Thoughts on Tuchel as a potential United manager?

[romufc]

You shouldn't blame the club for LVG being unrealistic, I read the interview where he said he thought we could get anyone and he wanted Muller! That's just nonsense, granted we have had major issues in recruitment, only a fool would argue against that, but LVG is one of the primary reasons we no longer have squad depth after he sold players like Evans, Welbeck and Nani then replaced them with worse options.

The reason Woodward failed, in addition to his character flaws, was that he trusted managers like LVG and Jose too much in recruitment. Jose fell out with Woodward after the latter pushed back on signing a 3rd CB in the 3 consecutive summers but you will never hear a manager admit that he got a signing wrong. We didn't have a structure or a transfer committee, Jose relied heavily on his Portuguese connections and our transfer strategy upto Ineos was heavily manager led.

Oh really was our strategy manager led?

So what about when Jose wanted to sell Martial and Shaw? why wasnt he able to do that?

What about when Ten Hag wanted to sell Maguire and McTominay?

So you think our signings were manager led all the time? Was Alexis Jose led? Was Ronaldo Ole led?

Was Amad, Pellestri, Donny Ole led?

Jose wanted Maguire, was that from his Portugese connections?

 

[Amir]

The point is he finished 19 points of the title. You can't compare Fergie to Tuchel because Fergie won 13 PL titles competing against the likes of Chelsea, City, Arsenal.

Well, when it happened to Fergie in 2004 and 2005 he didn't have five of those titles, City were not relevant and he hasn't beaten Chelsea yet. Yeah, those things do happen.

The comparisons are pointless anyway for me because Fergie is one off, but also because any manager is going to have seasons with less success.

 

[VP89]

5 at the back doesn't work at Mancehster United?

Yes. We do not do that system and you can be sure Wilcox and Ratcliffe will not want that system embedded. Fans will also not accept it

 

[Kaos]

I don't see the point of Tuchel coming in to replace ETH. He has a pretty underwhelming domestic record and his speciality seems to be cup competitions.....so just like Ten Hag then? Add to that his insistence on playing a dreaded back 5, as well as his Mourinho like tendency to fall out with every club he's been at. We might as well keep Ten Hag if that's what we're getting. And worst of all - he refuses to embrace the bald and decides to champion a combover. Only the late and great Sir Bobby gets away with that one.

I'd honestly prefer Poch or De Zerbi over Tuchel, and I'm not particularly keen on either of them to be begin with.

 

[romufc]

I don't see the point of Tuchel coming in to replace ETH. He has a pretty underwhelming domestic record and his speciality seems to be cup competitions.....so just like Ten Hag then? Add to that his insistence on playing a dreaded back 5, as well as his Mourinho like tendency to fall out with every club he's been at. We might as well keep Ten Hag if that's what we're getting. And worst of all - he refuses to embrace the bald and decides to champion a combover. Only the late and great Sir Bobby gets away with that one.

I'd honestly prefer Poch or De Zerbi over Tuchel, and I'm not particularly keen on either of them to be begin with.

Exactly, I cant see how someone has looked at Tuchels record and thinks he can challenge for a league title. He went to Chelsea won them the CL.. well done, that is a great achievement. Lets not forget Di Matteo done it in similar circumstances.

Went to big Bayern Munich, won the league on goal difference and then finished 19 points behind the winners.

He took the best team and finished 3rd. Why do fans think he can take a 8th place team into PL title contenders. No chance.

 

[pocco]

Yes. We do not do that system and you can be sure Wilcox and Ratcliffe will not want that system embedded. Fans will also not accept it

I'm not sure what their thoughts are on this type of thing, or if it is an overarching philosophy that they are looking at, and not detail like formation. But when implemented well, the 3 at the back formations are effective and can produce good football. It's about the finer details. If a coach says they want a flat 5 ATB then I'm sure it'll be a straight 'no' though, I agree. Personally though I am open minded about it, as I've seen the 3/5 ATB implemented well elsewhere and to good effect.

