Some awfully high standards for judging Tuchel that don’t seem to apply to the manager we have now. Why so?
Thoughts on Tuchel as a potential United manager?
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Most managers do. If Ten Hag had been sacked this season, or still does get sacked, then he's gone the same way. For whatever reason, most coaches fall off eventually, but rediscover themselves a bit elsewhere. It's only really the very elite that don't. I suppose they're just like any of us, who get complacent or things get stale if they stay at the same workplace. Especially in football where it is intense and they are working many hours.
Obviously he's made a rod for his own back with some clubs and has fallen out with people above him. When you throw a blanket statement over it looks like it could be an issue. But when you look deeper, and without bias, at what has taken place, you see that he was possibly right about some of the things.
We've got Chelsea fans who didn't want him to go and still want him back. At Dortmund the whole issue about his team nearly getting blown up, where I agree with his stance. That set things off between him and Watzke and it was down hill from there. PSG, we love to laugh at them and the way they were run. With Leonardo in charge there was gaffes galore. We can laugh at it, but a coach, who wants to win things, isn't allowed to disagree with some of the thdecisions he was making? There's other good coaches who have failed there. That doesn't make them shit - one has just took a struggling Villa to the top 4.
As I initially said, if he and Ineos discuss the position and all parties are clear on expectations and their roles, and he's happy, then I'd gladly have him here. Because if you can take away the bullshit that he doesn't like, he's one of the best coaches around.
Most managers begin their implosions at season 2.
If Bayern had their way he'd be going into season 3. They obviously didn't think it was so bad in the end.
Well he had sackable form because he literally sacked them. They only turned back to him because there were no options in the market.
He sacked who?
In your opinion. The story was that their board weren't even in agreement over it, and, for the little it's worth, the players wanted him to stay. Players that are used to winning things every year. But it doesn't matter anyway. Good coaches get sacked, then move on. It doesn't stop them being good coaches.
Are you trying to claim Bayern didn't sack Tuchel mid way through the season? It's clear they wanted him to feck off at seasons end.
Why would I claim that? Just that they changed their minds, and when they did, stories came out that it wasn't even unanimous that they wanted him gone in the first place.
Right. So they did find him sackable to the extent they wanted him gone by the end of the season.
So back to my point, Tuchel tends to either implode or fall out with owners from full season 2 onwards. Way too early, that's Conte / Jose territory.
And yet he has never done as terrible a job as Ten Hag this season.
Right. And they changed their mind, those that wanted to sack him.
Like I said, there's reasons. If Ineos can work out why, and they think they can avoid them, then he's a good option. S considerable upgrade on what we have. Bayern have downgraded, more fool them. They're a shit show themselves these days and he's the second coach they've sacked and backtracked on.
Well he arguably has, because with THAT bayern side he finished 3rd and cupless in a lower quality league.
Tuchel has not covered himself in glory at Bayern, that much is certain, but there are some strongly mitigating circumstances. The question now is, will you back him once he is our manager?
No he hasnt. He won the league last season and went out of the semi final of the champions league this season. Third place after two teams having freak seasons.
We ended up at 8th and out of the champions league from a super easy group. We ended behind teams like Newcastle and Chelsea who had terrible seasons themselves.
They changed their mind because it was a barren market.
So as I said, he implodes with owners and or gets sacked from season 2 onwards. This isn't even debatable it's happened at the majority of his stints.
You're talking like it's a certainty.
But manger will get backing from me as a clean slate.
His achievement last season was not a better achievement than ten hag last season. Winning the league with bayern is a minimum expectation, he just about met it. Ten hag exceeded expectations results wise for his debut year.
And tuchels last season was a bigger embarrassment, trophyless for the first time in two decades of bayern history. They walk a cup every single year for fecksake
That is good. Because internet discussions have a funny dynamic of tribalism and entrenchment, and I wouldn't want posters who wanted to keep ETH to harbour lingering anger about having been on the losing side of a discussion, and then be passive aggressive in the future after a manager they argued against got the job or someone they fought for lost it. We have seen it with Ole, Mourinho, also with players (De Gea nostalgics vs Onana etc).
Just as for me, if Ten Hag indeed were to stay (I don't think so but obviously I do not have inside knowledge), I will think it is a baffling and incredibly risky decision, but I will certainly hope that I am wrong about it just as I was wrong about Arteta back then (I found it baffling too they didn't sack him). I welcomed Ten Hag enthusiastically when he came, I was very disappointed by both his performance and his demeanour this season and I strongly believe he deserves the sack for it, but I'd be certainly ready to for him to come good despite all that.
His achievement last season was not a better achievement than ten hag last season. Winning the league with bayern is a minimum expectation, he just about met it. Ten hag exceeded expectations results wise for his debut year.
And tuchels last season was a bigger embarrassment, trophyless for the first time in two decades of bayern history. They walk a cup every single year for fecksake
You have to be absurdly deluded or agenda driven to think that is somehow worse then leading us to our worst ever season in the league and an absurdly embarrasing exit in last place from the easiest champions league group.
Bayern have won the cup 3 times in the last 10 seasons, and haven't won it in 4.His achievement last season was not a better achievement than ten hag last season. Winning the league with bayern is a minimum expectation, he just about met it. Ten hag exceeded expectations results wise for his debut year.
