VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

[TsuWave]

For starters, it's not about what's good for United. Certainly not in isolation. That would be like arguing for financial rules that effect the whole of football, on the basis of whether they benefit the club I support.

You completely misread the premise and anchor of my post - United was merely an example of one potentially calamitous error being avoided due to VAR intervention. I don't know how that's not apparent by reading that post. And if you start your reply like that, I can't imagine there will be much in the subsequent paragraphs that address my contention point - so I'll just apologise for quoting you

 

[The Hilton]

By an incredibly fractional distance, and according to technology that we know, factually, is not infallible.

It's far less fallible than a decision from a linesman relying on a split-second mental image.

There simply isn't a rational avenue of discussion there; if cutting down on erroneous decisions is your objective, then VAR is objectively more accurate than going without, even with the idiots currently running it doing so badly.

 

[TsuWave]

It's far less fallible than a decision from a linesman relying on a split-second mental image.

There simply isn't a rational avenue of discussion there; if cutting down on erroneous decisions is your objective, then VAR is objectively more accurate than going without, even with the idiots currently running it doing so badly.

Exactly.

 

[Flying high]

You completely misread the premise and anchor of my post - United was merely an example of one potentially calamitous error being avoided due to VAR intervention. I don't know how that's not apparent by reading that post. And if you start your reply like that, I can't imagine there will be much in the subsequent paragraphs that address my contention point - so I'll just apologise for quoting you

I was just trying to let you know where I was coming from regarding my strongly held dislike towards VAR.

I assume you're talking about the borderline offside in the Coventry game? If so, as much as it would have been hugely impactful, I wouldn't call it a calamitous mistake. It was extremely close. But I'm not going to bother writing any more if you can't be bothered to read the response to your own question.

 

[Withnail]

I can’t track the anti-VAR argument when it comes to offsides and it seems a little all over the place.

No one is saying they enjoy waiting for a decision.

No one is saying that they like seeing goals chalked off for an armpit being offside (apart from when they do - e.g. Coventry).

No one is saying that attackers gain an advantage from being centimetres offside.

All I’ve seen being repeatedly stated is that you have to draw the line (both literally and figuratively) somewhere and that introducing more subjectivity will only make things more unclear.

There’s also some circular reasoning going on that seems to be cropping up a lot at the moment.

Step 1 - Argue against something despite being presented with objective empirical evidence to the contrary.

Step 2 - Use that assertion as evidence for your point, e.g. “That we’re even having this argument proves that VAR is a farce, it was supposed to bring certainty and yet all its caused is more confusion.”

The fact that you could (mis)use that line of reasoning for literally any debate should set alarm bells off that possibly we are no longer arguing in entirely in good faith.

I think it’s easy to romanticise the past. Conceding offside goals and having perfectly good goals chalked off was incredibly frustrating.

The automated offsides should fix the waiting and celebration issues. You’ll still have decision being made with fine margins as they are now, but that’s no different from goal line technology.

You probably can't track it because you seem to have attempted to merge the opinions of various posters together when they aren't a homogeneous group and haven't come to any consensus.

Also I'm not sure why you're pointing out things like the following:

No one is saying that attackers gain an advantage from being centimetres offside

Nobody has to be saying that for someone to use the fact that, in their opinion, no advantage was gained as a basis for their argument as to why the rules should change.

 

[Daydreamer]

You probably can't track it because you seem to have attempted to merge the opinions of various posters together when they aren't a homogeneous group and haven't come to any consensus.

Fair enough, I'll address one person. As far as I can see from what you've written all those points apply to you.

Nobody has to be saying that for someone to use the fact that, in their opinion, no advantage was gained as a basis for their argument as to why the rules should change.

Of course not, but that’s would be discussing changing the offside law. The title of the thread and the topic of discussion is about VAR, refs and linesmen - not the laws of the game.

 

[Withnail]

Fair enough, I'll address one person. As far as I can see from what you've written all those points apply to you.

You probably should have just done that in the first place so. I would have clarified that I'm not anti-VAR at all. If you were reading my posts with the misconception I wanted VAR removed, its understandable that they confused you.

Of course not, but that’s would be discussing changing the offside law. The title of the thread and the topic of discussion is about VAR, refs and linesmen - not the laws of the game.

Fair enough if your point is that the discussion is in fact off topic and should have its own thread.

However, the introduction of technology has already caused rule changes and it necessitates rule changes in many instances because if you stick with the same rules you can end up with unintended consequences and laws which are no longer fit for purpose.

