The Trump Presidency | Biden Inaugurated

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One of the problems which lends credence to Trump's fake news narrative, is that the commercialization of the news has severely damaged its credibility. Whenever news is framed with personality or theater (almost every US news channel), its truth content and legitimacy becomes weakened.

Legitimate news is simply a statement of fact without political ideology. The personalities which are used to sell the news opens the door for hyperbole and inaccurate content. This is the chief problem with all mainstream news, with a few notable exceptions.

tl;dr: News should never be a show, and should never possess theatrical elements.
 
I know we get the stereotype that Americans (or rather, the ones that voted for Trump) are thick as pigshit but I really don't understand how he gets away with the fake news bullshit.

I mean yeah, the MSM isn't unbiased and they're all pretty shite but if the POTUS/most important man in the world goes on record saying that anything bad against him or anything that proves him wrong is a lie and it sticks? How the feck does he keep doing it?
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
One of the problems which lends credence to Trump's fake news narrative, is that the commercialization of the news has severely damaged its credibility. Whenever news is framed with personality or theater (almost every US news channel), its truth content and legitimacy becomes weakened.

Legitimate news is simply a statement of fact without political ideology. The personalities which are used to sell the news opens the door for hyperbole and inaccurate content. This is the chief problem with all mainstream news, with a few notable exceptions.

tl;dr: News should never be a show, and should never possess theatrical elements.
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agreed and its why BBC is still so revered. I love the preciseness of their integrity, down to how minimalist their website and news studio's still are.
 
matherto said:
I know we get the stereotype that Americans (or rather, the ones that voted for Trump) are thick as pigshit but I really don't understand how he gets away with the fake news bullshit.
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Well American news in general is a commercial enterprise. That's true in Europe as well, but often you'll find most European countries have a state subsidized broadcaster. Profit should never be a motive when reporting fact. When it is a motive, fact becomes less central to the broadcast with entertainment taking up a role which is at least as significant. That's true of right and left wing broadcasters in the States. It's all too easy to dismiss fact if you can pick apart the way its framed. The bigger the profit motive, the more obvious the frame, the more vulnerable the content.

Even the BBC has issues, but in general, it's head and shoulders above anything the States can offer. That's due to strict editorial guidelines which demand that the state broadcaster isn't seen to favour any particular side. When it does favour a side, inadvertently or otherwise, its rightly lampooned and ridiculed.

When Trump says fake news, he actually has a point. Not that the facts are fake, but that the platform on which they're espoused is so hollow as to appear fake. If you can characterize its presentation as biased (which, in truth, it is), then you can dismiss the fact. And that, as far as I can see, is a massive problem.
 
Cmon MG, fact checker isn't fake news. What fecking leg can Trump stand on when all he does is lie.

He's a bent, corrupt politician. The fact he's President tells you everything you need to know about America right now.
 
RedSky said:
Cmon MG, fact checker isn't fake news. What fecking leg can Trump stand on when all he does is lie.

He's a bent, corrupt politician. The fact he's President tells you everything you need to know about America right now.
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I agree. But the problem is that the US news system is partisan. A left wing establishment, a right wing establishment. There isn't a BBC in the States. Well, there is, but it's more or less irrelevant.

It falls upon the left wing to hold the right wing accountable. But the left wing is by definition biased against the right wing. This is the chief problem. Trump can say "fake news" whenever a liberal establishment takes him to task and his supporters will believe it. Partly because the presentation of fact is obscured by motive. It's the same with Fox News, Breitbart, and whatever other right wing organizations exist. What they report is met with a dismissive glance because everyone knows their blatant bias.

Take the Guardian as an example. When they reported on the Snowden affair, most of the other major news companies in England dismissed it as a liberal crusade. I disagreed at the time, but I could see why they'd dismiss it as such. The Graun has a target audience of liberal consumers and it panders to them. Just as the Mail panders to the right. Target audience plus profit motive equals lack of credibility amongst the opposing side.

