VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion
- Thread starter Samid
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Refs being pressured into ruling against us and the constant hysteria when we do get a decision is the little sliver of light I’ll see when Qatar takes us over.
Nobody fecking likes us to the point we are now at a disadvantage on the pitch. Being Qatar owned won’t change our standing one iota outside of our fanbase.
I fecking hate it
Nobody fecking likes us to the point we are now at a disadvantage on the pitch. Being Qatar owned won’t change our standing one iota outside of our fanbase.
I fecking hate it
We had 3 penalties all season and two were charity penalty’ (given at a point in game where the result is a formality and the ref can make an easier decision)
Removing the Chelsea and City penalties, we got 1 meaningful penalty in the league all season… and I don’t think that was given on field either.
Klopp really did a number on his when he talked about penalties, we don’t even get stone wall ones
Removing the Chelsea and City penalties, we got 1 meaningful penalty in the league all season… and I don’t think that was given on field either.
Klopp really did a number on his when he talked about penalties, we don’t even get stone wall ones
When Nunes was sent off for wolves v Brighton yesterday Cuna ran in and grabbed Dunk around the neck which Casimiro was sent off for - missed by VAR i suppose?
its at 2:52 on Sky highlights here: (or MOTD BBC iplayer)
Sky Highlights
its at 2:52 on Sky highlights here: (or MOTD BBC iplayer)
Sky Highlights
Blasting the ball in to someone's hand from a meter away is not a pen. It not deliberate handball. If there's movement hand towards ball or similar deliberate movement you can argue it. Not in that case. Bruno needs to learn the law. A big part of the problem is its been got wrong for years now. With the deliberate part forgotten. Now they've corrected it.
The Liverpool game had a lot of problems yesterday. The Liverpool penalty and red card should both be overturned and Bournemouth had a good shout (certainly better than the Liverpool one given for a dive..) with this (was quite hard to find, can't see it in the official highlights or any better quality view):
Webb needs to get things together fast...
Any apology from Moss yet?
It wasn’t blasted, there was enough distance between the shot and the defender and he had his arms up and out away from his body.
There’s not one aspect of the handball rule that it fails.
I don’t know if you realise you’re doing it but you and a few other Chelsea fans are literally on here arguing against every talking point against United fans when the decisions blatantly doesn’t go our way.
Feck me we cant always be wrong
Any media coverage of our disallowed penalty yet?
Intent hasn't actually been part of the law for a while now has it?
Even if you're correct, they only made that decision this weekend because Brighton had a penalty given against them for hand ball last weekend that definitely wasn't deliberate.
Sky kept it completely out of their YouTube highlights.
Ffs.
Seriously, I could understand if there was a poor decision and then a bit of debate about it but an absolutely fecking terrible decision followed by media embargo really fecking stinks.
This feels rather ironic. If you check the rule, you will see that deliberate is one small part of the rule, while a more central one is:
touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised
Now, the reasoning for not awarding us a penalty was down to proximity, but proximity isn’t key, which was clarified when the rules were changed for the 21/22 season. It’s the positioning of the arm and if the defender has made his body unnaturally bigger.
An arm extended away from the body makes that body bigger, in an unnatural position," explains Mike Riley, Managing Director of Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL), the referees' body.
"If the ball strikes that arm, particularly if it is blocking a shot on goal, there is a greater likelihood we will penalise that."
For me, it is rather mental that Romero is allowed to go in with his arm stretched that far out, which for me is far from an natural position. I also fail to see how it’s correct to use proximity in situations like these, where the defender is lunging in to block a shot. Proximity is more for situations where defenders are standing still, not actively moving their arms, and getting the ball hammered at them from close distance.[/i]
That was expected. It would not fit their agenda.
In all the years I've seen this guy wheeled in to pontificate on the contentious decisions of the day, I don't think I've ever seen him suggest that United have been on the wrong end of one.
