VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

Pexbo said:
Absolute madness that they have withdrawn the Mac Alister challenge. He’s gone in high, over the ball. Dermot Gallagher says it only looks worse because the defender raised his foot too but again he’s talking out his arse. It would have been a hell of a lot worse if he hadn’t raised his foot, Max Alister would have gone through his knee had he not.

They’re setting a hell of a precedent ruling that the referee and VAR have both got it wrong on that one, are they going ti be suspended next week?
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No precedent has been set. Liverpool are referred and managed to a different rule set.
 
The irony of us being labelled as a team who have the referees in their pockets whilst actually getting absolutely nothing ever is starting to grate now.

We got away with one against Wolves and it was so ridiculously predictable that we'd get nothing for weeks after the media furore.

It's time ETH started to fight fire with fire and call it out. Attempting to take the high road isn't working. Referees respond to pressure, so pressure needs to be piled on them.
 
Samid said:
What is the difference between the Matip and Dias handballs? Why is one given and the other one not even worthy of a replay? Why are refs so inconsistent?
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I know let's hope we don't turn into la Liga they get a little touch and fall like fairys
 
So will the officials for the Liverpool game on Saturday be suspended for the new round? Surely that’s an error on a comparable scale to the one in our opening game.
 
Tierney should be spitting feathers. He’ll never be given a Liverpool game again.
Meanwhile the scrote with tramlines will shaft United in at least 6 more games this season alone
 
Lentwood said:
The irony of us being labelled as a team who have the referees in their pockets whilst actually getting absolutely nothing ever is starting to grate now.

We got away with one against Wolves and it was so ridiculously predictable that we'd get nothing for weeks after the media furore.

It's time ETH started to fight fire with fire and call it out. Attempting to take the high road isn't working. Referees respond to pressure, so pressure needs to be piled on them.
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The thing is, we didn't really get away with anything against Wolves. Keepers are so rarely punished for that kind of thing, their own keeper punched someone in the head last season and nothing was given.
 
sebsheep said:
The thing is, we didn't really get away with anything against Wolves. Keepers are so rarely punished for that kind of thing, their own keeper punched someone in the head last season and nothing was given.
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Well considering the PGMOL and Howard Webb said it definitely should have been a penalty, and made a big song and dance about it, and have since given a pen for a similar (ish) incident this weekend with Pickford... Yeah we got away with it, which is the reason we now probably have to suffer with decisions until god knows when.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Well considering the PGMOL and Howard Webb said it definitely should have been a penalty, and made a big song and dance about it, and have since given a pen for a similar (ish) incident this weekend with Pickford... Yeah we got away with it, which is the reason we now probably have to suffer with decisions until god knows when.
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Funnily enough the Pickford one was closer to the Sa incident last season than the Onana one.
They also said it should've been a red card, which makes zero sense so I don't think we should care too much about what they say.

You could probably count on one hand how many times that kind of incident has been given as a penalty from the last few hundred times they've occurred, that's what I mean by us not really getting away with it.
 
When Klopp opens his big mouth they all obey diligently.
 
They’ve opened the flood gates now, you’d be daft not to appeal if going into a challenge at pace with a high foot with studs showing which catches the opponent is deemed a fair challenge despite the on field referee and VAR review both deciding it’s a red card.

I can’t get my head around it.
 
Oranges038 said:
Exactly.

Utd should have appealed both. But, were afraid they'd be told to feck off and he'd get an extra game on top of that as well.
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Because we might?
The FA haven’t set any sort of precedent here, this is just an outlier. When we’re threatened with an extra game added on for Casemiro being sent off for holding a player by the throat and it ends up being by the collar then it’s pointless. I still remember the many examples of other players doing the exact same thing for a few weeks later and not a peep from any official.
They set their boundaries from high profile cases,
 
cyberman said:
Because we might?
The FA haven’t set any sort of precedent here, this is just an outlier. When we’re threatened with an extra game added on for Casemiro being sent off for holding a player by the throat and it ends up being by the collar then it’s pointless. I still remember the many examples of other players doing the exact same thing for a few weeks later and not a peep from any official.
They set their boundaries from high profile cases,
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But in both situations he was only sent off because the VAR officials deliberately focused on certain portions of images that made it look much worse than it actually was. In one, I'm fairly sure the same ref failed to award a red for a worse incident only the day before.

