Thoughts on Tuchel as a potential United manager?
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Eh? Like what.
If this is pointed to me I've made my stance crystal clear. Both failed this season.
Yep. Only one of them failed infinitely worse
Unsure. Finishing 3rd in the Bundasliga with Bayern Munich and finishing trophyless on top is a fecking travesty. When both last happen?Yep. Only one of them failed infinitely worse
I know when this discussion 'last happen'
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/thoughts-on-tuchel-as-a-potential-united-manager.469314/page-67
3rd doesnt have the same meaning when the winners went undefeated.
They finished with 72 points and won the titles previous 3 seasons with 71, 77 and 78. Similar goal differences every season.
It's a bad season for them but it's nowhere near the catastrophe ours was.
Not sure what this is pointing to - but can you tell me when Bayern last finished 3rd and without a cup?
If the other option is Southgate, bring in Tuchel tomorrow.
Damning, we're in 2024.
Fair play Ten Hag's finish was worse by way of league finish - and even stylistically I'm not even going to pretend he wasn't worse than Tuchel. But I don't think either seasons are reflective of what the coaches are actually about.
The last time United finished lower than 7th in the league was 1990 where we finished I believe 13th, and also won the FA cup that year.
Quality stuff.
Now tell me, when was the last time we finished 8th in the Premier League?
It's the first time in the Premier League. Ten Hag also has had a far worse injury crisis and literally no owners, but hey, why does that matter right?
I think it's outstanding how much you're nit picking into posts without taking my actual overarching point into record.
Ten Hag and Tuchel have both had embarrassing seasons in the league. Tuchel has form for shit talking his higher ups in public, or massively falling out with them behind the scenes whereas Ten Hag doesn't. Tuchel has a record of being abrasive whereas Ten Hag doesn't. Both Ten Hag and Tuchel are objectively good coaches in spite of these terrible seasons.
Hence my view that this is a sideways step.
I am well aware and still would like him appointed
Its an abject failure, moreover he didnt even look convincing the season prior. I actually like Tuchel, my problem is can he work with a 4 at the back system and can he adapt to the owners. His coaching pedigree and ability to work with youth is without doubt.
That’s a Löw blow
Not you but for all those very strongly for giving ETH another year. I agree that Tuchel failed, and I also agree with the scrutiny placed on him, as it should be for any manager in charge of or potentially of United. Our disagreement would be in how we compare the managers’ ability to lead us under the new structure and who had the worse failure.
On management under the new structure, if INEOS put in the work where ETH could produce better results, then it’s reasonable to say that Tuchel would also produce better results. And all things being equal, I’d argue that he’d help produce better results. Despite this season, his CV is more impressive than ETH. And even without the trophy, they still put in 94 goals with an almost +49 GD, which contradicts the idea that his football is boring.
On who had the worse failure, the numbers speak for themselves, with the eye test being another good indicator. ETH did better in the trophy department, but if the trophy ranking thread is anything to go by, most agree that the league is the most accurate assessment of a team in the season. Considering our injury woes and lack of depth, simply ETH did not do what was needed to be done to adapt and secure up the midfield shape. 9 points separates us from 4th, and we all know there’s at least 3 games where simple better judgment in tactics/subs would have seen us through. To me that’s unacceptable.
This does put it into perspective actually. They had a bit of a dip that much is clear, but in reality, not much and usually it would be close or near enough to have them winning the title in that league. But this season was a freak with them up against a literal unbeatable team. Interesting, I'd not thought to look at their previous points tallies over the last few years.
Makes (if you've got sense) think.
They've been pretty mediocre in the Bundesliga for I'd say about 5 of the last 6 seasons. They underperformed their average of those by about 5 gd and 5-6 points.
A strong Bayern season is like 82+ points and +65 goal difference. I guess it's just that Dortmund, Stuttgart, RB and now Leverkusen have collectively upped their games since a decade ago.
No context. Alright.
Ten Hag has us finished in the worst spot ever in the premier league. Thats facts. Had us in last spot in the easiest champions league group. facts.
We have regressed hard. Meanwhile Tuchel managed to improve on their points total from last season.
Yes they where terrible in the cup. But so where we. We got extremely lucky against Coventry....
Tuchel is an obvious upgrade on Ten Hag
I do think the whole finishing 3rd thing is overblown. After 20 games, they were on track to have the fourth best Bundesliga season of all time. It's just that they were up against a team that was on track to have the best of all time, and it was only once it looked like they weren't going to catch them (when they lost against Leverkuson themselves) they dropped off badly and only won 7 of their last 14 games. It's obviously not ideal, but it's a bit different than struggling all season. There were a couple of times under Fergie that we also took our foot off the pedal once it was obvious we weren't winning the league. For teams that are so used to finishing 1st, anything else feels like a failure and it's difficult to be 100% up for the games.