And tuchels last season was a bigger embarrassment, trophyless for the first time in two decades of bayern history. They walk a cup every single year for fecksake
I once again think y'all are too focused on the results and not enough on the performances. Bayern this season have the best xgD/90 in the top five leagues in Europe. They made it to the CL SF, played about even with RM and were a bit unlucky not to go through. They scored 94 goals and conceded 45 (~same as last season and season before). They have better or basically equivalent stats in most departments to Caf darlings Leverkusen (open play xG, open play xGA, 10+ pass sequences, control of the pitch, PPDA etc.)
https://fbref.com/en/comps/Big5/Big-5-European-Leagues-Stats
https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/08/german-bundesliga-stats-2023-24/
We on the other hand finished 8th and are lucky to be there. We should've finished something like 12th or 13th - just happened to get lucky at the right times. Everyone's riding high on that FA cup glory but that was basically a Spurs under Nuno type counter attacking performance when they won a series of games at WHL more than an epic contest between two even sides.
Sure if your only claim is that Tuchel is an explosive character and isn't right for the club, it's hard to argue against that. But he's available for free and has shown more both in the league and cup than Ten Hag has ever shown with any club and we'd be dumb to turn him down.
https://fbref.com/en/comps/Big5/Big-5-European-Leagues-Stats
https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/08/german-bundesliga-stats-2023-24/
We on the other hand finished 8th and are lucky to be there. We should've finished something like 12th or 13th - just happened to get lucky at the right times. Everyone's riding high on that FA cup glory but that was basically a Spurs under Nuno type counter attacking performance when they won a series of games at WHL more than an epic contest between two even sides.
Sure if your only claim is that Tuchel is an explosive character and isn't right for the club, it's hard to argue against that. But he's available for free and has shown more both in the league and cup than Ten Hag has ever shown with any club and we'd be dumb to turn him down.
You have to be absurdly deluded to think finishing 3rd in a 2 horse league with no silverware when managing bayern fecking Munich isn't equally bad if not worse
Bayern hadn't been trophyless in about 2 decades.
This.
Bayern finished on 72 points, 1 more than last season when they won it. 72 points would have served to win the league in 8 of the 10 last season.
So no, it is no comparison to having Manchester United finish 8th with a negative GD. It is different leagues.
Incidentally, one of the two times the 2nd placed team in Bundeliga got more than 71 points in the last decade was Tuchel's Dortmund with 78 points..
They were trophyless in 2012, managed by Jupp Heynckes. What a loser eh. Surely worse than Ten Hag's season with us right.
I made a similar point advanced stats suggest that they were one of the best team in Europe and the best attack. Thei issue is that for some reason they conceded way more goals than their opponents' xG would suggest.
Heycknes isn't a loser and nor is Tuchel. But tuchel certainly had an equally bad if not worse season. Even if you argue he hasn't it doesn't mean his bayern stint wasn't an abject failure.
Thats great. But he finished third in a two horse league and got dicked on in the cup by a third division German side. He failed pretty hard.
Bayern would have had to go undefeated a manner that was better than Leverkusen to have won the league this year, so I don’t think this is a very good argument against Tuchel when comparing with a manager who oversaw 8th place and -1 GD. And while no trophies for Bayern for the first time in a couple decades is bad, that’s still not as bad as worst ever finish in over 30 years for United where midtable and lower table clubs have consistently outplayed us.
You keep mentioning two horse league when the reality is that it was a one horse race this year.
So basically I present some facts and you respond with the same silly sentence. Good talk.
I gave you facts.They aren't silly sentences. Like or lump it you got hit with facts and just don't like it.
No cups, shit finish, never convincing as a bayern coach. Sacked midway the season by the owners.
Your facts were wrong. Bayern don't "walk a cup every season" and they didn't go trophyless for the first time in two decades. But hey, I'm not the one who will have to perform the "mental gymnastics", to use your favourite term, to reconcile your agenda driven badmouthing of Tuchel with him being our next and hopefully successful manager.
It isn’t a fact that it’s a two horse league. Usually you wouldn’t even have Leverkusen as one of the horses.
I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. The Bundasliga is always a competition between Bayern and one other. I guess this season it wasn't, it was arguably a one horse league with Bayern not involved. That makes it even more nuts on Tuchel.
Its been a long day, my posts earlier today were more accurate I believe. I mixed up the last time bayern had 3rd place (almost two decades) with the trophyless (over one decade) points.
That being said, his season was an abject failure. The season prior was not conviction of him as a manager either and anyone who even had an armchair following could see that.
Moreover this entire sub debate seems to have started because I said Tuchel hasn't shown the consistent pedigree when applying 4 at the back. Another poster said he did at Bayern, and I've explained how that isn't the case.
Objectively speaking he's a good coach. He had a hilariously bad return at Bayern but like Ten Hag, I don't think the last season is reflective of his ceiling. My biggest worry about tuchel is hel either implode or fall out with owners from season 2. Maybe he has bad luck, but he's done it consistently.
Another 2 year manager job. Folk never learn
And when that happens we sack him and get McKenna. We need to stop being so fecking precious about our managers.
Its not about being precious. Tuchel had a shit season that's not reflective of his managerial pedigree. Ten hag had the same.
Tuchel shit talks his owners and airs his dirty laundry. Ten hag doesn't.
Tuchel and ten hag are both very good coaches. I see the move as a sideways one. That's all there is to it.
If Tuchel was our manager these same posters would be worshipping his bottled farts.
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