Every harsh red should be appealed now and the same results should follow. But, we know that won't happen. Same as the referees from the Wolves game being given the weekend off, it won't happen again anytime soon.

As the only thing consistent about VAR and referees is their inability to apply the same rules consistently across the league. VAR was supposed to clear all this stuff up, but it just takes more people longer to make questionable decisions.
 
Oranges038 said:
But in both situations he was only sent off because the VAR officials deliberately focused on certain portions of images that made it look much worse than it actually was. In one, I'm fairly sure the same ref failed to award a red for a worse incident only the day before.

Every harsh red should be appealed now and the same results should follow. But, we know that won't happen. Same as the referees from the Wolves game being given the weekend off, it won't happen again anytime soon.

As the only thing consistent about VAR and referees is their inability to apply the same rules consistently across the league. VAR was supposed to clear all this stuff up, but it just takes more people longer to make questionable decisions.
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We had a freekick against us v Villa where the ball was placed 10 yards from the foul and the wall was 17 yards or something stupid away from the ball. When Eriksen pointed this out he got booked.
United games are the chance for refs to show how strong they are. Same for appeals etc.
As an example, can you remember the last on field penalty we got that didn’t go to VAR?
We’re treated differently , it’s glaringly obvious we would be the first in line for a frivolous appeal if it ever came to that.
I’d be shocked if we don’t go into games with ref and VAR bias already worked into our game plan. That’s why I’m not shocked our captain got booked for approaching the ref when it’s in law that he’s allowed to. Bruno should not go nowhere near the ref again and Ten Hag should point out why.
 
cyberman said:
We had a freekick against us v Villa where the ball was placed 10 yards from the foul and the wall was 17 yards or something stupid away from the ball. When Eriksen pointed this out he got booked.
United games are the chance for refs to show how strong they are. Same for appeals etc.
As an example, can you remember the last on field penalty we got that didn’t go to VAR?
We’re treated differently , it’s glaringly obvious we would be the first in line for a frivolous appeal if it ever came to that.
I’d be shocked if we don’t go into games with ref and VAR bias already worked into our game plan. That’s why I’m not shocked our captain got booked for approaching the ref when it’s in law that he’s allowed to. Bruno should not go nowhere near the ref again and Ten Hag should point out why.
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He should do it every week and if he gets booked, they should say it publicly that he is allowed to speak to the ref. He did it and got booked, Spurs players did it too and got nothing.

3 Arsenal players were waving imaginary cards the other day after Eze went down in the box. Not a word, but they also had Tomiyasu sent off for two harsh yellows. When Ayew got away with worse only moments before when already on a yellow.

It's the same for every club, they all have complaints. Every manager in the league should be jumping up and down about the standards and inconsistency of officiating. Maybe then something might change.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Well considering the PGMOL and Howard Webb said it definitely should have been a penalty, and made a big song and dance about it, and have since given a pen for a similar (ish) incident this weekend with Pickford... Yeah we got away with it, which is the reason we now probably have to suffer with decisions until god knows when.
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Wasn't it last season that a goalie punched Elanga in the head causing Elanga to drop to the ground like a sack of potatoes? No mention of a penalty by the media or refs then, and I don't even think it was a VAR-check about the incident. Now, I still think that Wolves deserved a penalty - it was reckless from Onana, but it's the lack of consistency that is the big issue here.

I haven't seen the Macallister challenge, but I still feel that there should have been a red against Porro, was it, on the challenge on Bruno. How VAR did not review it I will never know. Then there is the handball incident which is a daylight robbery. It is also debatable, but most likely, a penalty for Pellistri as well, and arguably one for Tottenham. Two huge mistakes and two debetable in one match.
 
Rossa said:
Wasn't it last season that a goalie punched Elanga in the head causing Elanga to drop to the ground like a sack of potatoes? No mention of a penalty by the media or refs then, and I don't even think it was a VAR-check about the incident. Now, I still think that Wolves deserved a penalty - it was reckless from Onana, but it's the lack of consistency that is the big issue here.

I haven't seen the Macallister challenge, but I still feel that there should have been a red against Porro, was it, on the challenge on Bruno. How VAR did not review it I will never know. Then there is the handball incident which is a daylight robbery. It is also debatable, but most likely, a penalty for Pellistri as well, and arguably one for Tottenham. Two huge mistakes and two debetable in one match.
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Completely forgot the Elanga one, was that against Spurs?! I can't remember.
 
