Great suggestions.
VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion
- Thread starter Samid
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Says it all, doesn't it? So there's definitely a case for having a different set of VAR officials that don't train with the regular officials to stop these things from happening.
I mean, it's not hard to believe that Pawson didn't want to send Oliver to the monitor to give a pen to us after seeing the criticism that Hooper and colleagues got for missing a call against United five days earlier.
I don’t understand why they see sending their pal to look at the screen as some sort of terrible ordeal for them. Surely they would all want the chance to have a second look at any potential mistakes they make? I mean, the alternative is their name/reputation being permanently associated with a refereeing error. Nobody cares about errors if the correct decision gets made in the end.
It's very weird. I mean they all lost out on a chunk of money when the VAR wouldn't send Hooper to the monitor for Onana's murder attempt and they all had to sit out the next week of fixtures, so you'd think there would be some form of incentive to make the right decision.
The mindset is baffling. Imagine if nurses refused to check each other’s IV drug administration in case they undermined their colleagues?
“I knew Sharon was having a tough week. The last thing she needed was me pointing out she was about to inject that neonate with 10x the prescribed dose”
True. However, there is more to it than that. As while they do this, as Dean describes, they also know which clubs they can penalise and get away with it in the media and which clubs they cannot get away with it in the media.
Hence, we end up with teams like the Dippers getting away with all sorts and other teams getting fecked.
So many fans have said this again and again. Having pals in VAR room is pointless. And vague stuff like " clear and obvious" gives opportunity for refs to just thump each other on the backs.
Expect FA and PL to do feck all about it.
Why are they so afraid to reverse a call? American sports use instant reply to reverse calls without official's feelings getting twisted.
Because it's a chum's club and they don't want to embarrass each other, apparently. Corruption, nothing more, nothing less.
Not defending it at all, but I there was a volatile atmosphere on the touchline during that game. Tuchel and Conte both lost control. So I'm guessing he wanted to spare his mate from going over to the screen and getting a earful from both benches.
The people who are in charge of referees do care.
In the French league, referee grading was negatively impacted by whether they had to use VAR or not, as it was the view of the refereeing instances that it basically meant the onfield referee made a clear mistake.
They decided to relax the rule this year to encourage refs to use VAR but onfield refs can still be penalised if the referee board deems the use of VAR during a game as abusive or something like that.
I don’t know if it’s the same in the PL but I wouldn’t be surprised if it were.
I personnally think it’s a stupid way to judge refs, because as you said players and fans ultimately want the refereeing to be as fair as possible. we won’t care too much that the refs made a mistake if they correct it after checking with VAR
Michael Olvier would be shitting bricks if that was brought in.
All these suggestions seem sensible, fair and would likely improve the standard of officiating while giving fans a better understanding of how/why decisions are made. One I'd like to add is the Ref should be wearing a camera so we can see what they can see, that way wankers like Oliver can't say they thought Romero's hand was in a natural position for the blatant handball last week.
And that's why all or none of these would ever be implemented. PGMOL is a little closed club all looking out for each other, they've no interest in transparency or improving their standards.
Because most of them are jumped up little pricks with massive egos. Having to go to the monitor means the VAR ref thinks you've made a mistake, and you have to jog over to the monitor in front of thousands knowing everyone thinks you've made a mistake. It's why England was the only country to not use the monitor once in an entire season after VAR was introduced. And why Ref's like Mike Dean only very rarely ever changed their original decision after looking at the monitor.
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This is the key for me. I hate the aloofness of referees, telling us how hard their Jon is but doing nothing to explain and educate.
Regarding a camera on referees, it’s a nice idea in principle but you can’t track head and eye movement so would never know for sure.
Good point and this is another thing American sports do quite well. Ejecting managers is a necessary aspect of being able to more efficiently referee games. Both of them needed to be tossed in that one.
replace the referee’s eyes with cameras.
For some reason the foul on Eriksen v Arsenal is brought up as a VAR mistake despite getting down to the correct decision at the end. It’s all a mind feck. If they just came out and said we don’t like VAR and setting these stupidly high bars is our way to minimise it then fair enough. It doesn’t look to me as if they have any interest in following the actual rules of football
It makes absolutely no sense at all. He can only mean that in the moment of going up to the screen he'd be getting grief off everyone in the stadium which is weird.
Obviously, if he goes to the monitor and sees the hair pull he has no choice so why would he expect to get more grief for a correct decision. These should be emotionless decisions, the refs just don't seem to be thinking straight at all.
Saw someone on twitter point to the below from this article.
I wonder if they feel they're more likely to be punished for those sort of errors if the VAR actually highlights them by intervening. Which would probably help create a dynamic where the VAR knows he could be getting his friend in trouble.
I would have thought it makes more sense to tell them "You won't be punished for a mistake if you ultimately arrive at the right decision. Mistakes happen, that's why you have VAR, but as long as you and your colleague use the process properly to correct the mistake that's fine." That way you encourage the idea that they're there to help each other.
I think Webb said the quiet part out loud years ago. Referees see themselves as the orchestrator of the spectacle and they will manage the game as they believe it should be managed.
If it’s a game with two big rivals they will let it get a bit spicy and be slow to bring out a yellow because they know commentators will heap praise on them for letting “the game flow”.
If it’s a minnow vs a giant they will give every 50/50 to the minnow to try to create a David and Goliath spectacle.
If a defensive midfielder that puts in lots of tactical fouls all games cynically stops a counter attack in the 3rd minute - don’t give yourself a big decision to make later on, keep your yellow in your pocket and warn him for now.