 

[Lyng]

I do. That's why I think he failed in the league and champions league too.
But he won a cup and tuchel didn't.

Both still had bad seasons, but going back to the initial point I quoted you on, his Chelsea style that worked for a bit was 5 at the back, that wouldn't fly here. You said he can adapt with systems, and I pointed at how his Bayern system led to a terrible stint at the club.

He played 4 at the back at PSG and took them to the only final they have been at so far.

 

[Lyng]

Exactly, I cant see how someone has looked at Tuchels record and thinks he can challenge for a league title. He went to Chelsea won them the CL.. well done, that is a great achievement. Lets not forget Di Matteo done it in similar circumstances.

Went to big Bayern Munich, won the league on goal difference and then finished 19 points behind the winners.

He took the best team and finished 3rd. Why do fans think he can take a 8th place team into PL title contenders. No chance.

So rather stick with the guy that landed us in our worst position in the premier league era and got us dumped out of the Champions League in a piss easy group. If we cant win it all right away why improve at all?

 

[romufc]

So rather stick with the guy that landed us in our worst position in the premier league era and got us dumped out of the Champions League in a piss easy group. If we cant win it all right away why improve at all?

Right so you want to improve to third and then he will leave in 2 years.. so you want to improve for 1 season and then happy to look for another manager again in 2 years?

Then yes, I would rather stick with the manager who put us in our worst position.

 

[VP89]

He played 4 at the back at PSG and took them to the only final they have been at so far.

Yes. He also got sacked.

 

[romufc]

He played 4 at the back at PSG and took them to the only final they have been at so far.

He also got sacked when they were 3rd in a one team league.

 

[pocco]

Exactly, I cant see how someone has looked at Tuchels record and thinks he can challenge for a league title. He went to Chelsea won them the CL.. well done, that is a great achievement. Lets not forget Di Matteo done it in similar circumstances.

Went to big Bayern Munich, won the league on goal difference and then finished 19 points behind the winners.

He took the best team and finished 3rd. Why do fans think he can take a 8th place team into PL title contenders. No chance.

There's more evidence in his favour for being able to do this, than there is ETH.

 

[pocco]

Just a reminder of what @TheMagicFoolBus had to say about Tuchel (a Chelsea fan who watched them each week, for what it's worth), before Ten Hag's RedCafe Chihuahua's try to completely rewrite history...

Also we weren't actually negative but just couldn't finish anything. Reece James was by far our best and most consistent finisher under Tuchel which should tell you everything you need to know. The football was excellent.

Not too much hoofing but Tuchel adapted to the limitations of Mendy in goal. What stood out the most about Chelsea under Tuchel was the defined patterns of play in our third and in the middle third. We would consistently beat presses and win midfield battles in large part because of how Tuchel had us set up.

I know I'm biased but Chelsea under Tuchel in the latter half of the CL campaign in 20/21 was as dominant as any side has been in recent memory. So many people are going on about the box midfield in modern tactics - the guy who brought that to prominence first was Tuchel at Chelsea.

Honestly this thread is comical at times. Tuchel is a fecking genius and personally I desperately hope he get reappointed at Chelsea. I don't mean to be rude but United supporters turning their noses up at him is absolutely absurd when he'd be by a fecking mile your best manager since SAF.

 

[Lyng]

Yes. He also got sacked.

And? Leonardo is a mad man.

 

[Lyng]

He also got sacked when they were 3rd in a one team league.

And we ended on 8th place despite having spent vast amounts of money on our managers targets.

 

[romufc]

There's more evidence in his favour for being able to do this, than there is ETH.

Its because Tuchel cannot stay at a club longer than 2 full seasons before throwing his toys out the pram. in 6 years, 3 clubs he has only ever had 1 full season where he is not sacked or being sacked at the end of the season.

That was at Chelsea where he finished 3rd. When everyone thought Chelsea will challenge for the title. This season he had a full season but knew in February he is getting sacked.