Rossa said:
Might have been. It was a bloody assault and straight red - no mention.
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I think it was against Villa. Idk i might be remembering it wrong. But martinez just star-fished himself into elanga. While he got the ball he wiped out elanga too.
 
It angers me how Liverpool can get a red card revoked after complaining to the refs after a game. Where does this end? Are they going to start reward Liverpool goals in hindsight too? I mean, it's not as if giving the red there is a huge mistake even, it's more than justified and within the rule book to do so but maybe in the context of some games you could get away with a yellow. To completely revoke the card for something like that, truly angers me. It's very unfair and I don't understand it.
 
Now does Mac Allister receive a yellow card for that foul now that the red card has been rescinded? It defo was a cautionable offence, just not worth a red imo.
 
MikeKing said:
It angers me how Liverpool can get a red card revoked after complaining to the refs after a game. Where does this end? Are they going to start reward Liverpool goals in hindsight too? I mean, it's not as if giving the red there is a huge mistake even, it's more than justified and within the rule book to do so but maybe in the context of some games you could get away with a yellow. To completely revoke the card for something like that, truly angers me. It's very unfair and I don't understand it.
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I agree. At most, it’s a harsh red - but I can’t see how it’s a mistake and for the red card To be rescinded.

I used to just feel all refs were bad to everyone - with some refs particularly hating us (Oliver, Atkinson) - but the recent weeks have been ridiculous. The Onana incident we see week in week out, in different circumstances- and even in the same game with Antony - yet that is never mentioned and Onana is all over the press. The blatant handball is not even mentioned and ignored in most highlights I’ve seen. The media will always be against United - as it gets views and clicks - but it really feels it’s been effecting the refs decisions now
 
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It’s crazy to me that in a VAR world you can have red cards rescinded on appeal. Refs make split second decisions but the VAR had all the time & angles to change that and decided to stick with it. To change it now is just ridiculous
 
MikeKing said:
It angers me how Liverpool can get a red card revoked after complaining to the refs after a game. Where does this end? Are they going to start reward Liverpool goals in hindsight too? I mean, it's not as if giving the red there is a huge mistake even, it's more than justified and within the rule book to do so but maybe in the context of some games you could get away with a yellow. To completely revoke the card for something like that, truly angers me. It's very unfair and I don't understand it.
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It’s a crazy decison, and we should be told why the officials responsible also were not suspended from duties in the next round of fixtures.
 
Basically the media hate United and love Liverpool.

Any decision against Liverpool and the media are up in arms and make a lot of noise, its noise like this that gets you decisions going your way.

United dont appeal because you dont get the same reaction from the media and therefore decisions would not get changed.

Klopp is pretty clever in what he does tbh, he knows how to play the media.
 
Golden Nugget said:
I agree. At most, it’s a harsh red - but I can’t see how it’s a mistake and for the red card To be rescinded.

I used to just feel all refs were bad to everyone - with some refs particularly hating us (Oliver, Atkinson) - but the recent weeks have been ridiculous. The Onana incident we see week in week out, in different circumstances- and even in the same game with Antony - yet that is never mentioned and Onana is all over the press. The blatant handball is not even mentioned and ignored in most highlights I’ve seen. The media will always be against United - as it gets views and clicks - but it really feels it’s been effecting the refers decisions now
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Yeah. That doesn't sit well with me. Just as a spectator and fan of sports. I'm actually speechless. It takes away the integrity of the game when the value and importance is skewed so that you can really play the game in other arenas than on the pitch. Transfer business is politics, and thus gets dirty but what happens on the pitch should be sacred in comparison. It's the premiss of a game of sports, that anyone can win on the day. It shouldn't be possible for the more popular team to change the outcome of a game after it's been played, by filing a complaint. Obviously if something clearly wrong happened, fair enough but to change something just because in the subjective eyes of a Liverpool fan it's perceived as unfair and soft. It's like the referee association don't want the bad press from maybe making a small mistake so much they go ahead and make a huge one, to the detriment of the whole sport, imo. It's really ridiculous.
 
Golden Nugget said:
but it really feels it’s been effecting the refers decisions now
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Don't think it is a recent phenomenon. After the SAF era, our managers have no ba**s to take on the media or the refs. Jose did a bit, but everyone pretty much hate him, so hardly mattered
 
RedDevil@84 said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...ony-taylor-video-assistant-referee-tottenham/

Oh nice!!!
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There should be an absolute shot show with this.

