VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

Red in STL said:
Do you really think the average Spanish/Italian refs are any better?
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They are if you dont watch those leagues.

I was watching a game a few weeks ago and its the same thing.

Also, if those refs are so much better why is there always rumors about Real getting favored or Barca paying them off?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Like I said, I'm sure they have performance reviews with their bosses. That's why we hear about referees being dropped or not chosen for big games. It's a difficult job and they get a lot of scrutiny from everyone. I don't buy the idea that they operate without any accountability. I also don't care about this refereeing issue half as much as some of you seem to. It is what it is. They do tend to get most decisions right (or, at the very least, you can see why they made them) with only one or two really obvious mistakes in any given match. Same as most footballers.
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I don't care about it that much either, all this corruption talk and favoritism is IMO complete bollocks, every fan or every team reckon the refs are against them

It's an impossible job that's made even harder with the propensity of players to make a meal out of everything and throw a 'thrupenny bit' when it doesn't go their way

That said I think we all need some kind of explanation for the ref yesterday, that was probably the most incompetent performance I've seen in years!
 
romufc said:
They are if you dont watch those leagues.

I was watching a game a few weeks ago and its the same thing.

Also, if those refs are so much better why is there always rumors about Real getting favored or Barca paying them off?
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I don't watch those leagues but I've see enough European games over the years to know they're no better or worse, indeed I think they'd be worse because the 'blood & thunder' of English football wouldn't be tolerated as much as it is here
 
Would be happy to trial refs from the Bundesliga and Ligue 1.

Let's be honest, the EPL probably has the worst bunch of referees in most of Europe. To have fans of rival clubs admit United have been cheated says everything.

I've honestly not seen a worse performance than Madley's since the South Korea World Cup debacle. Another one that sticks in the memory is Craig Pawson in the semi-final against Brighton during Ten Hag's first year.
 
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NotChatGPT said:
Which is why, for me, the obvious solution is having someone else be in charge of VAR and open everything up. Instead of making a split decision on a potential foul the referee can let play continue ala what they’re supposed to do for offsides, and then if it’s a goal he can state that he’s unsure of a situation and he’d like to review it because he’s not sure how much contact there was. It would make things a lot easier to accept, rather than an arbitrary threshold
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Yeah I want VAR gone but that seems unlikely. My next preference would be for it to be taken over by people who have no connection to the on pitch refs.

Far too often it seems like VARs priority is to protect the Ref as opposed trying to ensure the correct decision is arrived at.
 
Red in STL said:
I don't watch those leagues but I've see enough European games over the years to know they're no better or worse, indeed I think they'd be worse because the 'blood & thunder' of English football wouldn't be tolerated as much as it is here
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This is always the case though... people who think grass is always greener elsewhere.

All countries have the same issues with refereeing.

I have also watched alot of European CL / EL games to know you cannot tell sometimes that its a foreign ref.. they make just as many mistakes.
 
you must do something truly awful that even neutral fans want to side with United.
Jesus...even Sunday League has better refereeing.
 
ManUnitedCanuck said:
Have thought about this, how would it be implemented? Manager would have to make an instantaneous decision or the ball would be put back in play and it cannot be reviewed. Or would you suggest they have so much time after an incident to throw their challenge flag? But what if the other team is attacking at that moment etc. Can see it being a bit of a challenge to implement.

I'm just thinking of the NFL system which is a bit easier since there is some time in between plays and they do have access to replays to make a decision before challenging.
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Don’t see how the tennis model couldn’t be utilised?

A perceived bad call is made, the manager immediately calls for one of his reviews and the normal VAR process takes place.

Once’s he’s used his challenges only the referee calls apply thereafter.

Microanalysis of every decision has taken much of the beauty and reaction out of the sport and I think it was highlighted in this round of the cup. Despite Arsenal’s rat behaviour, it’s probably the most enjoyable game I’ve seen in a while because you could react naturally.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
They are anti-football. A team so focused on set pieces, that they do nothing other than attempt to create set piece situations at the expense of all else, including any pretence at actually playing football. They're a horrible aberration and they're clearly miserable like the poor saps stuck in an innovation department in a corporate hellscape managed by some prick who refers to himself as a "disruptor" on his email signature.
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They are a rich man's Stoke from the Tony Pulis days.
 
ManUnitedCanuck said:
Why is there no accountability when it comes to match officials? Why can't they face the press after a match and have to review their performance just like players and managers?