Trump is just lumping all dissenting voices into the same category, but the system allows him to do it because of the way it functions. It's just no one expected him to have the gall to use such a fascist tactic, and unfortunately, amongst his base, it's working.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
When Trump says fake news, he actually has a point. Not that the facts are fake, but that the platform on which they're espoused is so hollow as to appear fake. If you can characterize its presentation as biased (which, in truth, it is), then you can dismiss the fact. And that, as far as I can see, is a massive problem.
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Two issues with this: Bias is never as bad as outright lies or alternative facts. And your explanation should also apply to orgs like Fox News, Breitbart, or TheBlaze — all of which aren't labeled as fake news by Trump.
 
SaintTresano said:
Two issues with this: Bias is never as bad as outright lies or alternative facts. And your explanation should also apply to orgs like Fox News, Breitbart, or TheBlaze — all of which aren't labeled as fake news by Trump.
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Bias in reporting fact is alternative fact. Any historian will tell you that. I do include Fox and Breitbart and all other right wing establishments in my argument, but I can see why Trump wouldn't categorize them as fake news. They're working with him, not against him.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Bias in reporting fact is alternative fact. Any historian will tell you that. I do include Fox and Breitbart and all other right wing establishments in my argument, but I can see why Trump wouldn't categorize them as fake news. They're working with him, not against him.
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No need for historians. Alternative facts were born out of Conway's lies, not bias, about the inauguration crowd. And if you see the fake news characteristic in the right wing news, and acknowledge that Trump doesn't categorize them as such, don't you see the problem with Trump doing so? He literally said that any negative reporting on him is fake news. That's outright despicable no matter how lightly anyone tries to paint it.
 
SaintTresano said:
No need for historians. Alternative facts were born out of Conway's lies, not bias, about the inauguration crowd. And if you see the fake news characteristic in the right wing news, and acknowledge that Trump doesn't categorize them as such, don't you see the problem with Trump doing so? He literally said that any negative reporting on him is fake news. That's outright despicable no matter how lightly anyone tries to paint it.
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It's a classic right wing propaganda tactic. The far left has used it as well, of course. Attack the person, dismiss the fact. That's all Trump is doing.

Of course I see the problem, that's my entire argument. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, just that the problem is more widespread than any single politician. It's the failure of a system, and Trump is taking advantage of it.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
It's a classic right wing propaganda tactic. The far left has used it as well, of course. Attack the person, dismiss the fact. That's all Trump is doing.

Of course I see the problem, that's my entire argument. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, just that the problem is more widespread than any single politician. It's the failure of a system, and Trump is taking advantage of it.
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Ok I see what you're saying there. But who can you compare Trump to in this regard since you say many politicians are doing it?
 
I personally think Trump is taking this all to a new level, one never seen before. I've certainly never known anyone to lie as much as Trump, and he's President. I've known some story tellers in my life, and have a few friends who like to spin yarns, but nothing on the level that Trump does, and the fact he gets so angry when called out on it, and often doubles down too. It's truly despicable and I just wish for the day he's called out on it.

There are a myriad of reasons why this is unacceptable behaviour, but he's supposed to be the most powerful man in the world and he lies so easily. What kind of message does that send to the Children of the USA? Or even the world? I had to explain it to my 10 year old son who asked me why Trump lies so much and how can nobody do anything about it. I feel that's a very pertinent point that hasn't been raised yet. He's supposed to be a fecking role model, the leader of the free world, an inspiration and a leader, not a fecking liar. Any other line of work and he would be fecked, and it would be tantamount to career suicide.
 
SaintTresano said:
Ok I see what you're saying there. But who can you compare Trump to in this regard since you say many politicians are doing it?
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Trump is doing it on a larger and more transparent scale than the rest. It's incredible how brazen he's being, in all honesty. Still, there are parallels with many politicians across the world. Farage has attacked many outlets as being left wing or liberal, including the BBC. It's the same tactic at play. The facts are uncomfortable or damaging, so instead of just directly refuting the fact, they also refute the intention behind its presentation.

I'd say that pretty much every politician in the world does this to a certain degree, it's just Trump is bolder than the rest and the right wing media establishment is all too happy to support him.
 
langster said:
I personally think Trump is taking this all to a new level, one never seen before. I've certainly never known anyone to lie as much as Trump, and he's President. I've known some story tellers in my life, and have a few friends who like to spin yarns, but nothing on the level that Trump does, and the fact he gets so angry when called out on it, and often doubles down too. It's truly despicable and I just wish for the day he's called out on it.

