I'd think he is the one who would get a lot of game time as Alaba's cover and for who ever Pep chooses to play as the holding player in chief. For I feel Pep will rotate his front 5 a bit more than people think meaning Shaqiri should get a lot of game time further upfield
Toni Kroos
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@#160 Read it again. May be next time you'll get what she is trying to say.
Not sure about that. I'd say Martinez will be the one starting the big games as the holding player with Schweinsteiger moving back if Martinez isn't available. Then you have Can and Hoijberg as youth players who can fill in a few times and Kirchhoff who played that role for Mainz as well.
Pep's full backs are more wing backs, with the holding midfielder dropping between the centerbacks in possession (it's really more a 343/334 when we're attacking). Gustavo can't play that role and so far Contento is still with the team and Shaqiri can play that as well.
She is trying to say Bayern has a surplus of midfielders. iIn about 2000 words (didn't count them).
She asks the question "so why Thiago?" and "hold on. What special qualities does Alcantara bring?". Drop me a note if you find the part in that lenghy text where she gives us an answer more insightful than: "he is not without talent" and maybe Guardiola is just wanting to put his stamp on the team".
That was the exact role he played for Brazil in the Confeds?
As a wing back covering the whole flank on his own? Maybe I didn't make that clear. The second part of the post was aimed at the comment, Gustavo could fill in as back up for Alaba as the left full back.
Isn't that what most of us are wondering?
Bayern played a near perfect 4-2-3-1 last season. They blew everyone out of the water in every competition they participated. Their style of play was impressive and entertaining. They already have quality midfielders and quality back-ups. What was the need to bring in Thiago?
I would too like to be kept posted as soon as someone can give a convincing answer.
The problem arise isn't just on the first team for me Pep's biggest should be losing the likes of Can and Kroos. Young, German players who are being replaced by Spaniards by there Spanish coach. The team was already stacked and it was going to be hard to break in but now Pep's prodigal son has arrived who is being promised game time that Pep can't necessarily deliver without already harming the time of other deserving players.
If you start to lose some of the young Germans who it seems Bayern fans take tremendous pride in, then Pep could start to lose the fans. They aren't thrilled as it is already with this signing. Pep needs whatever his plan is to work and he needs it to be instantly successful or he's going to be turned on pretty quickly. From everything I've heard/read/seen signing Thiago is a massively controversial decision because it is a fundamental change to the core of the team and not just an addition to the squad.
Maybe not the thread for this.
If you start to lose some of the young Germans who it seems Bayern fans take tremendous pride in, then Pep could start to lose the fans. They aren't thrilled as it is already with this signing. Pep needs whatever his plan is to work and he needs it to be instantly successful or he's going to be turned on pretty quickly. From everything I've heard/read/seen signing Thiago is a massively controversial decision because it is a fundamental change to the core of the team and not just an addition to the squad.
Maybe not the thread for this.
Exactly my point. The question is legit, but blindingly obvious. From a commentary on a major sports site i expect a bit more than just repeating what everyone wonders. I expected at least an idea what might have driven Pep to that decision.
What does Thiago bring a Schweinsteiger, Kroos or Martinez lack? He knows the "Pep system" very well. He is technically extremely skilled, he is more dynamic than Kroos and more agile than both Schweini and Martinez.
Haven't seen enough of him to be sure about his playmaking genius, maybe he has that, too
The enemy of each Über-team in the last decades was standstill. Bayern didn't continue with Heynckes to avoid exactly that. Its Peps job to make sure the team develops further. This includes questioning everything that is "given".
Last years team had played two exhausting seasons without major changes in the key positions. Schweini and Lahm said to Co-Coach Gerland after the CL final: "We couldn't run the first 30 min, our legs were so heavy". The team undoubtedly had the potential to dominate europe another year or, if very lucky, two. Then..?
He gives them a different option. Their other midfielders don't seem to be as technical as him.
Drop me a mail when you done editing, strongwalker.
Novi a newbie poster says:
''It is very likely that Pep will be playing with a, as he calls it, hybrid position. That is a player which roles change depending on the situation. The main trigger ist whether the team possess the ball or not.
For a system like that, Peps needs a player which is incredible intelligent, is trained and proofen on the necessary "hybrid positions" and has the physis to run throughout the game.
This player will be Martinez.
If Bayern does NOT have the ball, Martinez will play a CB between Lahm and Dante/Boateng. This will create a 4 man last line of defense.
