VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

Pogue Mahone said:
Just to add to this. It’s obviously no coincidence that the tinfoil hat conspiracy stuff has gone through the roof since VAR was introduced. The technology that was supposed to appease fans that feel the referees are out to get their team has ended up radicalising these fans even further. It’s had the exact opposite effect to what was intended.
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This is about as spurious nomination of a cause as I've seen. We don't know why there is an increase of tin foil opinions or even if there is one. That can be, provided it's true, down to any number of social factors.
Since we are doing frivolous ascribing of causality I could say that all this talk of everything being subjective and there being no clear and objective standard and similar spiel, has pushed people towards indulging the worse part of their nature all the more, with very little check to their subjectivity, producing a force multiplier to fatuous conspiracy talk as a consequence. Since there is no objectivity, we should push this subjective thing to its limit. Yes, why wouldn't my beloved club be victimised by the whole refereeing crew (including VAR), one needs only to look at all the Liverpool pundits they allow on telly, on a daily basis!
 
Football missed a trick by trying to operate a one-size-fits-all VAR system.

Referee decisions should be final, and each manager should have a set number of challenges per half/per game to look at something which looks questionable.

They shouldn’t be allowed live footage or replays on the bench either imo.

It was refreshing to watch a game where celebrating or being frustrated was instantaneous and not based on waiting for a man in Stockley Park to support his mate.
 
Moonwalker said:
This is about as spurious nomination of a cause as I've seen. We don't know why there is an increase of tin foil opinions or even if there is one. That can be, provided it's true, down to any number of social factors.
Since we are doing frivolous ascribing of causality I could say that all this talk of everything being subjective and there being no clear and objective standard and similar spiel, has pushed people towards indulging the worse part of their nature all the more, with very little check to their subjectivity, producing a force multiplier to fatuous conspiracy talk as a consequence. Since there is no objectivity, we should push this subjective thing to its limit. Yes, why wouldn't my beloved club be victimised by the whole refereeing crew (including VAR), one needs only to look at all the Liverpool pundits they allow on telly, on a daily basis!
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Parklife!
 
NotoriousISSY said:
Football missed a trick by trying to operate a one-size-fits-all VAR system.

Referee decisions should be final, and each manager should have a set number of challenges per half/per game to look at something which looks questionable.

They shouldn’t be allowed live footage or replays on the bench either imo.

It was refreshing to watch a game where celebrating or being frustrated was instantaneous and not based on waiting for a man in Stockley Park to support his mate.
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Really? Nothing refreshing about their disastrous penalty given or Havertz' throat grab not being reviewed.
 
NotoriousISSY said:
Football missed a trick by trying to operate a one-size-fits-all VAR system.

Referee decisions should be final, and each manager should have a set number of challenges per half/per game to look at something which looks questionable.

They shouldn’t be allowed live footage or replays on the bench either imo.

It was refreshing to watch a game where celebrating or being frustrated was instantaneous and not based on waiting for a man in Stockley Park to support his mate.
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I actually commented after our goal that it was nice just to celebrate it, but that was swiftly forgotten during that penalty debacle.
 
I don't know why they voted against the semi-automatic offside technology. I think 90% of VAR checks and waiting time is for the stupid lines to be drawn.

If VAR would not delay the game as much, I think it would be much more accepted.

However, the implementation is still not good enough after all these years.
 
matsdf said:
Really? Nothing refreshing about their disastrous penalty given or Havertz' throat grab not being reviewed.
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Do you think they would’ve overturned that penalty and not thrown the book at all the players in that scuffle?

VAR doesn’t improve that game yesterday.
 
VAR would be so much better if the bar on “referee’s call” was reduced. The referee needs to be sent to the screen more.
 
NotoriousISSY said:
Do you think they would’ve overturned that penalty and not thrown the book at all the players in that scuffle?

VAR doesn’t improve that game yesterday.
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Agreed that VAR doesn't impove the overall game, however, I think VAR improves the game in one instance, which was the penalty decision. In its current incarnation it does not prevent all the soft fouls the ref gave to them and all the stupid yellow cards he gave to us which I think is the main driver for the feeling of injustice.

The standard of officiating has been in decline for years, and has been accelarated by the introduction of VAR as it has increased the pressure and focus on the individual referees. PGMOL's response has been to shove their fingers in the ears even deeper and scream "LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU" even louder as evidenced by the idiot they wheel out on Sky to defend decisions. It's not helped by the television pundits flat out refusing to call it out either.

It's then left to fan accounts on social media who are incentivised by algorithms to go for the most sensationalist take possible to get the views.

PGMOL need to stop protecting the boys, pick up a copy of Black Box Thinking by Matthew Syed and figure out a way to improve the standard of the refs.
 
NotChatGPT said:
Not sure why people have such a hard on for VAR to be removed. The fundamental flaws are a result of the governing body and the people operating it, rather than VAR itself. We were inches away from being fecked over by a dodgy penalty decision and Havertz handballing before fluffing his shot. By all means, maybe VAR wouldn’t have overturned the penalty, in the long run i think it’s more likely it would’ve.
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True but the governing body and the refs using it aren't likely to get any more competent any time soon.