There are a myriad of reasons why this is unacceptable behaviour, but he's supposed to be the most powerful man in the world and he lies so easily. What kind of message does that send to the Children of the USA? Or even the world? I had to explain it to my 10 year old son who asked me why Trump lies so much and how can nobody do anything about it. I feel that's a very pertinent point that hasn't been raised yet. He's supposed to be a fecking role model, the leader of the free world, an inspiration and a leader, not a fecking liar. Any other line of work and he would be fecked, and it would be tantamount to career suicide.
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In short, it's fecked. Willfully misleading the people is enough to topple most heads of state. With Trump, it just empowers his base. The United States is so fractured at the moment. Think of it in these terms. The difference between left and right in the States at present consists of climate change, gun control, religious fundamentalism, blatant racism, sexism, health care, education, and the list just goes on. Where are people supposed to find common ground? The gap is just far too wide. In the UK, the gap is non existent by comparison.

The situation in the US seems irreparable to me. Both sides are far too entrenched and I can't see it ending well. The problem with Trump is that he's incredibly dangerous. He's pushing a volatile political situation to the brink. And he's doing it all for political gain. He might be the worst politician I've ever seen. Even Bush had a bit of decorum and responsibility about him, Trump has no ties to anything other than himself. Does anyone honestly believe that he feels the burden of office? He might in a competitive sense, but never in a moral sense. The man has no morals.

What were we to expect of an unapologetic capitalist?
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
In short, it's fecked. Willfully misleading the people is enough to topple most heads of state. With Trump, it just empowers his base. The United States is so fractured at the moment. Think of it in these terms. The difference between left and right in the States at present consists of climate change, gun control, religious fundamentalism, blatant racism, sexism, health care, education, and the list just goes on. Where are people supposed to find common ground? The gap is just far too wide. In the UK, the gap is non existent by comparison.

The situation in the US seems irreparable to me. Both sides are far too entrenched and I can't see it ending well. The problem with Trump is that he's incredibly dangerous. He's pushing a volatile political situation to the brink. And he's doing it all for political gain. He might be the worst politician I've ever seen. Even Bush had a bit of decorum and responsibility about him, Trump has no ties to anything other than himself. Does anyone honestly believe that he feels the burden of office? He might in a competitive sense, but never in a moral sense. The man has no morals.

What were we to expect of an unapologetic capitalist?
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Nice post, I agree entirely. He's abhorrent, I honestly don't think he knows how much damage he is/can cause and what's even worse, I honestly don't think he cares either. It's all a game to him, a show of power. None of us can ever relate to the kind of life he has led, and all through it he has fecked people over. His history of lies and deceit is akin to that of a life long criminal. In his wake he's left ripped off contractors, small business owners, battered and beaten wives, bankruptcies and non payments, the list is endless. He's a deluded cnut, and it seems nobody has ever stood up to him. What makes him even worse is he's a nasty prick too, and has a really malicious streak who like to completely humiliate and destroy anyone who does anything to upset him. That's why I can't see this ending well at all, and I need not remind everyone, but this insecure fruitloop has the nuclear codes.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Trump is doing it on a larger and more transparent scale than the rest. It's incredible how brazen he's being, in all honesty. Still, there are parallels with many politicians across the world. Farage has attacked many outlets as being left wing or liberal, including the BBC. It's the same tactic at play. The facts are uncomfortable or damaging, so instead of just directly refuting the fact, they also refute the intention behind its presentation.

I'd say that pretty much every politician in the world does this to a certain degree, it's just Trump is bolder than the rest and the right wing media establishment is all too happy to support him.
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May and her BrExit cabinet members are doing a similar job right now pandering to the right wing British media and conveniently forgetting that most were previously remain or leave campaign promises. Its as though the entire remain agenda is being airbrushed from history and those who bring it up are viciously doubled down upon.
 
sammsky1 said:
May and her BrExit cabinet members are doing a similar job right now pandering to the right wing British media and conveniently forgetting that most were previously remain or leave campaign promises. Its as though the entire remain agenda is being airbrushed from history and those who bring it up are viciously doubled down upon.
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As much as I dislike the Tory government, they're socialists compared to Trump. Labour's official position is trigger article 50, they just disagree in the ways to go about it. Both major parties campaigned to remain.