-Lahm--Martinez--Boateng--Alaba
------------Schweinsteiger-------
According to Guardiolas understanding of football, a 4th defender is not needed once his team got the ball. In this situation, Martinez will become the flexible hybrid player and will move up the field to overtake Schweinsteigers position to help him move further up.
---Lahm---Boateng---Alaba--
-----Martinez----------------
--------------Schweinsteiger--
That way, Pep is able to create one more place in the midfield and can bring an additional player into the team, as needed.
Depending on the situation, Pep can bring all sorts of option onto the pitch:
---Lahm---Boateng---Alaba---
-----------Martinez---------
Player X-------Schweinsteiger
Counterpressing/Keeping the scoresheet: Gustavo
Long balls, creating gaps with long balls, shooting from second row: Toni Kroos
etc. pp.
So Bayern can play with a world class "double 6" with Schweinsteiger and Gustavo, backed by a worldclass Martinez, that is insane. Image you need to score against a team like that:
-Lahm--Martinez--Boateng--Alaba
---Gustavo-----Schweinsteiger----
Robben---Gotze/Thiago/Muller---Ribery
-----------Mandzukic-------------
(I have chosen Mandzukic here, since he is a better pressing player then Muller).
Or Try defend against a team like that:
---Lahm---Boateng---Alaba---
-----------Martinez---------
-Schweinsteiger-------Kroos
------------Götze------------
Robben----------------Ribery
-----------Müller
So this 4-1-4-1 changes depensing on situation from a possible 4-1-4-1 into a 3-1-2-3-1.
That helps Pep create, if it works, and unmatched dynamic even Barcelona never had during their prime-time. Bayern will be able to substitute world-class player for each competitor.
And, by creating this one more spot, means that one more player can actually play each time which helps to rotate and keep the team happy/happier.
To get back to topic. Toni Kroos will play and so will all the others. In my opinion, if this works out, and it maybe does not this year, it will be really start something unprecedented. This is football total combined with a Libero (and no Libero) and the most flexible offensive line that history has ever seen.
I do believe Pep can pull it off and as he said: "I need smart players for my system". In my opinion the key players are not rather stupid (Lahm, Martinez, Kroos, Götze).
If it pulls off, we wittness football history and Toni Kroos will be part of it. ''
I feel he makes an interesting case
''It is very likely that Pep will be playing with a, as he calls it, hybrid position. That is a player which roles change depending on the situation. The main trigger ist whether the team possess the ball or not.
For a system like that, Peps needs a player which is incredible intelligent, is trained and proofen on the necessary "hybrid positions" and has the physis to run throughout the game.
This player will be Martinez.
If Bayern does NOT have the ball, Martinez will play a CB between Lahm and Dante/Boateng. This will create a 4 man last line of defense.
-Lahm--Martinez--Boateng--Alaba
------------Schweinsteiger-------
According to Guardiolas understanding of football, a 4th defender is not needed once his team got the ball. In this situation, Martinez will become the flexible hybrid player and will move up the field to overtake Schweinsteigers position to help him move further up.
---Lahm---Boateng---Alaba--
-----Martinez----------------
--------------Schweinsteiger--
That way, Pep is able to create one more place in the midfield and can bring an additional player into the team, as needed.
Depending on the situation, Pep can bring all sorts of option onto the pitch:
---Lahm---Boateng---Alaba---
-----------Martinez---------
Player X-------Schweinsteiger
Counterpressing/Keeping the scoresheet: Gustavo
Long balls, creating gaps with long balls, shooting from second row: Toni Kroos
etc. pp.
So Bayern can play with a world class "double 6" with Schweinsteiger and Gustavo, backed by a worldclass Martinez, that is insane. Image you need to score against a team like that:
-Lahm--Martinez--Boateng--Alaba
---Gustavo-----Schweinsteiger----
Robben---Gotze/Thiago/Muller---Ribery
-----------Mandzukic-------------
(I have chosen Mandzukic here, since he is a better pressing player then Muller).
Or Try defend against a team like that:
---Lahm---Boateng---Alaba---
-----------Martinez---------
-Schweinsteiger-------Kroos
------------Götze------------
Robben----------------Ribery
-----------Müller
So this 4-1-4-1 changes depensing on situation from a possible 4-1-4-1 into a 3-1-2-3-1.