Always thought introducing VAR was a terrible idea. Some argued "If it doesn't work we can always roll back" that I never believed.
I think the prediction that it wouldn't solve more disputes but just displace them elsewhere has proved accurate.
I think the prediction that it wouldn't solve more disputes but just displace them elsewhere has proved accurate.
Dodgy as feck pen that. Partey standing offside and interfering with play.
Jon Moss apology before the night is out for that.
Can’t view the video, what was the reasoning given for the no call being correct?
Referees have be been dogshit this season. So many bad refs and bad decisions.
How did they not give this Palace one
That's never a red for Tomiyasu, softest second yellow you'll see
Because of the proximity apparently. Ignoring the fact it wasn’t a snap shot that caught him off guard, he actively lunged into the path of the ball to block it and made himself big in the process.
This is getting so bad.
Knew it was gonna be proximity. Thanks.
How does it keep getting worse? 
If they keep going this way, people will turn their eyes on other leagues.How does it keep getting worse?
Nothing is for certain.
So, if proximity is the reasoning, what happens in a similar incident but say near/in the six-yard box with an obvious goal/shot on goal? Does proximity then get used if denied? Would they award/confirm the penalty due to closer shot in/near goal?
I thought they'd concluded that the standard of refereeing was in dire need of improvement, and that's partly why Howard Webb was brought in?
But now they've changed two things that give referees significantly more power to influence games:
We're only two games in and we're already seeing wildly inconsistent VAR calls (especially when it comes to penalties), and completely arbitrary enforcement of the rules surrounding arguing with the ref (as well as waving imaginary cards and timewasting).
But now they've changed two things that give referees significantly more power to influence games:
- They can book players (that aren't the captain - Bruno Fernandes notwithstanding) for approaching them and arguing.
- There's a higher threshold for "clear and obvious" when it comes to VAR overturning an on field decision.
We're only two games in and we're already seeing wildly inconsistent VAR calls (especially when it comes to penalties), and completely arbitrary enforcement of the rules surrounding arguing with the ref (as well as waving imaginary cards and timewasting).
The funniest part of that was that Ayew was on a yellow and took Saka down similarly monents earlier and avoided a second yellow for it.
I can only assume that today we are going to hear the apologies and that the referees from the Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal games are to be suspended for next weekend for their "mistakes".
I wouldn't mind so much but these guys are on anything from 70k to 200k a year, a frigging var ref is on a 30k retainer...they are meant to be the most elite refs in the UK who have come through the fire and brimstone of grassroots footy to make it to the top level. I know its a tough job and I sure wouldn't want it but when you see some of these decisions you have to wonder what the hell is happening behind the scenes to end up in this situation. They are charged with overseeing the games of a multi-billion pound industry, rewarded handsomely for doing so, and yet, seemingly, can't agree on the colour of shite when it comes to applying the rules.
Part of the problem is they have a massive rate of attrition when it comes to new ref, not many make it past the lower levels because its a bit shit down there, poorly rewarded and thankless. It takes a certain kind of character to make it out which means the actual pool of top flight refs to choose from is rather small, more needs to done to retain newly qualified refs and encourage them to stay in the game, the money is certainly there to do that.
Mics would also help at the top level to reduce abuse and bring transparency to the process, a little go pro could be used as well to help people understand what it is a referee sees. I know top flight refs would probably be reticent to do this but they are professionals who are highly rewarded and it would help reduce abuse, increase transparency and improve understanding. All of which are needed.
At the same time as I say all this and dislike the current standard of refereeing I don't want it to become some sort of robotic process, the refereeing and the decisions that come with it add to the emotion and enjoyment of the game, it's part of the spirit. VAR should only used in edge cases to clear up uncertain situations, not used as a crutch. Refs can essentially pass the buck to VAR and the letter by letter interpretation of the rule book, I don't personally really want that. I accept mistakes will be made; it happens, their human, but consistency please. I'm not sure where the balance in all this is but we're not there right now.
