VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

That volleyball play by west ham; it was a disgrace that VAR allowed that goal.
VAR has become a joke lately and they don’t seem to want to grow a pair and make the right decisions.
 
Feels like we’ve gone through two phases of VAR. 2020/21 we had an implementation problem with excessively long delays and ridiculous attention to detail on offsides.

Now we have an interpretation problem. Those in charge of reviewing incidents don’t know how to interpret certain incidents and either insist on a review when one isn’t needed, or simply ignore incidents that clearly need them. The current handball rules aren’t helping.
 
Just get rid of it. The whole point of VAR was to reduce the amount of controversial decisions but that's not happened for whatever reason.

So now we still have controversial refereeing decisions, only with the added joy of in game stoppages. Great.
 
Cantonagotmehere said:
That was the strangest call I've seen all season. Even the announcers did not get how bad it was..... I usually stay out of this because things tend to work out over the season but VAR not catching that means things are very broken.
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I feel like - with the rule being how you can't handle the ball if it leads directly to you scoring a goal - some people (mainly refs) are seemingly forgetting to actually judge whether there was just a normal feckin' handball or not.

It was the same with the Boro one last year...pundits etc. going on about how it counted because he didn't score the goal.... but not stopping for a second to realise that it was just a normal handball offence

A this rate you could catch the ball and throw it to your team mate to score a header and they'd probably allow it.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
I feel like - with the rule being how you can't handle the ball if it leads directly to you scoring a goal - some people (mainly refs) are seemingly forgetting to actually judge whether there was just a normal feckin' handball or not.

It was the same with the Boro one last year...pundits etc. going on about how it counted because he didn't score the goal.... but not stopping for a second to realise that it was just a normal handball offence

A this rate you could catch the ball and throw it to your team mate to score a header and they'd probably allow it.
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It’s ridiculous. It’s like the refs association have got VAR and gone....well we’re not using it to show we’ve got something wrong. Instead we will make up some nonsense rules to try and make us look cleverer than everybody else and use VAR and tell stories to back that up.

It’s not that difficult. Put the rules back to how they were. Sort out the offside issues and just use the thing when the ref has got it wrong...and yes apply common sense. Nobody is too concerned if the throw goes the wrong way, or even a corner. But handballs, penalties, fouls in the build up to goals....just do that properly.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
I feel like - with the rule being how you can't handle the ball if it leads directly to you scoring a goal - some people (mainly refs) are seemingly forgetting to actually judge whether there was just a normal feckin' handball or not.

It was the same with the Boro one last year...pundits etc. going on about how it counted because he didn't score the goal.... but not stopping for a second to realise that it was just a normal handball offence

A this rate you could catch the ball and throw it to your team mate to score a header and they'd probably allow it.
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:lol: Funny cos it’s true. That’s exactly what’s happening and it’s absolutely mental.
 
Jeppers7 said:
It’s ridiculous. It’s like the refs association have got VAR and gone....well we’re not using it to show we’ve got something wrong. Instead we will make up some nonsense rules to try and make us look cleverer than everybody else and use VAR and tell stories to back that up.

It’s not that difficult. Put the rules back to how they were. Sort out the offside issues and just use the thing when the ref has got it wrong...and yes apply common sense. Nobody is too concerned if the throw goes the wrong way, or even a corner. But handballs, penalties, fouls in the build up to goals....just do that properly.
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To be fair I think they've more or less nailed offsides this year - these slightly thicker lines that can't touch seem to work much better and have got rid of the stupid armpit hair offsides. They're also been done a lot faster then last year.

My worry there is though when the automated stuff comes back in, we'll go back to people being offside by a milimeter (but at least it'll be quick).

But yeah it's the rest of the stuff that's dumb - largely because they seem to be trying to use it without applying any logic or common-sense and trying to make it as hard as possible for themselves.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
I feel like - with the rule being how you can't handle the ball if it leads directly to you scoring a goal - some people (mainly refs) are seemingly forgetting to actually judge whether there was just a normal feckin' handball or not.