Would it be so bad for them to, once in a while, come out and just say "Hands up, I had a bad day, wasn't my best performance". Instead we see an official like yesterday and it's never addressed, nor do the media want to talk about it. A player has a bad day and costs his team a match and they have to face the gauntlet. These are supposed to be professional referees, take some accountability.
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They’ve done it before, and I think bringing this back would reduce a lot of the heat around refs in the aftermath of games. It reminds you they’re human, and if they own up and apologise for making an error then it’s easier to deal with. As it is these things build and build over a period of months and years as they go unaddressed.

 
”Everything went according to plan and the referee perfectly mishandled the game as per Stockley Pk orders. The penalty was a clear wave in the general direction of the vicinity of a player kicking his feet at you. Every single possible infringement by <insert team here> must be penalised fully. If only Havertz could finish then his Henry tribute would have been perfect. Said player Havertz must be allowed to dive and shithouse repeatedly and zero players of <insert team here> shall be penalised for tactical fouls. Oh - and I’d like to address something that crops up repeatedly about throw ins. No player is considered to have made a foul throw if they have *** ******* ********** hanging over their ***** as that forces them to commit foul throes.”
 
Dr. T said:
”Everything went according to plan and the referee perfectly mishandled the game as per Stockley Pk orders. The penalty was a clear wave in the general direction of the vicinity of a player kicking his feet at you. Every single possible infringement by <insert team here> must be penalised fully. If only Havertz could finish then his Henry tribute would have been perfect. Said player Havertz must be allowed to dive and shithouse repeatedly and zero players of <insert team here> shall be penalised for tactical fouls. Oh - and I’d like to address something that crops up repeatedly about throw ins. No player is considered to have made a foul throw if they have *** ******* ********** hanging over their ***** as that forces them to commit foul throes.”
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See you have your tin foil hat on, you do realise that Stockley Park is the VAR hub for the PL and this was a game in the FA Cup that didn't have VAR in operation
 
If this was a game in the champions league, or Europa league, and it was a foreign ref who made the same decisions in a game between let's say Tottenham Vs Villarreal, the media in the UK would be going mental about how shite the ref was. Scrutinising every decision for the next 4 days and making a huge deal of it.

Just a few words here and there for our match, and that's basically just trying to get Ugarte banned.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I honestly can't get my head around the sort of sad sacks who would a) demand and b) read such a report. I'm sure the referee's performances are reviewed and they're accountable to their employer. I have absolutely no interest in getting involved in that process, personally.
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Unfortunately I'm not certain how accountable they are. They will move a ref to the championship for a week based on a previous performance, and then the next week they are back up handling the key fixture of that weekend. Honestly sometimes it seems as though they are just trolling the fans with some of the decisions.

We saw it recently with an official under heat of how they treat a particular team then being given that team's match or a clear rivals match. They know what they are doing when they make these decisions. I think that is the problem fans have, we are just to have faith in the process but then see these examples. Why not have someone like Webb speak on behalf of the officials and provide context on performances instead of having to wait for a monthly TV show where he handpicks incidents to review, stating that provides more transparency.
 
To me this game once again showed why I see the introduction of VAR as a great step forward and don't want to do without it anymore.

How it cut down on diving and backhanded feckery outside the ref's notice like the throat-grab this game alone is more than worth it for me.
I've also never felt my enjoyment of a goal strongly impacted by waiting for a validation by the VAR - I celebrate it all the same in the moment, and enjoy it a little bit again when it gets confirmed. If not getting blatantly wrong offside calls (or the lack of one) means I have to wait a few seconds until I really know if something was a goal, then I'll take that without a second thought.
On the other side it can spoil the enjoyment of a goal - and even a victory - for me if it was achieved on the back of something that should not have stood.

Don't get me wrong, there are big issues with the consistent and timely application of the VAR, the angles and speeds they show scenes, etc. But overall, to me, VAR has been a massive improvement to the game.
 
Red in STL said:
I don't care about it that much either, all this corruption talk and favoritism is IMO complete bollocks, every fan or every team reckon the refs are against them

It's an impossible job that's made even harder with the propensity of players to make a meal out of everything and throw a 'thrupenny bit' when it doesn't go their way

That said I think we all need some kind of explanation for the ref yesterday, that was probably the most incompetent performance I've seen in years!
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That's a fair point, but then I think they need to show more authority on the pitch, or find ways to support them to stop the players from throwing themselves on the floor. Players start swarming you tell them it's not going to continue to happen...next time a yellow card. Player dives book them, instead of just waving play on, then you will start to see that removed from the game. Also, they should start looking at using VAR to restrospectively ban or book players for diving. It continues to happen as there is no repercussion and only upside for the player to do so. Look at Havertz yesterday, goes down in a heap when Ugarte is near him...nothing happens to him and only other possible outcome is he gets someone sent off. He also dives for the penalty and gets it....why wouldn't you continue to dive...there is no downside and a ton of upside.