This is what Dean said back then, basically lying through his teeth


In the few seconds I had to study Romero pulling Cucurella's hair, I didn't deem it a violent act. I've since studied the footage, spoken to other referees and, upon reflection, I should have asked Taylor to visit his pitch-side monitor to take a look for himself.

"The referee on field always has the final say. It goes to show that no matter how experienced you are, and I've spent more than two decades as a Premier Leagueofficial, you are always learning.
 
cyberman said:
There should be an absolute shot show with this.

This is what Dean said back then, basically lying through his teeth


In the few seconds I had to study Romero pulling Cucurella's hair, I didn't deem it a violent act. I've since studied the footage, spoken to other referees and, upon reflection, I should have asked Taylor to visit his pitch-side monitor to take a look for himself.

"The referee on field always has the final say. It goes to show that no matter how experienced you are, and I've spent more than two decades as a Premier Leagueofficial, you are always learning.
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FA and PL will ignore this as usual, unless the media starts moaning about it. Dean obviously feels ok to talk now as he is no longer in PGMOL.
Clattenburg did leave UK and then say he purposefully took decisions in that Spurs-Chelsea violent game because he had an image in his mind how the game should go on and he allowed Spurs players to have a go at Chelsea players because of that.
 
I mean, he’s saying here he knew as he’s making that decision, in the moment, not to do his job that he would face the consequences. But went through with it anyway.

Mike Dean: “But I knew full well then I would be stood down the week after. I asked to take a bit of time off because it wasn’t for me.”
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calodo2003 said:
Now does Mac Allister receive a yellow card for that foul now that the red card has been rescinded? It defo was a cautionable offence, just not worth a red imo.
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Good point. Anyone know what happens in these cases?
 
VAR, or at least the way it is currently being utilised, is blatantly not fit for purpose.

The "clear and obvious" line remains far too subjective to achieve any sort of consistency, which is surely the point of VAR in the first place?

If they can't determine what a handball is, what a red card is, etc., with any consistency while using VAR, then they need to just bin it, and at least then we can chalk things up to human error again.
 
WeePat said:
I mean, he’s saying here he knew as he’s making that decision, in the moment, not to do his job that he would face the consequences. But went through with it anyway.
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It's basically an admission of something which we have all suspected. They are (at least sometimes) protecting their mates rather than using VAR as it's intended. In other words they are not applying the rules evenly with the aim of getting to the correct decision 100% of the time. If Dean can do this, and even more so feel comfortable to admit it, then what is going on unmentioned? Hard to believe this can have been an isolated incident. It should be a scandal, it really should. It probably won't be, because respect or something, even though this undermines respect far more than whiney players and managers ever will.

I've said it before, but for the amount of money in the EPL it's an absolute embarrassment the quality of officiating it receives.
 
WeePat said:
We all knew it. This the second Chelsea v Spurs game a match official has admitted to have purposely ignored rules and protocol for non football reasons and Chelsea were on the wrong end of both.

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The best thing that could happen to the premier league is the PGMOL being abolished and replace with a completely independent body.
  • On field match officials are an entirely separate body to VAR officials and there is no professional mixing of the two.
  • All referee and VAR communications are published at the end of the match.
  • All VAR incidents are explained in real time by VAR officials, the public see the footage they are reviewing and listen to their discussions and reasoning - a report is produced of all decisions made and the reasoning behind them and published after the game.
  • The referee has to produce a report after the game explaining all their big decisions. If they miss any decisions, a club has the right to ask why they decided to omit it and for an explanation of the incident.
  • Referee performance is recorded with an Independent panel reviewing each match, grading the referee and recording the number of mistakes they make tracking who it benefits and who it costs.
  • If a referee is deemed to be a statistical outlier for a certain team, either benefiting them or costing them outside a certain threshold then they are removed from future matches for that team.
  • All 20 teams have a representative on the independent body who have the ability to review all processes and raise concerns.




 
Aside from anything else, I don't understand how he thinks intervening will be worse for his friend than leaving him to make a feck up he will inevitably be pilloried for. It's not like the abusive fans are waiting for Mike Dean to let them know when a mistake has been made.
 
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