Ok, so you're saying you won't be worried until they go full blown fascist. If everyone had your approach, there would never be any resistance to fascism wherever or whenever it starts to build.
The Trump Presidency | Biden Inaugurated
- Thread starter Raoul
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I'm not talking about predicting the future, i'm saying its entirely plausible that what we are seeing is the result of an administration that doesn't have all its people in place and is being forced to improvise using WH people.
Trump already covertly tries to do this through his constant attacks on anyone who dare criticise him on Twitter. If people act complacent, with the belief the regime will ease off, clamping down on dissent will become easier and easier for Trump.
Well anyone can label a policy they don't like as fascistic or 'heading towards' fascism, as a lazy, pejorative device. I need something a bit more tangible.
No he doesn't. He moans about the media on Twitter.
Whatever, replace 'predictions' with 'analysis', same thing. I think given your record on Trump a little humility is called for before presenting yourself as the voice of reason and smugly claiming everybody else is panicking, particularly on a page of the forum where a fellow member has stated he may be affected by this to the extent where he'll be separated from his family for significant amounts of time.
I won't be coming back anyway for the next 90-120 days, I graduate this semester or in the summer classes and I will move permanently asap now.
I know, as you said, you need to see a fully enacted fascist state before you're worried about fascism.
That's the point where you would accept that they are heading towards an authoritarian and dangerous future? Yikes, it'd be a bit late to recognise it at that stage.
This guy at least.
And thus aims to spread distrust and anger against those who dare criticise him. It's been one of his hallmarks - Trump doesn't just disagree with those who criticise him, he actively attacks them and aims to make their lives miserable. See his constant insults against his primary opponents, his threats to lock up Hilary and his bringing out the Bill Clinton accusers, his attack of Streep on Twitter, his attack of a prominent trade union figure who criticised him, and his constant, unending criticism of media figures who dare point out facts.
I'd personally prefer that we stop him before it actually becomes Soviet/Putinist Russia
Sure, otherwise you can just lazily label something as fascistic because you don't like it. Take Russia for example. No one would label it full blown fascism and yet it has demonstrated many fascistic tendencies in terms of the rule of law, media freedoms, gay rights etc. That's the sort of direction things would have to go in.
How about the fact we've got an actual fascist involved in enacting policy, then? As Mike says, if you're only worried about fascism when you've got a full on fascist regime...well, how are you ever going to prevent such a regime?
And that's just since the campaign started. He's been doing the same thing for decades with journalists.
@Raoul
http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm
Can you argue that there are any of the 14 points here that do not, in any way, apply to Trump?
http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm
Can you argue that there are any of the 14 points here that do not, in any way, apply to Trump?
I don't consider Bannon a fascist. He is basically an ethno-centric economic nationalist.
Yep, it has to be noted that this is him doing all this a week into his presidential tenure. If he stays in then we've got at least four years of this ahead. I admire Raoul's calmness but the fact is if people don't want this regime to gradually become worse and worse then they're going to have to stand up and disrupt the nation as much as possible through strikes, protests etc.
Some of these apply to Trump, but you'd be hard pressed to find any right of center politician in the US or elsewhere who is free of all these traits. That doesn't make him a fascist though.
You're trying to play with definitions now. Even if you don't consider Bannon to be an actual, full-on fascist, if you're admitting he's an ethnic nationalist then we're not particularly far off.
It's like Irwin all over again.
I'm sure its not far off if you really want it to be not far off. But in reality they are two completely different ideologies.
The nature of the American obsession with militaristic dominance means some of these apply to every US President, but I'd feel comfortable in saying under Obama there was no rampant sexism, controlled mass media, disdain for intellectuals and the arts, or fraudulent elections.
Again, is there any point there which doesn't apply to Trump in any way whatsoever?
We used to call what white supremacist in my day.
I know people on the Communist left (yes actual communists) who view anything from moderate to right of center as white supremacy. It all depends on where your starting point is.
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Do you believe Bannon is an ethnic nationalist, with a general belief that white people are superior to those of other races? Bearing in mind he has been alleged to say in the past he didn't want his children to go to school with Jewish people, and his website have regularly targeted people of other ethnicities?
I bet the author is not an academic or serious journalist. That is a hell of a shitty list to describe fascism.
Breaking News: Intercontinental nuclear cruise missiles are in-flight and heading to the US.
Raoul: Woah, hang on guys, let's not panic. Let's wait to see if they explode first.
Raoul: Woah, hang on guys, let's not panic. Let's wait to see if they explode first.
Trump has been in office for 8 days. Where is the rampant sexism, controlled media, disdain for intellectuals etc during that time ? All he has done is moan on Twitter, which isn't remotely credible as evidence of anything.
It's been floating around a lot which was why I referred to it, and it's probably not by any means perfect, but a lot of it seems reasonable as a starting point, and it's a general list that has apparently been referred to in the past in casual discussion, being something that existed long before Trump's campaign.
In fairness, panicking hysterically is the best route to misdiagnosing the situation.
There's no universal definition. Yours is a decent list, but there are other more comprehensive ones out there.
Curtailing abortion funding,
Branding all criticism FAKE NEWS! IT'S FAKE NEWS FOLKS!
Banning government scientists and researchers from talking to the media and public.
Hell of a start for the first week.
Horrible start, but definitely not fascism.
The rampant sexism was evident during the campaign in which Trump bragged about being able to sexually assault women if he wished without repercussions. The character of the person before taking office should be considered.
The controlled media is a wish of Trump's: again, he regularly insults news outlets who question him and is giving more power to Bannon because Bannon runs an outlet which is incredibly favourable to him. When Trump 'moans' on Twitter he is shaping public opinion, and encouraging his fervent supporters to take what he says at face value. There are plenty of people out there who take his word as the truth, and thus will not question him when he says a certain number of illegals voted, or that the NYT or CNN is fake news.
The disdain for intellectuals comes from his climate change beliefs and planned actions, which contradict the vast scientific opinion that climate change is perhaps the most serious global issue the world faces right now.
You're trying to twist the goalposts here by ignoring the pre-government Trump, but it's still the same person enacting what he said he would: again, we're not saying we're fully at this stage yet but some very worrying, advancing signs and actions are there.
To be fair, point 1 is the work of the republican party leadership/Pence and point 2 has been relevant since his presidential campaign started and is nothing new.
Personally I'll accept we're heading towards a nuclear holocaust when mutants are eating my children.
We're talking about his Presidency. The guy obviously bloviated endlessly to impress whoever was in front of him during the campaign. I can't take half of anything he says seriously since he lies like he's telling the truth. In either case, certainly not fascism.
Common guys, leave Raoul be. He is always incredibly positive which is a pretty good trait.
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