 

[Lyng]

Right so you want to improve to third and then he will leave in 2 years.. so you want to improve for 1 season and then happy to look for another manager again in 2 years?

Then yes, I would rather stick with the manager who put us in our worst position.

Id rather end in 3rd next year then 8th or lower thats for sure.

 

[Lyng]

Its because Tuchel cannot stay at a club longer than 2 full seasons before throwing his toys out the pram. in 6 years, 3 clubs he has only ever had 1 full season where he is not sacked or being sacked at the end of the season.

That was at Chelsea where he finished 3rd. When everyone thought Chelsea will challenge for the title. This season he had a full season but knew in February he is getting sacked.

They might have if not for Boehly. Had Abramovich and that structure stayed put it would probably have looked different.

 

[romufc]

Id rather end in 3rd next year then 8th or lower thats for sure.

3rd no trophy v 8th and trophy.

I am taking a trophy because as soon as Tuchel finishes 3rd he will throw his toys out a pram and 2 years later we are looking at another rebuild.

They might have if not for Boehly. Had Abramovich and that structure stayed put it would probably have looked different.

Maybe but we dont have that either.. We have Glazers and no structure.

 

[Lyng]

3rd no trophy v 8th and trophy.

I am taking a trophy because as soon as Tuchel finishes 3rd he will throw his toys out a pram and 2 years later we are looking at another rebuild.



Maybe but we dont have that either.. We have Glazers and no structure.

Who knows if they would have got a trophy. Tuchel has won the champions league after all and has won different leagues, something Ten Hag hasnt yet.

Well Ineos claim they want to implement a similar structure, albeit I will admit things arent looking rosy so far with how they are treating this manager business.

 

[pocco]

Its because Tuchel cannot stay at a club longer than 2 full seasons before throwing his toys out the pram. in 6 years, 3 clubs he has only ever had 1 full season where he is not sacked or being sacked at the end of the season.

That was at Chelsea where he finished 3rd. When everyone thought Chelsea will challenge for the title. This season he had a full season but knew in February he is getting sacked.

I don't care, to be honest. If he is happy with the structure here then he could be around longer, anything else is just a guess. There's other reasons why he left both Dortmund and PSG that weren't 'throwing his toys out of the pram'.

 

[romufc]

Who knows if they would have got a trophy. Tuchel has won the champions league after all and has won different leagues, something Ten Hag hasnt yet.

Well Ineos claim they want to implement a similar structure, albeit I will admit things arent looking rosy so far with how they are treating this manager business.

So would you say we should hire Di Matteo? Cause he has won a CL in similar circumstances?

 

[pocco]

So would you say we should hire Di Matteo? Cause he has won a CL in similar circumstances?

Do you think Di Matteo is as good a coach as Tuchel?

 

[romufc]

I don't care, to be honest. If he is happy with the structure here then he could be around longer, anything else is just a guess. There's other reasons why he left both Dortmund and PSG that weren't 'throwing his toys out of the pram'.

SO why did he leave Bayern?

 

[romufc]

Do you think Di Matteo is as good a coach as Tuchel?

No I dont, but you only have one argument... "He's won a CL"

The bottom line facts are... he struggles to win things when he gets a full season. There is evidence from multiple clubs, Dortmund, Mainz, PSG, Bayern, Chelsea.

Maybe if we start the season and things dont work out with ETH, Tuchel might be the best manager to rescue us, because thats all he is good at, rescue a season then leave.

 

[pocco]

SO why did he leave Bayern?

Did he throw his toys out of the pram? I thought he got sacked due to results. Correct me if I'm wrong. But it sounds like half of the board wanted him to stay, as did the players, and they tried to convince him to stay in the end.

 

[pocco]

No I dont, but you only have one argument... "He's won a CL"

The bottom line facts are... he struggles to win things when he gets a full season. There is evidence from multiple clubs, Dortmund, Mainz, PSG, Bayern, Chelsea.