In the same vein, if it’s United and the media has spent an entire week saying that we were lucky and got a bad decision in our favour then the referee the next week is going to ensure that doesn’t happen again safe in the knowledge the media won’t make a big deal out of it.
The whole thing is rotten, and this sort of example just further highlights that they have no idea why they're even using VAR.
We still get no consistency of decisions through the current "clear and obvious error" threshold (and especially not this season with the bar being raised). So much of it is still "well, I suppose that could be a handball/red card/penalty" that they may as well not even have VAR.
The fact that referees are so unaccountable for the decisions they make that they can effectively choose to stick with an incorrect call, because that way it doesn't get flagged as a mistake, is utterly farcical.
What is VAR for if it's not being used to ensure correct and consistent decisions are being made?
They're also failed footballers. They love the sport but were never good enough to play it and they love the power they have over the players and the game. Bit like that PE teacher we all had at school.
Absolutely spot on!
We need more of this. They need to explain and educate how their Jon is getting hard while officiating the match. Maybe that’s the reason they aren’t able to think properly as all the blood is rushing somewhere else.
But in this case it wasn’t even a mistake so to speak. It wasn’t like he made a decision but made the wrong one. He just didn’t see the hair pull. That’s not a mistake, unless he was looking right at it and decided it wasn’t worth a foul. I can’t remember it now, but if his view was obscured, then it’s not exactly a real mistake mistake.
All he had to do was ask him was ‘did you see the hair pull’?. If no, send him to the monitor. If yes, then let him fall on his own sword. Which leads me to another thing - we really need to start hearing what the VAR officials and the onfield ref are saying to each other, like that example in the France with the mic’d up ref.
What's the statute regarding the use of referees in the PL? Are they required to be English referees? Is it not possible to get the best referees from all over the world, considering the fact that the players and coaches are already of multiple nationalities?
I wouldn't mind an old boys' club if they weren't all so incompetent.
I wouldn't mind an old boys' club if they weren't all so incompetent.
Possibly the only decent thing Cucurella has done for Chelsea and it gets ignored by VAR.
Dean's comments proves what I've always thought about the VAR issues in the PL. Issues are as a result the officials use of it not VAR itself. Maybe I'm not aware of it as much but doesn't seem be as may problems with it in Italy, Germany etc...
that plan falls down when you remember that the english are actually the best at everything.
The problem is the inherent one n the entire game: a fixation on preserving some sort of fixed order. Players on some teams go out each match knowing they could be hurt, because the other team will be allowed to perform actions that cause injury without repercussions, while other teams know that if an opponent even looks sideways at their knee it could be a yellow or red.
They aren’t saying they miss things. They are saying they intentionally ignore things purely based on bias, making their friends look bad, what team they root for.
Chelsea, which, horrible season or not, is a large global brand now, was forced to have their shirt sponsor lower the value of their arrangement because the deal was above what the same trolls decided was fair market value for a “non European competing team”?? Would that have happened to United or Arsenal?
United have a sponsor that can’t actually pay their bills, and you were out of the CL… were you forced to artificially lower your sponsor revenue?
It’s all trash. But the Ref and VAR trash get people hurt.
They aren’t saying they miss things. They are saying they intentionally ignore things purely based on bias, making their friends look bad, what team they root for.
Chelsea, which, horrible season or not, is a large global brand now, was forced to have their shirt sponsor lower the value of their arrangement because the deal was above what the same trolls decided was fair market value for a “non European competing team”?? Would that have happened to United or Arsenal?
United have a sponsor that can’t actually pay their bills, and you were out of the CL… were you forced to artificially lower your sponsor revenue?
It’s all trash. But the Ref and VAR trash get people hurt.
It is impressive how you manage to bring up some sort of conspiracy against Chelsea into almost every post of yours that I see.
Great post. Mods,.promote this guy
And to completely miss the point doing so.
Was almost irrelevant
I lost faith in VAR when the Rhodri handball at Everton wasn't given. Nothing could have been clearer but it was a City player so it's different. They also got a penalty to win the game against Wolves at the Emptyhad when the ball clearly struck the defenders shoulder. Then VAR appoint blind Howard Webb, remember him? The bloke that was six feet away watching Ballotelli tap dancing on Scott Parkers head and didn't even book him. Another close game City sneaked home in. The same Howard Webb that thought Nigel DeJong sticking his foot into Alonso's chest wasn't a red card, that's Nigel DeJong that played for Man City at the time. Spot the theme?
I lost faith in refereeing when Newcastle fan Michael Oliver was allowed to referee our match when United and Newcastle were both competing for Top 4 despite the fact he said in an article a year before that he would never be allowed or even want to referee a match which has an effect on Newcastle’s season - he was talking in the context of refereeing a relegation rival then.
Oh also the fact Newcastle fan Michael Oliver is doing free lance refereeing in the Saudi League making him literally on the payroll of Newcastle owners.
Oh also the fact Newcastle fan Michael Oliver is doing free lance refereeing in the Saudi League making him literally on the payroll of Newcastle owners.
I'm amazed he didn't just claim to support Blyth Spartans or a team of that ilk. Seems to be the usual thing for referees to almost inexplicably support a random non-league side.
Yep the closest we get is Dermot Gallagher on Sky Sports once a week, agreeing with the refs decisions 99% of the time.
Good point actually, I'm sure I have seen eye tracking software is being developed but probably not something that could be adapted. Still though at least getting video from the refs point of view would give us an idea of what he could and couldn't see.
Yep a fair few of them give off those vibes.