That helps Pep create, if it works, and unmatched dynamic even Barcelona never had during their prime-time. Bayern will be able to substitute world-class player for each competitor.
And, by creating this one more spot, means that one more player can actually play each time which helps to rotate and keep the team happy/happier.
To get back to topic. Toni Kroos will play and so will all the others. In my opinion, if this works out, and it maybe does not this year, it will be really start something unprecedented. This is football total combined with a Libero (and no Libero) and the most flexible offensive line that history has ever seen.
I do believe Pep can pull it off and as he said: "I need smart players for my system". In my opinion the key players are not rather stupid (Lahm, Martinez, Kroos, Götze).
If it pulls off, we wittness football history and Toni Kroos will be part of it. ''
I feel he makes an interesting case
Rumour has it Martinez is set to be withdrawn into being Dante's partner.
I don't understand all the doom and gloom predictions. It's one player, just one. Pep's not kicking out deserved players, he's not disrespecting anyone so far. We let go off two players (Gomez, Tymoshchuk), we bought two players (Götze, Thiago). As long as Thiago is working just as hard as the others and playing just as good if not better, it won't be a problem when he starts. If Pep treats him different, starts him despite playing worse, then we have a problem, but I doubt that will happen. Bringing two or three new players in after a successful season isn't something controversial. You need fresh blood, new ideas, tweaks in tactics to stay unpredictable and keep the excitement up, keep the whole squad motivated. Everyone needs to work hard in pre-season, no one can relax and be sure of his starting spot and if there is one player who isn't happy with his situation, he will be allowed to leave, just like Gomez. I don't understand the concern for Emre Can either, he's 19 years old and many doubt he'll ever be good enough to start for Bayern, Thiago is clearly a way bigger talent. He can go on loan for 2 years like Kroos, Lahm or Alaba did for example and still is younger than Thiago now when he returns.
/edit:
feck, sorry, edited Tymoshchuk above instead of Mandzukic, of course he's still with the team
Pardon my language but post#173 is some crap with formations.
The starting formation on "paper" changes during the game as per the situation for any team. When do we leave 4 defenders behind to solely defend? Don't we have defenders join in attack?
That is some unnecessary crap to complicate a relatively simple game.
The starting formation on "paper" changes during the game as per the situation for any team. When do we leave 4 defenders behind to solely defend? Don't we have defenders join in attack?
That is some unnecessary crap to complicate a relatively simple game.
Dante and Martinez aren't even back with the team yet. I doubt Guardiola made a decision about a centerback partnership with two player he hasn't seen in training at all. He said, Martinez can play in defense, Shaqiri can play as a left back, Thiago as a forward. We don't even know the formation yet because key players like Schweinsteiger and Götze also haven't been with the team yet because of their injuries.
Was that aimed at me? I just tried to explain why Gustavo won't be the backup for Alaba. I don't really care about the numbers but thought they would help to make my point. The role of the fullbacks is different depending on what the manager wants them to do, we surely agree on that?
Sorry, friend
. No idea why I mixed the name up, I edited it above.
I think he meant Tymoschuk.
Sorry, friend
No problems, Balu. My other post wasn't directed at you but the post in which Red Indian quoted a newbie.
News to me too. Will Bayern be playing with no No.9? Bayern have ALWAYS played with a traditional No.9, no?
I think Madzukic must have pleased his club last season as he was consistently good, certainly to keep Gomez out of the side.
As this thread is supposed to be about Toni Kroos, @Honigstein tweeted that he reckons Kroos is possibly the one in danger of losing out. I think Kroos is an excellent player, and rate him better than Thiago.
Again, just a mistake, I already edited it above. Mandzukic is of course with the team, he scored yesterday in a pre-season game. Each Pizarro and Mandzukic played one half of the game as the lone striker.
We (United) should try to buy Gustavo. He just went further down the pecking order and at United he'll be pretty much a guaranteed starter. Kroos is too much "Bayern" to leave them right now.
Football simple?
computers can win at chess, but when robots play football... well.look at http://spielverlagerung.de/2013/01/17/zukunftsausblick-die-bayern-unter-josep-guardiola/ - it's far from easy
I agree with your critisism of the above post as it makes it sound too static. Modern teams fluently change their setup in a game and there is reason to believe that Peps Bayern will show us the masterclass in this.
Which is another hint what Pep might see in Thiago. A player who is good at this kind of stuff.
