The Trump Presidency | Biden Inaugurated

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oneniltothearsenal said:
Don't underestimate the pure partisanship from either the Republicans or Democrats in the US. Reality is that the Democrats blame Trump 100% for the shutdown thus absolving themselves of any guilt. And the reverse for the Republicans, the shutdown is 100% the Democrats fault. Its simple, ask any of the Democrats why they don't feel empathy to compromise during the shutdown. Its clear the Democrats care more about not allowing Trump a win on the wall than they do the plight of any workers.
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A blackmailer demands $10,000. You can compromise and give him $5,000 that he has not earned.
Trump is doing this to shore up his base for the fight that is coming.
He is stoking racial fears and hate for something that will have no purpose.

We are talking billions ...for nothing.
 
Red Dreams said:
A blackmailer demands $10,000. You can compromise and give him $5,000 that he has not earned.
Trump is doing this to shore up his base for the fight that is coming.
He is stoking racial fears and hate for something that will have no purpose.

We are talking billions ...for nothing.
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Indeed. Compromise is part of governing and brinkmanship is part of negotiation. But the idiot in chief is doing it all for something that only he and his bunch of deplorables think is worth doing.

I do think it is looking increasingly like the adults have indeed left the room. One of these days, he is going to do something truly catastrophic- on a whim.
 
Red Dreams said:
A blackmailer demands $10,000. You can compromise and give him $5,000 that he has not earned.
Trump is doing this to shore up his base for the fight that is coming.
He is stoking racial fears and hate for something that will have no purpose.

We are talking billions ...for nothing.
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That's not what I'm talking about.

For example, I mean if the Democrats did something like demanding the green new deal + amendment to overturn Citizen's United and got the government back working in exchange for 5billion for the wall that would be a trade-off that I personally believe is worth it.

If they aren't more pro-active in fighting for issues people want they aren't going to get us anywhere. They keep allowing Trump to dictate all the terms, yes or no on the wall is still all based on Trump's framing. They need to start being more proactive not playing defensive the entire time.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
That's not what I'm talking about.

For example, I mean if the Democrats did something like demanding the green new deal + amendment to overturn Citizen's United and got the government back working in exchange for 5billion for the wall that would be a trade-off that I personally believe is worth it.

If they aren't more pro-active in fighting for issues people want they aren't going to get us anywhere. They keep allowing Trump to dictate all the terms, yes or no on the wall is still all based on Trump's framing. They need to start being more proactive not playing defensive the entire time.
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when you boil it down it is about giving a bribe to be able to govern.

A green deal or anything else the Democrats put forward must be measured on its own validity. Not a simple trade off. Trump and the Republicans need to be held accountable for their actions. I do not just mean elections. I mean for the aftermath.

The Democrats Will be playing defensive by giving validity to this unreasonable and empty demand.

Sufficient money has been included for border security. This is about nothing but his political survival.

It serves no one except him.
 
Red Dreams said:
when you boil it down it is about giving a bribe to be able to govern.

A green deal or anything else the Democrats put forward must be measured on its own validity. Not a simple trade off. Trump and the Republicans need to be held accountable for their actions. I do not just mean elections. I mean for the aftermath.

The Democrats Will be playing defensive by giving validity to this unreasonable and empty demand.

Sufficient money has been included for border security. This is about nothing but his political survival.

It serves no one except him.
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That's just not how American politics works. You have to force compromises to get things done. You have put things on the table that are more valuable than what the other party is putting up when the other party is vastly overvaluing one demand (Trump has heavily overvalued the wall, that is an advantage). For me green new deal + amendment to overturn Citizens United is a lot more valuable to the people of the US than simply 'not allowing funding for the wall'.

It also shifts the entire public debate to force Trump on the defensive. The Department of Defense budget is 600 billion. 5 billion is really a drop in the bucket of pork barrel horse trading in the grand scheme. Putting up much more meaningful policies to fight for would either win the Democrats a bigger progressive victory than they have won in 50 years or it would quickly shut Trump up on all his wall talk - something the current strategy isn't going to do. This is just going to end in a stalemate that benefits no one and hurts US workers.