VAR has just given them an extra medium to display their incompetence.
 
brian017 said:
VAR would be so much better if the bar on “referee’s call” was reduced. The referee needs to be sent to the screen more.
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NFL has it right from a justice and integrity of the game perspective (though the refs also make mistakes and bullshit calls), however it's a game where the culture allows a lot of breaks in play whereas football fans hate waiting for a couple of mins so we end up here
 
Drainy said:
NFL has it right from a justice and integrity of the game perspective (though the refs also make mistakes and bullshit calls), however it's a game where the culture allows a lot of breaks in play whereas football fans hate waiting for a couple of mins so we end up here
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I don't get why they don't have more 2 way communication like rugby, I'm not an expert but whenever I've watched it the ref says something along the lines of "VAR any reason why I can't give this try". Much more proactive and it gives them a sense of working together rather than having someone marking their homework.
 
The standard of officiating has dropped since VAR. They think if they miss something VAR will catch it.

Martinez yellow card. Barely touched Jesus, I'm sure Jesus told the ref it wasn't Martinez fault afterwards.

Jesus challenge on Bruno, caught Bruno as he's taking a shot, he's not going to get a shot away like he wanted to.

Penalty was a dive, but I reckon VAR would have backed it up.
 
stevoc said:
True but the governing body and the refs using it aren't likely to get any more competent any time soon.

VAR has just given them an extra medium to display their incompetence.
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Which is why, for me, the obvious solution is having someone else be in charge of VAR and open everything up. Instead of making a split decision on a potential foul the referee can let play continue ala what they’re supposed to do for offsides, and then if it’s a goal he can state that he’s unsure of a situation and he’d like to review it because he’s not sure how much contact there was. It would make things a lot easier to accept, rather than an arbitrary threshold
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Even if you ignore all the refereeing stuff it was so refreshing to watch a game where the linesman’s flag is final. A breath of fresh air. And offside is the one and only thing VAR gets consistently right. If removing the only thing it is really good at makes a game so much better as a spectacle that brings it home how the whole VAR farce is utterly pointless.
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Personally I’m way more anxious about offsides without VAR, especially given our recent record with referees. So I’m not sure that you can really extrapolate your own experience as something objective.
 
GiveItToGi...nowait said:
I don't get why they don't have more 2 way communication like rugby, I'm not an expert but whenever I've watched it the ref says something along the lines of "VAR any reason why I can't give this try". Much more proactive and it gives them a sense of working together rather than having someone marking their homework.
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Have you listened to any of the audio they have released? It's amateur hour.

It should be really simple, but they don't communicate anything clearly.

Every exchange should begin with the referee explaining the current, on-field decision, VAR explaining what they're checking (and if appropriate, the player(s) involved), and end with VAR clarifying what the on-field decision should be and the outcome of such.

If I remember correctly, Liverpool had that goal against Spurs chalked off last season because the on-field decision was "disallowed" and VAR simply communicated "all good". The ref took this to mean his decision was correct, and not that the goal should have stood.
 
It's quite a wounding thing to be likened to Russell Brand. Worse still, he usually comes up with grandiloquent nonsense in real time, having not even the benefit afforded to me, of time to compose thoughts while writing.

I still think the really funny thing there was not what I wrote but the proposition I was responding to - that VAR is the cause of conspiracy theories. That was eminently more laughable.
 
Moonwalker said:
It's quite a wounding thing to be likened to Russell Brand. Worse still, he usually comes up with grandiloquent nonsense in real time, having not even the benefit afforded to me, of time to compose thoughts while writing.

I still think the really funny thing there was not what I wrote but the proposition I was responding to - that VAR is the cause of conspiracy theories. That was eminently more laughable.
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What's Russell Brand got to do with Blur?
 
deef said:
I don't know why they voted against the semi-automatic offside technology. I think 90% of VAR checks and waiting time is for the stupid lines to be drawn.

If VAR would not delay the game as much, I think it would be much more accepted.

However, the implementation is still not good enough after all these years.
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It was voted in but it is still been tested. It was delayed until 2025 in October so I’d imagine it’ll be in for the 2025/26 season.
 
brian017 said:
VAR would be so much better if the bar on “referee’s call” was reduced. The referee needs to be sent to the screen more.
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Or they could do what they do in rugby, stop the clock, show it on the big screen and let everyone hear the conversation. The biggest issue is how much time it takes them to come to a decision and how haphazard it all seems to be about when to stop the game and pull it back for different decisions.

It was quite refreshing over the weekend to watch the games without it, even if you look at the decisions there's probably less complaining about them because they weren't mulled over by 3 different referees all with different angles and viewpoints.

Biggest talking point after the Utd game should be about how one-sided the referee was. It was a disgraceful display of biased decision making.
 
Alex99 said:
Have you listened to any of the audio they have released? It's amateur hour.