 

[OldSchoolManc]

So apparently, VAR was ‘Frightened to overturn Oliver’s’ decision.
This leads me to wonder what the hell Oliver has over his fellow referees and PGMOL.
Sounds dodgy as fekk

 

[T_Model101]

So apparently, VAR was ‘Frightened to overturn Oliver’s’ decision.
This leads me to wonder what the hell Oliver has over his fellow referees and PGMOL.
Sounds dodgy as fekk

It's all about ego sadly. As the most senior ref, they can't be seen to overrule him.
Absolutely ludicrous.
The system should work to help the ref and actively overrule if the panel believes he has missed something due to human error

 

[Withnail]

So apparently, VAR was ‘Frightened to overturn Oliver’s’ decision.
This leads me to wonder what the hell Oliver has over his fellow referees and PGMOL.
Sounds dodgy as fekk

It seems like that came from Warnock on Ref Watch. He doesn't say that the information came from the refs so it could well be just his opinion.

Michael Oliver's our number one referee; the VAR booth don't want to overturn his decision because they are frightened he's the main guy and our top referee and I think there's still that element of that talk going on

Gallagher actually makes a good point and said it shouldn't have been a red. He said that Oliver gave the red because he thought that the challenge was studs to the achilles and, obviously, that Oliver should have relayed that to the VAR who in turn should have told him that that's not what happened and sent him into the screen.

https://www.skysports.com/football/...s-lewis-skellys-red-card-says-stephen-warnock

 

[Daydreamer]

You probably should have just done that in the first place so. I would have clarified that I'm not anti-VAR at all. If you were reading my posts with the misconception I wanted VAR removed, its understandable that they confused you.



Fair enough if your point is that the discussion is in fact off topic and should have its own thread.

However, the introduction of technology has already caused rule changes and it necessitates rule changes in many instances because if you stick with the same rules you can end up with unintended consequences and laws which are no longer fit for purpose.

Yeah fair play, I misinterpreted you. Posts like this…

We'll have that Hawkeye shit soon so be prepared for the skin of their kneecap or the very tip of their boots ruling out goals.

Led me to believe that you were generally against using tech to make offside calls, but if you say you’re not then I’ll take you at your word.

 

[Owen Hargo]

Those margin are somehow always ending in negative way for us.


How can people be certain that it is offside is beyond me.

Isn’t this how we won the last FA cup? I’m still not even sure that Coventry goal was offside or not.

 

[OldSchoolManc]

Isn’t this how we won the last FA cup? I’m still not even sure that Coventry goal was offside or not.

Hmm, ‘newbie’ claims to be a United fan then says the offside Coventry goal was dubious.
It was offside and congrats on staying a newbie forever

 

[90 + 5min]

It seems like that came from Warnock on Ref Watch. He doesn't say that the information came from the refs so it could well be just his opinion.



Gallagher actually makes a good point and said it shouldn't have been a red. He said that Oliver gave the red because he thought that the challenge was studs to the achilles and, obviously, that Oliver should have relayed that to the VAR who in turn should have told him that that's not what happened and sent him into the screen.

https://www.skysports.com/football/...s-lewis-skellys-red-card-says-stephen-warnock

It was not red. Simple. You don’t need Gallagher to tell you that. Former referee that somehow missed to give red card for one of worst elbows I have seen and can remember watching football. And there have been lot of ugly tackles and elbows.

Isn’t this how we won the last FA cup? I’m still not even sure that Coventry goal was offside or not.

Tight call but offside. Since Ferguson left we have been more unlucky than lucky when it comes to decisions.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Isn’t this how we won the last FA cup? I’m still not even sure that Coventry goal was offside or not.

Then their penalty was basically a load of rubbish so swings and roundabouts.

 

[NICanRed]

Beachryan wrote - "The point of offsides was to stop attacking teams gaining an advantage by 'leaving' a player up the pitch. Not to stop attacking teams scoring goals because of a hair's breadth of two incredibly fast athletes moving at pace. But, this is where we are, and the rule has been turned into one of the most crucial parts fo defending."

This may be true and the discussion here shows how difficult a decision can be whether using eyeballs or AI technology. There will always be debate. Do we really need off-side. If there are goal-hangers at both ends of the pitch there is equal opportunity for each team. Smart managers would soon figure out strategies for defence and attack. We would likely have more goals and that wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

[Withnail]

It was not red. Simple. You don’t need Gallagher to tell you that. Former referee that somehow missed to give red card for one of worst elbows I have seen and can remember watching football. And there have been lot of ugly tackles and elbows

Completely irrelevant to the point I was making. Well done.

 

[Red in STL]

Beachryan wrote - "The point of offsides was to stop attacking teams gaining an advantage by 'leaving' a player up the pitch. Not to stop attacking teams scoring goals because of a hair's breadth of two incredibly fast athletes moving at pace. But, this is where we are, and the rule has been turned into one of the most crucial parts fo defending."