Much more crafty and cunning negotiations are needed of the Democrat leadership at this time instead of just stalemating. They need to be making demands and fighting for real issues not just grand standing on saying no to Trump. Forcing this wall debate into a game of chicken for who can last longer keeping the government shut down is not the Pareto optimal strategy here.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
That's just not how American politics works. You have to force compromises to get things done. You have put things on the table that are more valuable than what the other party is putting up when the other party is vastly overvaluing one demand (Trump has heavily overvalued the wall, that is an advantage). For me green new deal + amendment to overturn Citizens United is a lot more valuable to the people of the US than simply 'not allowing funding for the wall'.

It also shifts the entire public debate to force Trump on the defensive. The Department of Defense budget is 600 billion. 5 billion is really a drop in the bucket of pork barrel horse trading in the grand scheme. Putting up much more meaningful policies to fight for would either win the Democrats a bigger progressive victory than they have won in 50 years or it would quickly shut Trump up on all his wall talk - something the current strategy isn't going to do. This is just going to end in a stalemate that benefits no one and hurts US workers.

Much more crafty and cunning negotiations are needed of the Democrat leadership at this time instead of just stalemating. They need to be making demands and fighting for real issues not just grand standing on saying no to Trump. Forcing this wall debate into a game of chicken for who can last longer keeping the government shut down is not the Pareto optimal strategy here.
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That has been the flaw for the last several decades. The price has always been paid by the American people.
Look at what has been suggested as a compromise by Republicans..... work permits for Dreamers?
In any case neither he nor the Republicans will accept the suggestion you made.

The moment any responsibility is accepted by the Democrats for this, they are part of the problem.
"Do the Right Thing"

He and the Republicans are willing to destroy this country for political survival.
They are the enemies of this nation.

The Mueller reports I am convinced will reveal Treason had been committed. He and the Republicans must pay the ultimate price.

It is simply about Justice and security of this Nation.


 
Red Dreams said:
That has been the flaw for the last several decades. The price has always been paid by the American people.
Look at what has been suggested as a compromise by Republicans..... work permits for Dreamers?
In any case neither he nor the Republicans will accept the suggestion you made.

The moment any responsibility is accepted by the Democrats for this, they are part of the problem.
"Do the Right Thing"

He and the Republicans are willing to destroy this country for political survival.
They are the enemies of this nation.

The Mueller reports I am convinced will reveal Treason had been committed. He and the Republicans must pay the ultimate price.

It is simply about Justice and security of this Nation.
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Sure. But then they would be trapped because they would then have to back down on the wall. All they are currently doing is stalemating on Trump's issue without fighting for anything meaningful.

But giving Trump and the Republicans a higher price than they are willing to pay, you can flip the national conversation onto something more meaningful. You put the Republicans and Trump on the defensive instead of continually only discussing the issues he wants everyone to discuss. As it is I'm betting on at least another month of stalemate before the Democrats end up folding and caving in just like you initially said you didn't want them to by giving in to half his demands.

I don't have any faith in their resolve to win a game of chicken with Trump over a government shutdown. I do think they could flip the issue by demanding things the Republicans likely won't want to give up but would be wildly popular in their base.

Its the difference between actually fighting for the people and not just fighting against Trump.

This is, btw, why Ocasio-Cortez is still gaining in popularity. Because she keeps fighting for something meaningful not just against someone.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Sure. But then they would be trapped because they would then have to back down on the wall. All they are currently doing is stalemating on Trump's issue without fighting for anything meaningful.

But giving Trump and the Republicans a higher price than they are willing to pay, you can flip the national conversation onto something more meaningful. You put the Republicans and Trump on the defensive instead of continually only discussing the issues he wants everyone to discuss. As it is I'm betting on at least another month of stalemate before the Democrats end up folding and caving in just like you initially said you didn't want them to by giving in to half his demands.

I don't have any faith in their resolve to win a game of chicken with Trump over a government shutdown. I do think they could flip the issue by demanding things the Republicans likely won't want to give up but would be wildly popular in their base.

Its the difference between actually fighting for the people and not just fighting against Trump.

This is, btw, why Ocasio-Cortez is still gaining in popularity. Because she keeps fighting for something meaningful not just against someone.
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I see the points you are making and the short term benefits.