It was the same with the Boro one last year...pundits etc. going on about how it counted because he didn't score the goal.... but not stopping for a second to realise that it was just a normal handball offence

A this rate you could catch the ball and throw it to your team mate to score a header and they'd probably allow it.
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Yep, its utterly bizarre. The Antonio one a few weeks ago where he controlled the ball beautifully with his arms, missed the shot and scored on the second time of asking is a prime example. Handballs are routinely given all over the pitch when its just hit someones arm accidentally but they gained an advantage. You can't just decide that because it lead to a goal that a completely different set of rules abides.

The penalty last night was another one that makes no sense. Hits his arm from a few foot away and hes sprinting. He arm isn't trying to block anything and he has no time to move it or react. I think it was in one of our games recently it comes about 15m and hits the guy on the arm but because it was by his side its just ignored. Perhaps the guy with 15m and a second or two to react should be judged more harshly than the guy who had no chance.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
To be fair I think they've more or less nailed offsides this year - these slightly thicker lines that can't touch seem to work much better and have got rid of the stupid armpit hair offsides. They're also been done a lot faster then last year.

My worry there is though when the automated stuff comes back in, we'll go back to people being offside by a milimeter (but at least it'll be quick).

But yeah it's the rest of the stuff that's dumb - largely because they seem to be trying to use it without applying any logic or common-sense and trying to make it as hard as possible for themselves.
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Except now we’re seeing blatantly incorrect offside calls. Flagged and blown up before VAR looks at them. Bruno was a yard onside in a very promising situation against Chelsea but the ref blew for offside. Whatever happened to linesmen keeping their flags down and letting play develop if there’s a tight call?

That’s the thing about VAR. It’s causing relentless changes to the way the game is being refereed. Far more frequent and dramatic than we ever had before. Because the expectations on officiating have changed completely because of this stupid poxy technology.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Except now we’re seeing blatantly incorrect offside calls. Flagged and blown up before VAR looks at them. Bruno was a yard onside in a very promising situation against Chelsea but the ref blew for offside. Whatever happened to linesmen keeping their flags down and letting play develop if there’s a tight call?

That’s the thing about VAR. It’s causing relentless changes to the way the game is being refereed. Far more frequent and dramatic than we ever had before. Because the expectations on officiating have changed completely because of this stupid poxy technology.
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That was the lino's fault to be fair - not VAR - he should be keeping his flag down until the attacks on (which is what normally happens ala Bruno's disallowed goal vs. Spurs), also the ref didn't have to blow up either and could have let play go on - so definitely a fault with the on-pitch officials.

I do definitely think its harder to ref games now in VAR world - but mainly because they've made it hard for themselves with these stupid arbitary laws like "clear and obvious" / "high threshold" / "whatever the feck is a handball these days"
 
Annihilate Now! said:
That was the lino's fault to be fair - not VAR - he should be keeping his flag down until the attacks on (which is what normally happens ala Bruno's disallowed goal vs. Spurs), also the ref didn't have to blow up either and could have let play go on - so definitely a fault with the on-pitch officials.

I do definitely think its harder to ref games now in VAR world - but mainly because they've made it hard for themselves with these stupid arbitary laws like "clear and obvious" / "high threshold" / "whatever the feck is a handball these days"
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Someone said the guidance to the officials has changed. They’re now only supposed to let play develop, without flagging/whistling, for clear goal scoring opportunities.

Might be bullshit, of course. It’s impossible to keep on top of the fecking relentless changes to the way the game is referee’d now that VAR has made the officials job much more complicated (and football less fun).
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Except now we’re seeing blatantly incorrect offside calls. Flagged and blown up before VAR looks at them.
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This is what really pisses people off. When there is no excuse. When its just poor quality work. There is no way the linesman can be 100% sure someone was offside when a replay shows them being a foot or so onside. Theres just no way. If they were sure then they are clearly not up to the job.