Maybe if we start the season and things dont work out with ETH, Tuchel might be the best manager to rescue us, because thats all he is good at, rescue a season then leave.

What sort of logic is that? Struggles to win things when he gets a full season, but wins things when he comes in half way and has a bigger mountain to climb? How...I mean, I don't even know how to respond to this in all honesty.

Not to mention that it's bollocks to begin with. He won the title with PSG.

But there is plenty of evidence he is a good coach who can set title winning foundations. I believe that he had a better point average than Klopp at Dortmund. They scored more goals under Tuchel than any other season in their history in 15/16 (including under Klopp), had an average possession in 15/16 of 61%, a big improvement over the number Klopp put up, and achieved 78 points, the second highest in their club history apparently, and would have won them the title in 49 out of the 52 previous seasons. Even after the following 'poor season' where he was sacked at Dortmund after finishing 3rd with only 1 trophy, he had a win % of 62.96%.

 

[romufc]

What sort of logic is that? Struggles to win things when he gets a full season, but wins things when he comes in half way and has a bigger mountain to climb? How...I mean, I don't even know how to respond to this in all honesty.

Its basic logic.. a team starts a season with a manager, manager gets sacked.. he comes and solidifies the team and does well, maybe win something.

Give him his signings, pre season, he cant hack it.

At PSG 2nd full season... sacked after being 3rd in November
At Chelsea Sacked after being 6th
At Bayern sacked after giving up on title.

 

[romufc]

Did he throw his toys out of the pram? I thought he got sacked due to results. Correct me if I'm wrong. But it sounds like half of the board wanted him to stay, as did the players, and they tried to convince him to stay in the end.

They sacked him for results, then went on a managerial hunt, realised oooh there are no good managers, no one wants to manage them so lets just try keep Tuchel. DOnt act as if he was 1st choice.

ITs like if Ten Hag got sacked... 4 managers said no and we went back to Ten Hag saying... 4 managers rejected us, any chance you want to stay on?

 

[pocco]

They sacked him for results, then went on a managerial hunt, realised oooh there are no good managers, no one wants to manage them so lets just try keep Tuchel. DOnt act as if he was 1st choice.

ITs like if Ten Hag got sacked... 4 managers said no and we went back to Ten Hag saying... 4 managers rejected us, any chance you want to stay on?

Did I say he was first choice, or just that they tried to convince him to stay?

No good managers, what about Ten Hag?

 

[pocco]

Its basic logic.. a team starts a season with a manager, manager gets sacked.. he comes and solidifies the team and does well, maybe win something.

Give him his signings, pre season, he cant hack it.

At PSG 2nd full season... sacked after being 3rd in November
At Chelsea Sacked after being 6th
At Bayern sacked after giving up on title.

Give him less, and he does better. Give him more, he does worse. Got it, excellent logic. He'd be climbing a mountain anyway here after this season, so all good!

Your man Ten Hag should have been sacked long ago pal, so I don't see why you are getting so hung up on it. Fact is he has proven he can win league titles and the CL. That's all that matters. ETH would have been shot out of a cannon long ago at Bayern, PSG or Chelsea with these performances. Klopp got Mainz relegated and couldn't get them promoted, what did that mean in the end?

 

[romufc]

No good managers, what about Ten Hag?

Actually they did try speak to him, reports say he refused as he was committed to United. I dont know Ten Hag personally to say its a fact, basing it on reports.

Give him less, and he does better. Give him more, he does worse. Got it, excellent logic. He'd be climbing a mountain anyway here after this season, so all good!

Your man Ten Hag should have been sacked long ago pal, so I don't see why you are getting so hung up on it. Fact is he has proven he can win league titles and the CL. That's all that matters. ETH would have been shot out of a cannon long ago at Bayern, PSG or Chelsea with these performances. Klopp got Mainz relegated and couldn't get them promoted, what did that mean in the end?