But to recap. The Democrats passed a purely Republican bill that had passed both houses removing any Democratic portions.
He changed his mind. It is unimportant why he did. The reality is we are dealing with someone who has no morals or values.
He does not even love his children. I mean not in the sense most people do. Love involves sacrifice. Even a dog will sacrifice itself for his master.
In his own shallow way he 'loves' them I suppose. That is the key to defeating him.

To destroy a man , you destroy what he believes in.

btw 78% of Democrats do not want the House to give in to him. Giving him money that is needed elsewhere.
He is now moving to declaring he has Emergency powers to build the wall...which tells me he knows they wont cave in. he also used profanity in the meeting with them. Signs of his frustration and seeing defeat.

We are at war in this country. Make no mistake about it.

The key to securing the future of this nation is to gain power. We cannot any longer depend on the other side to be reasonable.
They no longer have any loyalty to this country. No matter what they say. You are judged by your actions, not your words.

The Democrats need to play the long game. I don't like using that phrase. This is Not a game.
Its about cutting out the cancer that is killing the entire nation.

This nation was founded on much pain and sacrifice...several times over.

This is just another such event.
 
Red Dreams said:
I see the points you are making and the short term benefits.

But to recap. The Democrats passed a purely Republican bill that had passed both houses removing any Democratic portions.
He changed his mind. It is unimportant why he did. The reality is we are dealing with someone who has no morals or values.
He does not even love his children. I mean not in the sense most people do. Love involves sacrifice. Even a dog will sacrifice itself for his master.
In his own shallow way he 'loves' them I suppose. That is the key to defeating him.

To destroy a man , you destroy what he believes in.

btw 78% of Democrats do not want the House to give in to him. Giving him money that is needed elsewhere.
He is now moving to declaring he has Emergency powers to build the wall...which tells me he knows they wont cave in. he also used profanity in the meeting with them. Signs of his frustration and seeing defeat.

We are at war in this country. Make no mistake about it.

The key to securing the future of this nation is to gain power. We cannot any longer depend on the other side to be reasonable.
They no longer have any loyalty to this country. No matter what they say. You are judged by your actions, not your words.

The Democrats need to play the long game. I don't like using that phrase. This is Not a game.
Its about cutting out the cancer that is killing the entire nation.

This nation was founded on much pain and sacrifice...several times over.

This is just another such event.
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I agree with your sentiment but I don't see their current strategy of just repeating "no wall" as playing any long game. I see that as the ultimate in short term thinking. The establishment Democrats are mutating into a variation on the Obama era- Republicans where they don't even stand for anything they are just so obsessed with hating Trump and every single Trump says they have forgotten what they are supposed to be fighting for in the first place.

I agree with your goal of not giving in. Where I disagree is that their current strategy will be successful. I don't believe it will. I believe their current strategy is just going to result in Schumer and company capitulating and giving in to some 50% wall compromise.

Whereas I believe the long term gains of demanding something progressive and positive in return for any wall funding (give us green new deal and agree to the amendment to overturn Citizens United) to be far more effective long term strategy than what they are currently doing.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
I agree with your sentiment but I don't see their current strategy of just repeating "no wall" as playing any long game. I see that as the ultimate in short term thinking. The establishment Democrats are mutating into a variation on the Obama era- Republicans where they don't even stand for anything they are just so obsessed with hating Trump and every single Trump says they have forgotten what they are supposed to be fighting for in the first place.

I agree with your goal of not giving in. Where I disagree is that their current strategy will be successful. I don't believe it will. I believe their current strategy is just going to result in Schumer and company capitulating and giving in to some 50% wall compromise.

Whereas I believe the long term gains of demanding something progressive and positive in return for any wall funding (give us green new deal and agree to the amendment to overturn Citizens United) to be far more effective long term strategy than what they are currently doing.
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Unfortunately true.

Politicians by an large are about their own political futures.

They forget it is about 'Service'. Serving the American people. Trump acts like he is king. And Republicans are enabling him.
The Democrats may cave. Who knows. How many truly believe in Justice?
Many think because they are not as bad as teh Republicans, it is acceptable. The bar is pretty low.

Did you hear Pelosi mention the BS about Universal Health Care costing 32 Trillion?
And All the problems with Medicare for All...while talking up how wonderful the ACA is.