I'm not saying it was a good season or anything, but I don't think the 'finishing 3rd' thing really shows how the season went. Especially since they were also minutes from making the CL final.
Tuchel won feck all this season and never once looked convincing as a bayern coach. He scraped minimum expectation last year whilst ten hag exceeded his, albeit flopping hard this season.
Also facts.
But even if one wants to argue tuchel stint wasn't as bad as ten hag that's fine by me (I'm fine with accepting ten hag had a worse season if that makes it easier).
I'm just wondering if your back is OK after moving the goalposts constantly from what we originally discussed.
I have simply been trying to put both managers in the same context. The one who has been all over the shop is you. 1 million different excuses for Ten hag but none of them apparently count for Tuchel.
I dont have a problem with people not wanting Tuchel at all. He is far from my favourite manager. But when you slate Tuchel based on this season you surely cannot want Ten hag to stay either.
And the last games and losses during the last third of the season that make the gap larger are without the likes of Neuer, Gnabry, Musiala, Sané, Coman.
Let's be clear, I've given neither a pass or an excuse for this season. Even noting context both managers should have done better. I've also said they're both good coaches, I've said changing for Tuchel is a sideways step at best.
Considering our initial debate wasn't even to do with Ten hag im still wondering why you Crowbarred him in.
Some rumors of Tuchel picking up .. really hoping it's him out of all of the available ones. My list is
Tuchel, RDZ, Ten Hag, Southgate and the rest.
The CB situation will be interesting if he comes in and insists on playing a back three.
Tuchel, RDZ, Ten Hag, Southgate and the rest.
The CB situation will be interesting if he comes in and insists on playing a back three.
Not my cup of tea, but preferable a thousand times over either Harry Potter or Gareth “mediocrity” Southgate.
Southgate wouldn't even be on it, still wonder if they secured someone completely under the radar
Why should he?
The bold bit makes no sense. I've slated both managers. If tuchel were our manager and had this season if keep him. Ten hag is our manager and had this season, and guess what, Id rather keep him.
People are under the impression that he likes it.
People are clueless.
beginning to think the club has forgotten the Palace fiasco (following Villa being beaten there by even more) and will stick with ETH. I thought this until the Palace game
So you think neither is good enough but would still keep them.
No. I think both had uncharacteristically bad seasons. I've said this repeatedly. I don't want to sack a manager because of one seasons standing that's sticking out as an anomaly relative to their career.
Ah okay. That's absolutely fair.
Agreed. What I dont agree with is people saying we should sack Ten Hag cause a poor season, granted our worst season, the alternatives have also had poor seasons, Poch, Tuchel and Di Zerbi. So why is there so much hype on these managers?
Also Tuchel has proved, the more time and money he is given, the worse he performs.
I saw posters asking what is the difference between United and Real, now i think i see the glimps of it.
-our fans are too reasonable and sensible unlike Real fans that are demanding and entitled.
-our winning mentality is not that winning at all cost like Real, they are ruthless from top to bottom and that mentality breed winning. I dont like Real and really dont like Barca but have to admire their ruthlessness. They dont give managers and players leeway or excuses or much love in as we do here.
-United keeps circling around the idea of building and transitioning for the last decade now. Let the top build the squad (that what we want and what they do), manager come in manage the squad, winning and or find ways to win.
-Tuchel is the best avalable now, get him in, get top 4, compete and try to win something. Try to win and building can go hand in hand. If it not work out, find the next best.
-our fans are too reasonable and sensible unlike Real fans that are demanding and entitled.
-our winning mentality is not that winning at all cost like Real, they are ruthless from top to bottom and that mentality breed winning. I dont like Real and really dont like Barca but have to admire their ruthlessness. They dont give managers and players leeway or excuses or much love in as we do here.
-United keeps circling around the idea of building and transitioning for the last decade now. Let the top build the squad (that what we want and what they do), manager come in manage the squad, winning and or find ways to win.
-Tuchel is the best avalable now, get him in, get top 4, compete and try to win something. Try to win and building can go hand in hand. If it not work out, find the next best.
Contradictory post. I agree you can go for a manager to try and win and build, as they can go hand in hand but you have also mentioned a manager who has no history of doing that, in fact Tuchel has proven over his time he can win but not build. He is a short term 1/2 year manager.
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