It should be really simple, but they don't communicate anything clearly.

Every exchange should begin with the referee explaining the current, on-field decision, VAR explaining what they're checking (and if appropriate, the player(s) involved), and end with VAR clarifying what the on-field decision should be and the outcome of such.

If I remember correctly, Liverpool had that goal against Spurs chalked off last season because the on-field decision was "disallowed" and VAR simply communicated "all good". The ref took this to mean his decision was correct, and not that the goal should have stood.
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Jesus Christ, its comical that a sport and league as lucrative as the Premier League is stuck with these PGMOL buffoons. It's so simple to fix as well, examine the mistakes without looking to assign blame and come up with a process that gives the officials the best chance of not making a mistake.

The airline industry cracked this years and years ago.
 
harms said:
Personally I’m way more anxious about offsides without VAR, especially given our recent record with referees. So I’m not sure that you can really extrapolate your own experience as something objective.
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Nothing to do with anxiety. I just like to get an instant answer. Camera cuts to linesman. Flag up = offside. Flag down = onside. Perfect. Having to wait for fecking ages wondering if some twat might draw lines on a screen is the antithesis of what I enjoy about football. We are also spared the ludicrous sight of watching play continue when everyone can see the guy receiving the pass was yards offside. It was an absolute joy to leave all that bollox behind for 120 minutes.

Although it did make me sad about the return of VAR at the weekend :(
 
NotChatGPT said:
Not sure why people have such a hard on for VAR to be removed. The fundamental flaws are a result of the governing body and the people operating it, rather than VAR itself. We were inches away from being fecked over by a dodgy penalty decision and Havertz handballing before fluffing his shot. By all means, maybe VAR wouldn’t have overturned the penalty, in the long run i think it’s more likely it would’ve.
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Maybe you're confusing the concept of the correct decision being reached through the use of video replays, with the current implementation of VAR.

I'm not against the use of replays in some circumstances, maybe, as long as the parameters are well defined and consistent. But from the very start it was obvious that the PL hadn't come up with a system which was fit for purpose. This should be clear to everyone by now.


I believe the best solution for football is to change the refereeing model: Until an automatic offside system is proven reliable enough to eliminate linesmen, we add an extra official or 2. All officials are able to call an offence on an equal basis, but are instructed to do so ONLY if they are CERTAIN. This would hopefully change the mindset of the refs who feel the need to be strong and decisive in their decisions, even when it's clear they didn't have a good angle to actually see what happened, because the buck stops with just a single person. Some mistakes will still happen of course, so maybe that's where we introduce a limited appeal system which can lead the refs to look at a screen for clarification.
 
Do we think Havertz takes that dive if VAR is in operation?

I mean probably, because he's a knob... but I do think VAR deters that sort of thing in general... it's been a while since I've seen one of those manufactured dives/penalties.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Do we think Havertz takes that dive if VAR is in operation?

I mean probably, because he's a knob... but I do think VAR deters that sort of thing in general... it's been a while since I've seen one of those manufactured dives/penalties.
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I'm genuinely not convinced that VAR necessarily overturns that decision 100% of the time.

Can definitely see them awarding that based off three frames, zoomed in to show Maguire making the tiniest bit of contact.
 
VAR or not is not the issue yesterday. Like the example above, the ref was calling everything against us. VAR wouldn’t overturn them decisions.

That ref was awful, allowed Arsenal so much time on corners and free kicks so they could plan what routine. He added time on to the added time when Arsenal were attacking.

There is no consistency in football anymore, one ref allows hard tackles and then one doesn’t. That’s the major issue, I thought football was a contact sport but not anymore.
 
Think that like many workplaces there could be an agenda/perspective between staff on the floor(the referees) that the management group can’t do much about/are left out.

In this case I wouldn’t be surprised if United are one of the teams they like fecking over a bit extra just to get some praise in the staff group chat. Easy for them to hide this when they are as protected as they are.

Getting to the point where perhaps referees from abroad should do at least some of the games, to ensure as much neutrality as possible. At least when it comes to being in charge of VAR. Never going to happen though.

Should also be a bit more acceptable that managers are more free to openly criticise performances without big reprimands.

Someone mentioned that Chris Kavanagh supports Droylsden and is from Greater Manchester area. Fact that he was put in charge of VAR in the game against Liverpool was absolutely fecking appalling, there is no way that he is completely unbiased.

Like someone mentioned; don’t think VAR is the biggest problem. It’s those in charge of it and the culture amongst them.

Don’t want this to come across as a RAWK-ish conspiracy type of post. But something is genuinely broken within the group of referees. Yesterday was a prime example where even the scouse saw how bad it was, which says a lot.

Don’t expect Madley to get any consequences for last night. At the very worst might do a game in the championship and then to be back calling another big game.
 
Whole thing needs a rethink. They've forgotten it's a spectator sport, no consideration for what we as fans want to see.

But first step is to do something about this faking pain and injury. It's completely out of control.

How about ex pros with their podcasts discussing it now and again?
 
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