There are divides, but the divides just aren't anywhere near as big. One of the few benefits of having a politically neutral head of state (and I despise monarchy, but truth be told, it has some advantages).
 
langster said:
Nice post, I agree entirely. He's abhorrent, I honestly don't think he knows how much damage he is/can cause and what's even worse, I honestly don't think he cares either. It's all a game to him, a show of power. None of us can ever relate to the kind of life he has led, and all through it he has fecked people over. His history of lies and deceit is akin to that of a life long criminal. In his wake he's left ripped off contractors, small business owners, battered and beaten wives, bankruptcies and non payments, the list is endless. He's a deluded cnut, and it seems nobody has ever stood up to him. What makes him even worse is he's a nasty prick too, and has a really malicious streak who like to completely humiliate and destroy anyone who does anything to upset him. That's why I can't see this ending well at all, and I need not remind everyone, but this insecure fruitloop has the nuclear codes.
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As I wrote before, you're not seeing it from tRump's point of view which is that 'the system is corrupt' and that he was given mandate by his 47% to change it all.

He sees that as moral legitimacy for dismantling the infected branches and policies of Government to be replaced by his own virtuous dictatorship.

He believes he is on a moral crusade to right the wrongs of the corrupt political elite who want him gone, hence everything they say will have an agenda and so must be fake news.

He showed his 47% who he was in the primaries and election battle and they loved him for it.

He is the only person in America who is virtuous and capable. It makes perfect sense to him.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
As much as I dislike the Tory government, they're socialists compared to Trump. Labour's official position is trigger article 50, they just disagree in the ways to go about it. Both major parties campaigned to remain.

There are divides, but the divides just aren't anywhere near as big. One of the few benefits of having a politically neutral head of state (and I despise monarchy, but truth be told, it has some advantages).
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My point is regarding media bias and fake news. In the current UK context the entire remain movement has suddenly become 'fake news' despite 95% of MP's previously backing it..

My admiration for David Cameron dramatically increased after he resigned on ideological principle.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Well American news in general is a commercial enterprise. That's true in Europe as well, but often you'll find most European countries have a state subsidized broadcaster. Profit should never be a motive when reporting fact. When it is a motive, fact becomes less central to the broadcast with entertainment taking up a role which is at least as significant. That's true of right and left wing broadcasters in the States. It's all too easy to dismiss fact if you can pick apart the way its framed. The bigger the profit motive, the more obvious the frame, the more vulnerable the content.

Even the BBC has issues, but in general, it's head and shoulders above anything the States can offer. That's due to strict editorial guidelines which demand that the state broadcaster isn't seen to favour any particular side. When it does favour a side, inadvertently or otherwise, its rightly lampooned and ridiculed.

When Trump says fake news, he actually has a point. Not that the facts are fake, but that the platform on which they're espoused is so hollow as to appear fake. If you can characterize its presentation as biased (which, in truth, it is), then you can dismiss the fact. And that, as far as I can see, is a massive problem.
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BTW - thought this was an excellent post getting to the nub of a very intricate subject.
 
You're right @sammsky1 I am not looking at it from Trump's point of view, mainly because I'm sane (even though I've had brain surgery) and I have a conscience, and feel empathy and sympathy, also because I would want to use the power he holds to make everyone's lives better, especially the poor and needy and hard working folks that need it most. For those reasons, I will never be able to agree with Trump, however I completely see where he is coming from, It's no different than a spoiled child.
 
langster said:
You're right @sammsky1 I am not looking at it from Trump's point of view, mainly because I'm sane (even though I've had brain surgery) and I have a conscience, and feel empathy and sympathy, also because I would want to use the power he holds to make everyone's lives better, especially the poor and needy and hard working folks that need it most. For those reasons, I will never be able to agree with Trump, however I completely see where he is coming from, It's no different than a spoiled child.
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Agreed! I can't bring myself to agree with anything he'll ever do and would never work with him on anything.