I think that calling offsides accurately is very very hard. People underestimate how hard it it. But we now have VAR so that if there is even a shred of doubt, you can play on and call it back. People might get annoyed that a goal is disallowed but it will be the right decision. If you let it play on and it was offside you will make the right decision via VAR. You call it offside too early and you have a good chance of making the wrong, and potentially match changing decision.

People would like VAR if it was just used more sensibly. If the standards of refereeing were not so poor. If there were not dozens of bad, result changing decisions already with less than 1/3rd of the season gone.
 
mctrials23 said:
This is what really pisses people off. When there is no excuse. When its just poor quality work. There is no way the linesman can be 100% sure someone was offside when a replay shows them being a foot or so onside. Theres just no way. If they were sure then they are clearly not up to the job.

I think that calling offsides accurately is very very hard. People underestimate how hard it it. But we now have VAR so that if there is even a shred of doubt, you can play on and call it back. People might get annoyed that a goal is disallowed but it will be the right decision. If you let it play on and it was offside you will make the right decision via VAR. You call it offside too early and you have a good chance of making the wrong, and potentially match changing decision.

People would like VAR if it was just used more sensibly. If the standards of refereeing were not so poor. If there were not dozens of bad, result changing decisions already with less than 1/3rd of the season gone.
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To be clear, an incorrect offside call never used to piss me off. Before VAR. I know how incredibly difficult it is to get the call spot on and always accepted a few bad calls as part of the game. And to be fair to linesmen they did a brilliant job at getting the vast majority of their decisions right.

Different story now VAR has been foisted on us. Anything other than 100% accuracy is fecking maddening. Because that’s the bar that’s been set and if we have to put up with irritating VAR downsides (stop-start celebrations, long pauses in the game) then why should we also put up with incorrect decisions?
 
Just seen the West Ham game, and like everyone else who has seen the 'handball' goal, I totally agree. He actively moves his arms to shovel the ball towards the goal, and how that is not given I don't know.
The penalty is not so clear, I can't make out if the ball comes of the defenders leg before hitting his arm, but his arm is definitely raised, although I agree that it is a natural thing for a defender to do that, I have seen them given before.
 
I also think VAR just removed alot of exitment from the game and the way they use it is totally wrong. They say they would not use it on offside/give adventage to attacker if it was close call and not use it if it was not obviously mistake, but every weekend they do both this things, specially that only use it on obviously mistakes are tiering on me, if ref needs 1 minut to decide if a 50/50 is wrong then its not obvious at all (or that they go even futher back for another mistake that was not spottet is ridicules missuse).

And still they get their decisions wrong after watching it on VAR, totally useless
 
I'm going to be a dissenting voice and say the goal should have stood and it wasn't handball. Hear me out.

It shouldn't be the case that if a ball is kicked at you in a certain place a handball is inevitable and you can't do anything about it. The West Ham player has his hands crossed in front of his crotch, his arms are literally as much out of the way as is possible and the ball comes over jumping players. He doesn't then push the ball with his hands, he jumps and so the ball bounces up off them. In my opinion that means the handlball is not deliberate. At this point you then get into the "if the handball leads directly to a goal" (which to me is weird anyway, if a handball is an offence, its an offence regardless of where/when on the pitch). This is where you'll get unsatisfactory results because the laws would state the ball comes out and goes back in, so its a different phase.

I can see why it looks so bad, but honestly if I look at it I can fully understand why the goal stood.
 
slyadams said:
I'm going to be a dissenting voice and say the goal should have stood and it wasn't handball. Hear me out.

It shouldn't be the case that if a ball is kicked at you in a certain place a handball is inevitable and you can't do anything about it. The West Ham player has his hands crossed in front of his crotch, his arms are literally as much out of the way as is possible and the ball comes over jumping players. He doesn't then push the ball with his hands, he jumps and so the ball bounces up off them. In my opinion that means the handlball is not deliberate. At this point you then get into the "if the handball leads directly to a goal" (which to me is weird anyway, if a handball is an offence, its an offence regardless of where/when on the pitch). This is where you'll get unsatisfactory results because the laws would state the ball comes out and goes back in, so its a different phase.

