to make any spur of the moment biased decisions, knowing that they’d have to scrutinise their own big decisions every time.
 
I mean, it wasn’t a red card but I’m not sure what result I wanted from the appeal really. Where do they go from here, at the PGMOL, in light of some excruciating, glaring f*ck ups?

First, Oliver just raises red like there’s zero doubt he’s just seen an act of brutality by the Arsenal player. Then Darren England, who can watch from all angles and also has the power to direct Oliver, backs the decision without even giving Oliver a chance to save himself by now suggesting he take another look. Then, in light of all that and the decision being condemned from pretty unanimously, they double down emphatically within hours. My guess is they feared an appeal from Arsenal so slapped on the bravado in an effort to deter them from appealing.

They need to have a review, and first on the agenda should be to make a referee eview every red card decision, be it a second yellow or a straight red, before he gives his final decision and holds up that card. They need to get these decisions right. I feel this will make them more accountable and less likely to make any spur of the moment biased decisions, knowing that they’d have to scrutinise their own big decisions every time.
If you're going to review a second yellow card then you need to review all of them because the first one could be nonsense one and the second one entirely valid, that's never happening