Actually you are a bit mistaken, I have never said Ten Hag is amazing or is something special. I have just been arguing against hiring Tuchel. You actually summed it up really well, give him more and he does worse, its actually a fact. Finally you hit the nail on the head.

Dortmund - Spent 141m sacked.
Chelsea - Spent 250m Sacked
Bayern - Spent 187m sacked

When he comes in 1/2 way through a season he can wins CL at Chelsea, and wins Bayern the league.

 

[Lyng]

So would you say we should hire Di Matteo? Cause he has won a CL in similar circumstances?

Let just throw all context out then
By your logic Ten Hag will never win the Prem because he hasn't after two seasons and millions spent.

 

[romufc]

Let just throw all context out then
By your logic Ten Hag will never win the Prem because he hasn't after two seasons and millions spent.

Whats the context?

Tuchel took charge 1/2 way through. Di Mattero took charge 1/2 way through. Both won the CL.

There is actually a very high possibility that Teg Hag doesnt win the PL, I agree with you. Thats why I would only give him the chance to show he can challenge. If he cant in the next 4 months then sack him.

 

[VP89]

And? Leonardo is a mad man.

Well he fell away somewhat in the league so to absolve him of blame is quite ridiculous.

 

[Lyng]

Well he fell away somewhat in the league so to absolve him of blame is quite ridiculous.

They lost 4 out of 17 and where 4 points behind Lyon in who where second. They topped their group in the Champions league. After winning back to back leagues and reaching the final in the champions league.

 

[VP89]

They lost 4 out of 17 and where 4 points behind Lyon in who where second. They topped their group in the Champions league. After winning back to back leagues and reaching the final in the champions league.

You're talking broadly about the French league here which is a one horse league.

The last time he truly impressed with 4 at the back was Dortmund, but I will certainly grant his PSG champions league form too.

However he's flopped at Bayern so the jury is still out on his chops to implement that system.

 

[DSG]

You can swear all you like... Tuchel didn't win the CL in his full season, he took over and made them defensively solid, new manager bounce. Di Matteo has done the same feat.

You don’t rate Tuchel, I do. My one question mark is the berating of his players during matches on the sideline. I would appreciate someone who has a bit softer touch.

 

[pocco]

Actually they did try speak to him, reports say he refused as he was committed to United. I dont know Ten Hag personally to say its a fact, basing it on reports.



Actually you are a bit mistaken, I have never said Ten Hag is amazing or is something special. I have just been arguing against hiring Tuchel. You actually summed it up really well, give him more and he does worse, its actually a fact. Finally you hit the nail on the head.

Dortmund - Spent 141m sacked.
Chelsea - Spent 250m Sacked
Bayern - Spent 187m sacked

When he comes in 1/2 way through a season he can wins CL at Chelsea, and wins Bayern the league.

Re your first point, I saw tweets to the contrary, which made it sound like they had decided against it. It's anybodies guess, but ETH has probably known for a while that he isn't safe. Around 20th April was when they started reviewing things around him and his training, asked him to change his football etc. He'd have to be bloody daft to think he's safe and turn Bayern away, flat out.

Re point 2, it's not a fact. He won the league at PSG in his first full season. He won the German Cup in his last season at Dortmund. Probably more trophies won along the way, I can't be bothered looking. Like I said though, In 15/16 he was unlucky not to win the league, achieving a points total that wins them the league practically any other season. You're willing to cling to the finest of obscure details to defend ETH, yet will not even acknowledge any of this.

Anyway, you do you. Keep telling everyone that Tuchel can only win things if he has only half a season, a team in disarray etc. Absolutely nobody is buying it, because there is zero logic to it.

 

[VP89]

Anyway, you do you. Keep telling everyone that Tuchel can only win things if he has only half a season, a team in disarray etc. Absolutely nobody is buying it, because there is zero logic to it.

Well, he starts well and then implodes. Fell away at Chelsea and at PSG before being sacked and then Bayern trophyless in just year two.