I can see why it looks so bad, but honestly if I look at it I can fully understand why the goal stood.
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It's not a direct free kick from 20 yards out, it's a looping corner kicked more softly for accuracy. Absolutely no point for his arms / hands to be in that position, his crotch is in no danger. Should have been an easy penalty call, unfortunately it was cocked up.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
I feel like - with the rule being how you can't handle the ball if it leads directly to you scoring a goal - some people (mainly refs) are seemingly forgetting to actually judge whether there was just a normal feckin' handball or not.

It was the same with the Boro one last year...pundits etc. going on about how it counted because he didn't score the goal.... but not stopping for a second to realise that it was just a normal handball offence

A this rate you could catch the ball and throw it to your team mate to score a header and they'd probably allow it.
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Good point. Common sense out the window.
 
It’s still absurd how there is no transparency in VAR.

Last time in the World Cup it was quite inconsistent and at the Euros we had almost no replays of decisive offside situations and VAR calls. Like the system should seem more fair to the viewer with less replays - its the opposite!

You just know it could end up like this again with little transparency in a World Cup hosted by one of the least transparent countries in Qatar.
 
Linesmen should be obsolete at this point, just like the goal-line ref. A singular on pitch ref with less ego, less responsibility, should be fit enough to cover the entire pitch for a game and concentrate on the hardest calls like 50-50 duels and keeping a consistent line every game. That should be their primary focus. VAR should be automated as much as possible. Actual bodies in the VAR room should review situations quickly, based on a blue print. Only way to make the game more fair and more consistent.

It seems every ref has their own interpretation, based on different circumstances and largely disagree on how the game should be played. I'd say that shouldn't be up to them, they should follow a set of principles. You have the rulebook, then you need to have the book on how to actually apply them. At the moment we don't and refs are asked to do different things each week. Impossible job. It should be simpler for all parties, with the right system in place, but VAR at the moment is like trying to build utopia on top of a volcano.
 
MikeKing said:
Linesmen should be obsolete at this point, just like the goal-line ref. A singular on pitch ref with less ego, less responsibility, should be fit enough to cover the entire pitch for a game and concentrate on the hardest calls like 50-50 duels and keeping a consistent line every game. That should be their primary focus. VAR should be automated as much as possible. Actual bodies in the VAR room should review situations quickly, based on a blue print. Only way to make the game more fair and more consistent.

It seems every ref has their own interpretation, based on different circumstances and largely disagree on how the game should be played. I'd say that shouldn't be up to them, they should follow a set of principles. You have the rulebook, then you need to have the book on how to actually apply them. At the moment we don't and refs are asked to do different things each week. Impossible job. It should be simpler for all parties, with the right system in place, but VAR at the moment is like trying to build utopia on top of a volcano.
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There are actual bodies in the VAR room making horrendous decisions every week.
 
They’re taking the piss at this point.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
I can't recall it even being any worse then how any team normally reacts to when they give away a pen?
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They don't want people to look deeper at the refs or the VAR system, United draw the most eyes. When the players react, people take notice. People discuss. They want United's role to be clowns in the media, our players to not be competing. Simply put they specifically don't want to have a club cause any disturbance so this is a power move to show authority. I mean if we get fecked every other week, but fuzz isn't allowed to build up cause the main story is how terrible United is and how deserving we are of being screwed, then less eyes on VAR and less pressure on the FA to do their jobs. I mean, it really does feel like they are trying to beat us down because I'm sure we've been charged a lot more than other teams in the last 5 years or so. Would like to see a statistic on that, for reference. Would help in telling if it's truth or just a feeling.
 


This wasn't corrected by VAR in Germany. Ref gave handball from Lindströn
 
That's why VAR just doesn't work for anything other than offside. Football calls are subjective, VAR or no VAR. Better to just accept that and get on with it the game.
 
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