This may be true and the discussion here shows how difficult a decision can be whether using eyeballs or AI technology. There will always be debate. Do we really need off-side. If there are goal-hangers at both ends of the pitch there is equal opportunity for each team. Smart managers would soon figure out strategies for defence and attack. We would likely have more goals and that wouldn't be a bad thing.,

The game would likely be more boring TBH, defenses would be sat back and space condensed, 90% of midfielders would be redundant as only 'Bruno' types would have the passing skills to open up defenses

Players all have sensors on these days, add one in the ball and that's something that could be used to determine postions on the pitch, it can be calculated without humans and given computing power these days would take seconds

 

[NotChatGPT]

So apparently, VAR was ‘Frightened to overturn Oliver’s’ decision.
This leads me to wonder what the hell Oliver has over his fellow referees and PGMOL.
Sounds dodgy as fekk

It shouldn’t be much of a surprise. First and foremost, Howard Webb has repeatedly gone on about decisions on the pitch and the high threshold for intervening. It was highlighted before the start of this season as well. The way VAR is operated in England means that the importance of decisions made on the pitch ranks higher than getting things right. Essentially, if a referee makes a decision having seen the incident, they’ll be asking themselves if it’s a clear and obvious feck up and while they’re asking that question it’s in the back of their minds that their boss, Webb, isn’t a fan of VAR getting involved. I’d say that first and foremost they’re looking for excuses not to get involved, because that increases the chances of being demoted.

Secondly, the referee in question is the highest ranked referee in England, the golden boy of the PGMOL, which just brings me back to the first point. He’s looking straight at the situation and sending him to the monitor is essentially the same as disagreeing with his interpretation of the situation, good luck with that. It’s an easy way out to simply go with the studs high up and it’s then a case of interpretation and then it’s left to the referee on the pitch rather than an obvious mistake.

 

[The Cat]

It shouldn’t be much of a surprise. First and foremost, Howard Webb has repeatedly gone on about decisions on the pitch and the high threshold for intervening. It was highlighted before the start of this season as well. The way VAR is operated in England means that the importance of decisions made on the pitch ranks higher than getting things right. Essentially, if a referee makes a decision having seen the incident, they’ll be asking themselves if it’s a clear and obvious feck up and while they’re asking that question it’s in the back of their minds that their boss, Webb, isn’t a fan of VAR getting involved. I’d say that first and foremost they’re looking for excuses not to get involved, because that increases the chances of being demoted.

Secondly, the referee in question is the highest ranked referee in England, the golden boy of the PGMOL, which just brings me back to the first point. He’s looking straight at the situation and sending him to the monitor is essentially the same as disagreeing with his interpretation of the situation, good luck with that. It’s an easy way out to simply go with the studs high up and it’s then a case of interpretation and then it’s left to the referee on the pitch rather than an obvious mistake.

This is my biggest problem with it all. It shouldn't matter who the ref is if you think he needs to look again it should be done. The system is pointless otherwise.

It's not like he's a national hero.

 

[Oranges038]

The game would likely be more boring TBH, defenses would be sat back and space condensed, 90% of midfielders would be redundant as only 'Bruno' types would have the passing skills to open up defenses

Players all have sensors on these days, add one in the ball and that's something that could be used to determine postions on the pitch, it can be calculated without humans and given computing power these days would take seconds

Isn't this pretty much how semi automated offsides work?

 

[NotChatGPT]

The offside rule is perfectly fine as it is.

The last thing we need is a rule for offside that ends up being similar to the handball rule, which is a complete mess because they’re all fecking morons.

 

[Red in STL]

Isn't this pretty much how semi automated offsides work?

No idea how it works TBH

 

[NotChatGPT]

This is my biggest problem with it all. It shouldn't matter who the ref is if you think he needs to look again it should be done. The system is pointless otherwise.

It's not like he's a national hero.

It matters because of point 1, how VAR is supposed to be operated. Also, Michael Oliver is fairly untouchable. The penalty he essentially awarded West Ham is a major feck up on two levels:
1: It’s obviously not a penalty, which Webb admitted
2: VAR should’ve stayed the feck out of the situation as the referee on the pitch had a clear view of the situation and waved it away as nothing in it

What was the consequences for Michael Oliver?

«Oh that was unlike him» and he was back on the roster for the next round of PL matches.

The biggest problem is the concept that VAR should look for reasons not to get involved rather than reasons to get involved.

 

[Red in STL]

The offside rule is perfectly fine as it is.

The last thing we need is a rule for offside that ends up being similar to the handball rule, which is a complete mess because they’re all fecking morons.