This is a long fight. True Progressives need to be prepared to purge the party of the Corporatists.

wont happen overnight.
 
Red Dreams said:
Unfortunately true.

Politicians by an large are about their own political futures.

They forget it is about 'Service'. Serving the American people. Trump acts like he is king. And Republicans are enabling him.
The Democrats may cave. Who knows. How many truly believe in Justice?
Many think because they are not as bad as teh Republicans, it is acceptable. The bar is pretty low.

Did you hear Pelosi mention the BS about Universal Health Care costing 32 Trillion?
And All the problems with Medicare for All...while talking up how wonderful the ACA is.

This is a long fight. True Progressives need to be prepared to purge the party of the Corporatists.

wont happen overnight.
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Yeah its a long frustrating fight but at least people are starting to fight back. I think preparing for 2020 is important not just for the Presidential but for all the House races
 
Red Dreams said:
Politicians by an large are about their own political futures. They forget it is about 'Service'. Serving the American people.
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This is the crux of the problem though isn’t it. It’s why the electorate voted for a non-politician in 2016. The thought he would be different. That he would serve the American people with his MAGA phrase and his promise to bring manufacturing jobs back. He’s far worse than the politicians but they weren’t to know that and so they preferred to trust him rather than vote in the same again.

What will it take for the politicians to realise this? Probably a thunderbolt of a crisis. It’s going to get far worse before it can get any better.
 
Out of curiosity what is actually wrong with building a wall on the Mexican border?

Everyone agrees drugs and gangs trafficking from Mexico into USA is a problem. Everyone agrees the uncontrollable volume of immigration from Mexico over the past decades has been a problem. Border authorities are unanimous in their assertion that a wall would aid their task immensely. Trump was elected on a manifesto pledge by legitimate voters to build a wall.

Why not just build the wall? What is $5bn compared to the $681 military budget for example?
 
Red Defence said:
This is the crux of the problem though isn’t it. It’s why the electorate voted for a non-politician in 2016. The thought he would be different. That he would serve the American people with his MAGA phrase and his promise to bring manufacturing jobs back. He’s far worse than the politicians but they weren’t to know that and so they preferred to trust him rather than vote in the same again.

What will it take for the politicians to realise this? Probably a thunderbolt of a crisis. It’s going to get far worse before it can get any better.
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True.

It was a cry of desperation by people who felt abandoned. He also appealed to fears and hate.
The Democrats then nominated a very poor candidate who offered nothing..other than attacking Trump.

Even so he should not have won.
It was the perfect storm.
 
endless_wheelies said:
Out of curiosity what is actually wrong with building a wall on the Mexican border?

Everyone agrees drugs and gangs trafficking from Mexico into USA is a problem. Everyone agrees the uncontrollable volume of immigration from Mexico over the past decades has been a problem. Border authorities are unanimous in their assertion that a wall would aid their task immensely. Trump was elected on a manifesto pledge by legitimate voters to build a wall.

Why not just build the wall? What is $5bn compared to the $681 military budget for example?
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Where to start? Probably because walls don't work.

Nothing you have mentioned will stop if a wall was built. The majority of drugs come in from air, sea or down from Canada. The trafficking won't stop either as many come in via the same routes as the drugs.

There are things called ladders and tunnels too.

Let's not forget the real reason he wants the wall, it's purely down to racism.

Also, show me where border patrol officers and authorities unanimously think a wall will help, because I think that statement is bollocks and probably something pulled from Breitbart or Fox News.
 
endless_wheelies said:
Out of curiosity what is actually wrong with building a wall on the Mexican border?

Everyone agrees drugs and gangs trafficking from Mexico into USA is a problem. Everyone agrees the uncontrollable volume of immigration from Mexico over the past decades has been a problem. Border authorities are unanimous in their assertion that a wall would aid their task immensely. Trump was elected on a manifesto pledge by legitimate voters to build a wall.