The amount of stuff that is creeping in the game, because we don't want to "break the flow of the game" is the problem. Could be addressed quickly if they start showing authority and taking control instead of allowing things to happen.

It's a tough job, but you are the one in control of the match, don't allow players to start running the show like we see often.
 
I’ve been thinking about VAR and I’ve decided it needs completely scrapping and reimplementing with a different framework.

  1. Teams get 2 appeals for the match.
    1. Unsuccessful appeals are lost, successful appeals are retained.
    2. If both teams use their appeals in the first half, they each start the second half with 1 appeal.
  2. Managers raise the appeal with the 4th official and the match clock is stopped when the ball is next dead. They can either:
    1. Dispute a decision, e.g. a penalty awarded, a red card etc.
    2. Raise an indecent that was missed or waived on (dispute a non-decision). It has to be raised with the 4th official within a certain time and the match is stopped for review when the ball is next dead. e.g. a missed penalty, potential red card check.
  3. Managers have to be specific in the scope of the incident, the players involved and make a case for why it’s a penalty.
  4. The referee goes to the monitor and is presented with ALL available footage and it’s replayed in real time. Slow motion is only used to determine if contact was made.
  5. The referee then goes to explain their decision to both managers and its broadcast to the stadium so players and crowd can hear along with the TV audience at home.
  6. Offsides are handled outside of this process and not subject to appeal, ideally automated.


For me that gives an element of control back to the managers/teams. It gives them an opportunity to raise incidents which are otherwise inexplicably missed or brushed off.


It gives referees an opportunity to explain their decisions and educate us heathens. It also hands power entirely back to them as the role of VAR is reduced to video operators with no opportunity to overrule the in field referee.


Forcing referees to explain their decisions adds an element of pressure and accountability. It’s one thing to have a ridiculous decision, it’s another entirely when you hear a referee sheepishly try to bullshit their reasoning for it when given the opportunity to rectify it.
 
Why didn't the ref check VAR replay for that Havertz incident? it's a simple as spending 2 mins to make sure your decision is correct. And I don't mean glancing at the monitor, walk to the sidelines, pay attention to what happened and make an informed decision free from chaos. Actually I do know why, biased refs won't bother to do that. On the replay it's easy to see Havertz dived even for untrained eyes. Feck off.
 
tenpoless said:
Why didn't the ref check VAR replay for that Havertz incident? it's a simple as spending 2 mins to make sure your decision is correct. And I don't mean glancing at the monitor, walk to the sidelines, pay attention to what happened and make an informed decision free from chaos. Actually I do know why, biased refs won't bother to do that. On the replay it's easy to see Havertz dived even for untrained eyes. Feck off.
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No VAR in the cup until fifth round
 
Red in STL said:
See you have your tin foil hat on, you do realise that Stockley Park is the VAR hub for the PL and this was a game in the FA Cup that didn't have VAR in operation
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don't take things so seriously I can't even remember who I was responding to
 
Pexbo said:
I’ve been thinking about VAR and I’ve decided it needs completely scrapping and reimplementing with a different framework.

  1. Teams get 2 appeals for the match.
    1. Unsuccessful appeals are lost, successful appeals are retained.
    2. If both teams use their appeals in the first half, they each start the second half with 1 appeal.
  2. Managers raise the appeal with the 4th official and the match clock is stopped when the ball is next dead. They can either:
    1. Dispute a decision, e.g. a penalty awarded, a red card etc.
    2. Raise an indecent that was missed or waived on (dispute a non-decision). It has to be raised with the 4th official within a certain time and the match is stopped for review when the ball is next dead. e.g. a missed penalty, potential red card check.
  3. Managers have to be specific in the scope of the incident, the players involved and make a case for why it’s a penalty.
  4. The referee goes to the monitor and is presented with ALL available footage and it’s replayed in real time. Slow motion is only used to determine if contact was made.
  5. The referee then goes to explain their decision to both managers and its broadcast to the stadium so players and crowd can hear along with the TV audience at home.
  6. Offsides are handled outside of this process and not subject to appeal, ideally automated.


For me that gives an element of control back to the managers/teams. It gives them an opportunity to raise incidents which are otherwise inexplicably missed or brushed off.


It gives referees an opportunity to explain their decisions and educate us heathens. It also hands power entirely back to them as the role of VAR is reduced to video operators with no opportunity to overrule the in field referee.