But to defeat him, we have to see the world through his eyes (as best as we can) and put landmines in place which we hope will blast him!
 
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sammsky1 said:
Agreed! I can't bring myself to agree with anything he'll ever do and would never work with him on anything.

But to depart him, we have to see the world through his eyes (as best as we can) and put landmines in place which we hope will blast him!
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Yup, I completely agree. Thankfully the press have started to all work together and play him the right way, they deserve praise and credit this week, which is a positive step forward. Long may it continue. They are so important in the fight to bring the tyrant down.
 
sammsky1 said:
My point is regarding media bias and fake news. In the current UK context the entire remain movement has suddenly become 'fake news' despite 95% of MP's previously backing it..

My admiration for David Cameron dramatically increased after he resigned on ideological principle.
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The thing about the Remain camp is that nearly all MPs of the major political parties are now tied to Brexit. Not because they wanted it originally, but because constitutionally they have to accept the referendum. There isn't much of an incentive to look backwards when heads of both major parties have decreed that article 50 should be triggered. Now it's about how to trigger it.

The fake news, as we all know, consisted of headlines about millions of pounds for the NHS, controls over border issues, etc. None of that is possible because Brexit just means a symbolic exit from the EU. The UK still remains open to the free movement of labour (bye bye border controls), because that is a prerequisite to trading in a globally connected world. Nothing much changes. In theory, I suppose, the UK should be free from certain EU bureaucracy, but reformation probably would have been a better principal.

I'm not sure Cameron resigned for any reason other than he had made his own position untenable. What started as a rebellion from the back benches of the Tory party led to a referendum in what Cameron calculated to be a politically expedient way of consolidating power in his own party. He lost the vote, which means he had to lose his office. Couldn't have stayed on if he wanted to.

But now we're derailing the thread a bit.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
In short, it's fecked. Willfully misleading the people is enough to topple most heads of state. With Trump, it just empowers his base. The United States is so fractured at the moment. Think of it in these terms. The difference between left and right in the States at present consists of climate change, gun control, religious fundamentalism, blatant racism, sexism, health care, education, and the list just goes on. Where are people supposed to find common ground? The gap is just far too wide. In the UK, the gap is non existent by comparison.

The situation in the US seems irreparable to me. Both sides are far too entrenched and I can't see it ending well. The problem with Trump is that he's incredibly dangerous. He's pushing a volatile political situation to the brink. And he's doing it all for political gain. He might be the worst politician I've ever seen. Even Bush had a bit of decorum and responsibility about him, Trump has no ties to anything other than himself. Does anyone honestly believe that he feels the burden of office? He might in a competitive sense, but never in a moral sense. The man has no morals.

What were we to expect of an unapologetic capitalist?
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It's because of that quality that Republican voters awarded him their candidacy and eventually the Presidency.

Democrats need to purge their ranks and find a candidate who is not only capable but also has the Smarts to make people belive in the virtuous capacity of public service... Except it's too soon again for a 'hope' 2.0 which won't cut it.
 
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Mciahel Goodman said:
I agree. But the problem is that the US news system is partisan. A left wing establishment, a right wing establishment. There isn't a BBC in the States. Well, there is, but it's more or less irrelevant.

It falls upon the left wing to hold the right wing accountable. But the left wing is by definition biased against the right wing. This is the chief problem. Trump can say "fake news" whenever a liberal establishment takes him to task and his supporters will believe it. Partly because the presentation of fact is obscured by motive. It's the same with Fox News, Breitbart, and whatever other right wing organizations exist. What they report is met with a dismissive glance because everyone knows their blatant bias.

Take the Guardian as an example. When they reported on the Snowden affair, most of the other major news companies in England dismissed it as a liberal crusade. I disagreed at the time, but I could see why they'd dismiss it as such. The Graun has a target audience of liberal consumers and it panders to them. Just as the Mail panders to the right. Target audience plus profit motive equals lack of credibility amongst the opposing side.