There is one bit that could be changed, a fixed point on the body for determining whether you are offside, say it's a foot, the rest of the body is irrelevant

 

[Oranges038]

No idea how it works TBH

I looked it up, for the WC22 it was system of cameras that monitored the players movements and position of the ball 50 times per second, used AI as well to work out offside with 4 people watching a load of screens.

All that just to take over from 2 men with flags.

 

[The Cat]

It matters because of point 1, how VAR is supposed to be operated. Also, Michael Oliver is fairly untouchable. The penalty he essentially awarded West Ham is a major feck up on two levels:
1: It’s obviously not a penalty, which Webb admitted
2: VAR should’ve stayed the feck out of the situation as the referee on the pitch had a clear view of the situation and waved it away as nothing in it

What was the consequences for Michael Oliver?

«Oh that was unlike him» and he was back on the roster for the next round of PL matches.

The biggest problem is the concept that VAR should look for reasons not to get involved rather than reasons to get involved.

So it shouldn't matter then.

 

[Withnail]

I looked it up, for the WC22 it was system of cameras that monitored the players movements and position of the ball 50 times per second, used AI as well to work out offside with 4 people watching a load of screens.

All that just to take over from 2 men with flags.

Well to be fair the two men with flags were guessing at best.

It's impossible to see the position of the players at the exact moment the ball is kicked, because you'd have to be watching the player on the ball, and not the player who's potentially offside.

 

[NotChatGPT]

There is one bit that could be changed, a fixed point on the body for determining whether you are offside, say it's a foot, the rest of the body is irrelevant

By all means, but that will also result in quite a few unwanted situations with headers inside the box and players leaning forward. I don’t really have a problem with the current version and «any parts you can score with»

 

[NotChatGPT]

So it shouldn't matter then.

In an ideal world, it shouldn’t.

But it’s easy to see why it matters.

 

[Red in STL]

I looked it up, for the WC22 it was system of cameras that monitored the players movements and position of the ball 50 times per second, used AI as well to work out offside with 4 people watching a load of screens.

All that just to take over from 2 men with flags.

Sounds like jobs for the boys!

 

[Red in STL]

By all means, but that will also result in quite a few unwanted situations with headers inside the box and players leaning forward. I don’t really have a problem with the current version and «any parts you can score with»

True but with a fixed part it's clearer at least

 

[NotChatGPT]

True but with a fixed part it's clearer at least

That’s what she said.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

all this talk about VAR and refs, Alvarez not getting a red in the West Ham/Aston Villa game has gone under the radar

 

[Owen Hargo]

Hmm, ‘newbie’ claims to be a United fan then says the offside Coventry goal was dubious.
It was offside and congrats on staying a newbie forever

Too defensive. I don’t spend much time here logged in. I read more type less and attribute this to English being my second language, a die hard United fan, but let’s be real, we create very little chances the odds 50/50 decisions go in our favor will always be less.

 

[Owen Hargo]

It was not red. Simple. You don’t need Gallagher to tell you that. Former referee that somehow missed to give red card for one of worst elbows I have seen and can remember watching football. And there have been lot of ugly tackles and elbows.


Tight call but offside. Since Ferguson left we have been more unlucky than lucky when it comes to decisions.

Is that because we create less chances and we are less offensive? City and pool always look refs favorites but could that because they create more and hold the ball more?

 

[Owen Hargo]

Then their penalty was basically a load of rubbish so swings and roundabouts.

Yes agree with you. I would have rather we lost that game and got rid of EtH then. Life would have been much better now. But who knows.

 

[Owen Hargo]

There is one bit that could be changed, a fixed point on the body for determining whether you are offside, say it's a foot, the rest of the body is irrelevant

Makes it almost impossible for linesman to determine offsides. They depends on shirts and head movements. Feet can be tricky way to determine from an eye-level perspective, especially at free-kicks.

 

[Red in STL]

Makes it almost impossible for linesman to determine offsides. They depends on shirts and head movements. Feet can be tricky way to determine from an eye-level perspective, especially at free-kicks.

I gave feet as an example as a fixed point, it could be whatever part of the body, and this would be from a VAR perspective, currently the decision is made matching up various parts of the body, is a foot further forward than a hip, is a head further forward thana shoulder - there at eye=level, itisn't a linesman to judge any version of a close offside, it's impossible to do so

 

[LDUred]

Another thing that irritates me is how tough it is on the assistant referees. Obviously, VAR has the effect of holding them to an impossible standard.

They could definitely introduce something equivalent to 'umpire's call' in cricket so that decent decisions on-field aren't undermined.

I know it's been said a million times, but why can't clubs all agree on it. It makes sense and it has a precedent in sport that has been accepted as just.