Forcing referees to explain their decisions adds an element of pressure and accountability. It’s one thing to have a ridiculous decision, it’s another entirely when you hear a referee sheepishly try to bullshit their reasoning for it when given the opportunity to rectify it.
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Steps one to three is how video technology is used in field hockey but it's the captain who lodges the appeal. Managers are far too far away from the action to be the best person to decide whether an appeal will be successful or not. The decision has to come from the players. The referees are also allowed to self refer, as many times as they want. Although, obviously, they use this option as little as possible or the game would be ridiculously stop/start. The VAR official is never allowed to intervene without a referral. Step 4 is done by the VAR official but this is with a stopped clock and after the referee has explained why they made the call they did and what the VAR official should look for. The initial discussion between the ref and the VAR official is broadcast to the viewers, as is all the footage they're looking at, in real time. It takes a while though. You're talking at least 3 or 4 minutes each referral but nobody really minds because hockey is played with a stopped clock.



This might work in football but it's a huge change in the way the game is played. I also think you'd see players relentlessly hassling referees whenever they don't refer incidents upstairs. In hockey the refs can issue green, yellow and red cards. With players sent off for 2 minutes, 5 minutes or permanently. Any back chat at all is an instant green card. Next time is yellow and so on... Can you imagine trying to implement this in football?
 
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The Purley King said:
Thought this was a very interesting read.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_...eferee-error-first-half-premier-league-season

Summary is that we are the joint second worst screwed team thanks to VAR so far this season.
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this is interesting, and its nice to see some detail but it still demonstrates how hard it is to measure these things. Hojlund for example, was 100% fouled by Dias in the derby - the ref said no and var said no. So how is this measured. Personally I think this is the worst season of officiating United have had since......last season, which was the worst in a long time.
 
Pexbo said:
I’ve been thinking about VAR and I’ve decided it needs completely scrapping and reimplementing with a different framework.

  1. Teams get 2 appeals for the match.
    1. Unsuccessful appeals are lost, successful appeals are retained.
    2. If both teams use their appeals in the first half, they each start the second half with 1 appeal.
  2. Managers raise the appeal with the 4th official and the match clock is stopped when the ball is next dead. They can either:
    1. Dispute a decision, e.g. a penalty awarded, a red card etc.
    2. Raise an indecent that was missed or waived on (dispute a non-decision). It has to be raised with the 4th official within a certain time and the match is stopped for review when the ball is next dead. e.g. a missed penalty, potential red card check.
  3. Managers have to be specific in the scope of the incident, the players involved and make a case for why it’s a penalty.
  4. The referee goes to the monitor and is presented with ALL available footage and it’s replayed in real time. Slow motion is only used to determine if contact was made.
  5. The referee then goes to explain their decision to both managers and its broadcast to the stadium so players and crowd can hear along with the TV audience at home.
  6. Offsides are handled outside of this process and not subject to appeal, ideally automated.


For me that gives an element of control back to the managers/teams. It gives them an opportunity to raise incidents which are otherwise inexplicably missed or brushed off.


It gives referees an opportunity to explain their decisions and educate us heathens. It also hands power entirely back to them as the role of VAR is reduced to video operators with no opportunity to overrule the in field referee.


Forcing referees to explain their decisions adds an element of pressure and accountability. It’s one thing to have a ridiculous decision, it’s another entirely when you hear a referee sheepishly try to bullshit their reasoning for it when given the opportunity to rectify it.
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Normally I wouldn't advocate for teams themselves to be involved in refereeing games but in a season we have had blatantly wrong calls such as Bruno sending off and the West Ham penalty...
 
The Purley King said:
Thought this was a very interesting read.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_...eferee-error-first-half-premier-league-season

Summary is that we are the joint second worst screwed team thanks to VAR so far this season.
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It's truly bizarre that they have categories where they deemed penalties to have been awarded that should not have been, penalties not awarded that should have been and incorrectly doled out red cards yet the panel all agree VAR should not have not intervened.

How do they work that one out?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Like I said, I'm sure they have performance reviews with their bosses. That's why we hear about referees being dropped or not chosen for big games. It's a difficult job and they get a lot of scrutiny from everyone. I don't buy the idea that they operate without any accountability. I also don't care about this refereeing issue half as much as some of you seem to. It is what it is. They do tend to get most decisions right (or, at the very least, you can see why they made them) with only one or two really obvious mistakes in any given match. Same as most footballers.
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Here in lies the problem, and the lack of faith of supporters. I think all fans are agreeing on the fact that Madley was absolutely dreadful in the match on Sunday. So he'd have had a review with his bosses and probably sat down for a match or something right??

Wrong, he gets the Liverpool v Brentford match on the weekend...this is why there is a complete lack of faith in what is happening behind the scenes. We see this regularly, so how can supporters think that there is an actual review. On top of that, the comments made by former officials and Webb just exacerbate the situation.
 
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