Trump is just lumping all dissenting voices into the same category, but the system allows him to do it because of the way it functions. It's just no one expected him to have the gall to use such a fascist tactic, and unfortunately, amongst his base, it's working.
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NPR is as neutral as they come, and far from irrelevant. Your point isn't totally invalid, but there is a place for opinionated journalism. Think of Edward Morrow calling bullshit on McCarthy's witch-hunt... I don't think the solution in the times we live in now is for news organizations to dispassionately ride the fence while reporting on Trump's actions. It's actually an amazing time for journalism in the US.
 
adexkola said:
NPR is as neutral as they come, and far from irrelevant. Your point isn't totally invalid, but there is a place for opinionated journalism. Think of Edward Morrow calling bullshit on McCarthy's witch-hunt... I don't think the solution in the times we live in now is for news organizations to dispassionately ride the fence while reporting on Trump's actions. It's actually an amazing time for journalism in the US.
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NPR is a good point but its audience is primarily liberal and white middle class.

As for Morrow and opinionated journalism, I see your point. I would counter it just by saying that McCarthy was eventually despised even within Republican ranks. He also manufactured a movement whereas I think Trump is actively piggybacking on extant discontent. What I mean is that the divide in the US is quite enormous and opinionated journalism from either side only preaches to the already converted. Having said that, I'm not advocating a retreat from liberal outlets, primarily because I think in the US system you have to fight to win. If the left takes the moral high ground and reports dispassionately, the right will obliterate it. My overarching point is really just a diagnosis of the system in its current form. That is, 'fake news' works as a tool of propaganda because it isn't entirely false once you distinguish the inherent left/right bias of the major American news outlets. The facts are legitimate, but the platform is partisan which means Trump can paint the facts as partisan.
 
Trump's downfall won't come from liberal media, it'll come when the right finally considers him to be too much of a liability and the likes of Fox start to abandon him. I'm not sure when (or if) that happens.

Also, the economy is always the biggest issue. Let's see where the US is in 2018.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
One of the problems which lends credence to Trump's fake news narrative, is that the commercialization of the news has severely damaged its credibility. Whenever news is framed with personality or theater (almost every US news channel), its truth content and legitimacy becomes weakened.

Legitimate news is simply a statement of fact without political ideology. The personalities which are used to sell the news opens the door for hyperbole and inaccurate content. This is the chief problem with all mainstream news, with a few notable exceptions.

tl;dr: News should never be a show, and should never possess theatrical elements.
Click to expand...

I'd agree that news, both televised and in paper has become increasingly politicized and especially in the US where you have Fox News and MSNBC sitting in each of their ideological camp and fling shit back and forth.

The thing is though, you don't really need to have any hidden agenda to paint a bad picture of Trump though, he manages that fine all by himself
 
Bernie tells it as it is:

“We have a president who is delusional in many respects, a pathological liar,” Sanders said.

“Those are strong words,” moderator Chuck Todd interjected while asking Sanders whether he can work with a liar.

“It makes life very difficult. It is very harsh, but I think that’s the truth,” Sanders replied. “When somebody goes before you and says that 3 to 5 million people voted illegally … nobody believes that. There is not a scintilla of evidence to believe that, what would you call that remark? It’s a lie. It’s a delusion.”
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Video: http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-pre...president-is-a-pathological-liar-875536451517
 
africanspur said:
Is it just me or does Trump tend to steer clear of Bernie? I can't remember instances where he's attacked him in the way he's attacked so many others, despite Bernie laying into him quite often.

May have slipped my attention though admittedly.
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His only interest in Sanders, that I recall, was him playing up the 'stole the nomination' thing in order to de-legitimise Clinton. Other than that, Sanders has been largely irrelevant to him.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
His only interest in Sanders, that I recall, was him playing up the 'stole the nomination' thing in order to de-legitimise Clinton. Other than that, Sanders is largely irrelevant to him.
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That is true but he's a very thin skinned man, who's gone after politicians, media & celebrities :wenger: who've said less than Sanders and over a shorter period of time.
 
Turns out Murdoch was in the room when Gove was interviewing Trump.

Also Trump gave the only 2 questions at his press conference with Abe to Murdoch owned outlets.
 
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