Balu, you're in Munich right? How would the fans view it if Kroos misses out under Guardiola? Kroos ain't exactly a local boy (born as far away from Bavaria as you can get in Germany, no?) but he's been there since youth.
Hard to tell, key players missing and 10 subs at half time usually.
4-1-4-1 with Kroos at #6 on saturday
Kroos isn't really a fan favorite, don't think it would be a huge deal. Doubt there are many who expect the team to be built around him for the next decade. But it won't happen. Kroos is imo the perfect fit to Guardiola's football. Kroos and Müller are the two players in the team with incredibly quick thinking, they don't keep the ball at their feet, they move with and without it and pass it instantly without thinking. They should play important roles.
Against Brecia Calcio, which was imo the most serious pre-season game so far, we started:
-----------Mandzukic
Ribery---Kroos---Shaqiri---Müller
------------Höjbjerg
Alaba--Boateng--van Buyten-Lahm
-------------Neuer
with lots of changes in the second half. But most games looked comparable to that.
It's really hard to tell. Schweinsteiger, Götze haven't trained with the team because of their injuries and Martinez, Dante are still on vacation after the confed cup. Those 4 will most likely start regularly, without seeing them in training and take part in several pre-season games, no one really knows what to expect and Pep isn't talking about formations or tactics. He's basically saying he wants 11 players to attack in possession and 11 players to defend without the ball, and everyone has to do a lot of running. That's all we know, everything else is speculation.
I can see Kroos and Thiago play together, yes. Something like ...
------------Müller
Ribery - Kroos - Thiago - Robben
-----------Martinez
Alaba - Dante - Boateng - Lahm
------------Neuer
... could work fine, doubt it's the best formation with the players available though.
Sorry, I don't think I made my point as clearly as I should. I didn't want it to sound like this was definitely a bad move for the club. I wanted to say that Pep was bringing in a player that he was guaranteeing game time to. Bayern haven't lost any key players from last season. If they brought in a few players that could enhance the squad or replace departures, or someone that could make an impact but isn't expecting immediate matches, then no one would care at all. The issue is Pep is signalling a fundamental change to the core of the team. A new midfielder who will play a lot. If it doesn't work out fans will be unhappy, players will be unhappy and some younger players may begin to leave. When/if that happens Pep's dug his own grave.
Of course if it all works out this season then there's no worry. But still, I may be generalizing but footballers aren't the brightest bunch and I would assume that as a Bayern youth player if I saw a Spanish coach come in and take places away for a Spanish player (who to be fair is all potential and promise at this point and is far from the finished article) I assume I wouldn't be happy. When youth players leave fans get unhappy. Just look at Redcafe. SAF is untouchable but the knives are out for somebody everytime a reserve leaves. See Pogba or Morrison. That had nothing to do with replacing them either.
They'll keep him. He can play in the centre of defence and midfield and I think he can occasionally play as a full back too, Guardiola will use him as he used Mascherano at Barcelona in an utility role.
He had a very thin squad in defense at Barcelona though. We have 4 centerbacks and 4 fullbacks in the squad (not counting Martinez and Badstuber). I think Gustavo could be convinced to leave, but it won't be cheap, doubt the club wants to sell him.
Football simple?
look at http://spielverlagerung.de/2013/01/17/zukunftsausblick-die-bayern-unter-josep-guardiola/ - it's far from easy
I agree with your critisism of the above post as it makes it sound too static. Modern teams fluently change their setup in a game and there is reason to believe that Peps Bayern will show us the masterclass in this.
Which is another hint what Pep might see in Thiago. A player who is good at this kind of stuff.
I'll have to read that at leisure. Is it the same when translated to English or does it lose its essence?
Thiago does stuff? It makes sense now. Stuff is goooood..
I am anxiously waiting for this masterclass or ultimate football that Pep is supposed to play next season. Also, would be interesting to see how he is going to juggle a squad of so many good players.
I am hoping that it goes tits up.
It's an article from January, pure speculation about what could be, don't think it's that interesting now and I really have no idea how the comment he linked to is relevant to the discussion. In two weeks after the supercup (July 27th) against Dortmund we know more about Bayern under Pep.
So they basically sign who they want but no one can't sign their (valuable) players ?
It was a comment on Shinjisan's remark about football being simple.
I'll make sure to mark irony explicitly next time,with a smiley maybe.
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