Part of the problem is they have a massive rate of attrition when it comes to new ref, not many make it past the lower levels because its a bit shit down there, poorly rewarded and thankless. It takes a certain kind of character to make it out which means the actual pool of top flight refs to choose from is rather small, more needs to done to retain newly qualified refs and encourage them to stay in the game, the money is certainly there to do that.
Mics would also help at the top level to reduce abuse and bring transparency to the process, a little go pro could be used as well to help people understand what it is a referee sees. I know top flight refs would probably be reticent to do this but they are professionals who are highly rewarded and it would help reduce abuse, increase transparency and improve understanding. All of which are needed.
At the same time as I say all this and dislike the current standard of refereeing I don't want it to become some sort of robotic process, the refereeing and the decisions that come with it add to the emotion and enjoyment of the game, it's part of the spirit. VAR should only used in edge cases to clear up uncertain situations, not used as a crutch. Refs can essentially pass the buck to VAR and the letter by letter interpretation of the rule book, I don't personally really want that. I accept mistakes will be made; it happens, their human, but consistency please. I'm not sure where the balance in all this is but we're not there right now.
Just caught up on the Liverpool ones because they sounded juicy. The penalty decision is a disgrace as he clearly dives (literally flops like a magikarp). MacAllister's straight red was also laughable.
These guys running VAR remind me of the bullshit you get when you bring consultants in to "help" your business. Their entire purpose seems to be looking like they're doing a job rather than doing a good one.
These guys running VAR remind me of the bullshit you get when you bring consultants in to "help" your business. Their entire purpose seems to be looking like they're doing a job rather than doing a good one.
Are you kidding me? Garnacho didn't strike the ball into a stationary defender. The defender rushed into the tackle with his arms spread like Peter Schmeichel in his prime. The defender rushing in was the only reason why it was close proximity in the first place. He put himself in that position. Nobody else. Of course it's a penalty; unless you go all Sam Harris about it and think you have no free will, I am bloddy adamant about it being deliberate.
Exactly. It makes absolutely no sense. It's like kicking someone in the head is clearly an offense. However, if you go all Phil Jones about it and scrub your face to the grass, then one can discuss if it really is all that reckless to make a tackle on the floor. The defender clearly rushed into the situation. Thus it is clearly deliberate. Clearly his arms is not into his body. Obviously he is making himself bigger by so doing. It's about as blatant a penalty I have seen.
He’s literally saying that you can go diving in at their feet all Stevie Starfish and if it hits your hand from a foot away it’s not a handball because you’re too close to react.
It's funny because one of the big issues with VAR was that the threshold was actually too high, you'd see clear errors that couldn't be overruled because they weren't seen as big enough errors.
Crazy how that's not given. The hand is away from his side and stopped the ball going towards goal. For Dermot Gallagher to give the proximity excuse is ridiculous. So if a defender charges towards an attacker with his arms out that is now not deemed a penalty? This racket of refs needs disbanding because they're all too friendly with each other. VAR and former referees on media channels are being used to protect referee decisions even when they're wrong. Something has to change but it never does.
I fail to grasp it. I could understand it if the player was stationary at the time, but even then you would struggle to argue that his arms are in a natural position. When he sprints into the challenge and throws himself into the situation with arms outstretched like a handball goalie, it's as intentional as you can make it. It just makes no sense at all.
Meh. That's how it was before VAR and all these "where does the shirt sleeve start" shenanigans. I'm fine with it if its consistently applied. At the very least the ref should put out a statement after the game and say - "in my opinion he was too close, so no pen." And when the same ref makes a different decision another day for a similar incident, he should also be able to explain why it was different this time. I'd even accept something to the effect of "because I said so" as long as they're honest and open about it.
And as far as Dermot Gallagher goes, he's there just to make up stuff agreeing with whatever the ref's decision was. I'm sure there'll be another game this season with the exact opposite outcome for the same situation and he'll justify that decision too.