Why not just build the wall? What is $5bn compared to the $681 military budget for example?
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Before you even begin to entertain the question, it helps to know why Trump is pushing the wall idea in the first place. It was basically an idea by his advisors to remind him to talk about illegal immigration in order to manipulate the emotions of right leaning voters during the campaign.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuart...or-donald-trumps-wall-came-from/#30ab65624415

In 2014, Trump’s plan to run for president moved into high gear. His political confidant was consultant Roger Stone. “Inside Trump’s circle, the power of illegal immigration to manipulate popular sentiment was readily apparent, and his advisers brainstormed methods for keeping their attention-addled boss on message,” writes Joshua Green, author of Devil’s Bargain: Steve Bannon, Donald Trump, and the Nationalist Uprising. “They needed a trick, a mnemonic device. In the summer of 2014, they found one that clicked.”

Joshua Green had good access to Trump insiders, including Sam Nunberg, who worked with Stone. “Roger Stone and I came up with the idea of ‘the Wall,’ and we talked to Steve [Bannon] about it,” according to Nunberg. “It was to make sure he [Trump] talked about immigration.”

The concept of the Wall did not click right away with the candidate. “Initially, Trump seemed indifferent to the idea,” writes Green. “But in January 2015, he tried it out at the Iowa Freedom Summit, a presidential cattle call put on by David Bossie’s group, Citizens United. ‘One of his pledges was, ‘I will build a Wall,’ and the place just went nuts,’ said Nunberg. Warming to the concept, Trump waited a beat and then added a flourish that brought down the house. ‘Nobody,’ he said, ‘builds like Trump.’”
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Once you understand the backstory, it's pointless to even ask the question about why we shouldn't just build a wall because doing so would legitimize Trump's race baiting rationale of why the idea exists in the first place. It's not to protect the country, but rather a cynically racist trope to manipulate the GOP base into believing Trump can save them from "the other".
 
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To be fair Bill Clinton once said a border wall would be the only way to completely stop illegal immigration across the Southern border.
 
freeurmind said:
To be fair Bill Clinton once said a border wall would be the only way to completely stop illegal immigration across the Southern border.
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To be fair that would be true if you stopped all flights, ships and legal border crossings. Given that no one is crazy enough to do that the wall doesn't make much sense.
 
freeurmind said:
To be fair Bill Clinton once said a border wall would be the only way to completely stop illegal immigration across the Southern border.
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I don't remember Clinton saying that but if he did, he would obviously be wrong since most illegals come here legally and overstay their visas. A wall wouldn't do anything to solve that. Also, if you ever have a chance to go to the border, the land is in many places extremely jagged and rocky to where it would be next to impossible to build anything. And that's even before we deal with the fact that much of the land is owned by private landowners who aren't interested in the government building a massive wall on their property.
 
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It’s impossible for anyone to legitimately believe that a wall would solve illegal immigration if they’ve spent more than 30 seconds thinking about it

Clintons was a con man just like Trunp
 
endless_wheelies said:
Out of curiosity what is actually wrong with building a wall on the Mexican border?

Everyone agrees drugs and gangs trafficking from Mexico into USA is a problem. Everyone agrees the uncontrollable volume of immigration from Mexico over the past decades has been a problem. Border authorities are unanimous in their assertion that a wall would aid their task immensely. Trump was elected on a manifesto pledge by legitimate voters to build a wall.

Why not just build the wall? What is $5bn compared to the $681 military budget for example?
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I’d rather $5billion go towards hiring more competent teachers so the next generation of youth don’t ask stupid questions and make stupid assertions like these.
 
endless_wheelies said:
Out of curiosity what is actually wrong with building a wall on the Mexican border?

Everyone agrees drugs and gangs trafficking from Mexico into USA is a problem. Everyone agrees the uncontrollable volume of immigration from Mexico over the past decades has been a problem. Border authorities are unanimous in their assertion that a wall would aid their task immensely. Trump was elected on a manifesto pledge by legitimate voters to build a wall.

Why not just build the wall? What is $5bn compared to the $681 military budget for example?
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For one, a wall cannot actually be completed due to the terrain. The cost would be more along the lines of $50B to build anything of note where building is even feasible.

Also, portions of it already exist, and the only thing it has accomplished along with increased pressure on choke points is lead untold hundreds or thousands of poor desparate people to their deaths trying more hazardous routes. The drugs and criminals are much better funded and still get across just fine.
 
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