The Trump Presidency | Biden Inaugurated

Status
Not open for further replies.
Red Dreams said:
He is far too busy lining his pockets. Its not because he has any moral compass.
is he better than Johnson?
American Foreign policy is a separate discussion. This guy does not have the intellect to have any such important idea. He sucks Putin's cock. That is as far as his foreign policy goes.
Click to expand...

Johnson wasn't a bad president. He got derailed by the Vietnam War. If you have ever listened to audio recordings of him, he was legitimately torn up by what was going on. He couldn't reconcile what was happening in Vietnam on a humanitarian level, with the USA "losing", as in, he couldn't find a way to get out of the war, or end the war. It might seem like a simple solution, just walk away, but it wasn't that simple, it was a catch-22. Just walk away, America suffers potentially an irreparable of loss of face and prestige. Walk away and the South falls (they did actually believe the domino theory), vs staying in and trying to find a path forward. Ultimately, instead of continuing with that struggle, he walked away. However you view it today, you have to understand their decision making from their point of view. What they thought, believed, knew, and considered. What is apparent when you look at two of the most maligned characters in the war, Johnson and McNamara, they didn't want what happened. McNamara especially wanted the USA to get out once he realized what was happening, but he shut his mouth and didn't undermine the war. It came out much later, the 80's I think, what McNamara actually thought and did. Johnson as well, was very clearly distraught over the humanitarian issues.

Then consider what he wanted to do domestically. Sweeping liberal reforms. He wasn't a bad president, he was a president who got handed a shitty deal, and had the war not been going on, he might have been a great president.
 
Nucks said:
Johnson wasn't a bad president. He got derailed by the Vietnam War. If you have ever listened to audio recordings of him, he was legitimately torn up by what was going on. He couldn't reconcile what was happening in Vietnam on a humanitarian level, with the USA "losing", as in, he couldn't find a way to get out of the war, or end the war. It might seem like a simple solution, just walk away, but it wasn't that simple, it was a catch-22. Just walk away, America suffers potentially an irreparable of loss of face and prestige. Walk away and the South falls (they did actually believe the domino theory), vs staying in and trying to find a path forward. Ultimately, instead of continuing with that struggle, he walked away. However you view it today, you have to understand their decision making from their point of view. What they thought, believed, knew, and considered. What is apparent when you look at two of the most maligned characters in the war, Johnson and McNamara, they didn't want what happened. McNamara especially wanted the USA to get out once he realized what was happening, but he shut his mouth and didn't undermine the war. It came out much later, the 80's I think, what McNamara actually thought and did. Johnson as well, was very clearly distraught over the humanitarian issues.

Then consider what he wanted to do domestically. Sweeping liberal reforms. He wasn't a bad president, he was a president who got handed a shitty deal, and had the war not been going on, he might have been a great president.
Click to expand...
Did he get a shitty deal though ? He didn't inherit the complete mess like Nixon did. Johnson did intensify the US deployment to SE Asia drastically. Correct me if I am wrong of course.
 
The Firestarter said:
Did he get a shitty deal though ? He didn't inherit the complete mess like Nixon did. Johnson did intensify the US deployment to SE Asia drastically. Correct me if I am wrong of course.
Click to expand...

Prolonging the Vietnam war was was a Nixon strategy with which to beat Johnson up with. Kissinger informed Nixon a peace plan was in the pipeline and Nixon scuttled it by telling voters Johnson can't get us out of Vietnam, but I can. At the same time he had a deal with the South Vietnamese to stall the peace talks. Messy. 30k Americans had died by this point. Over 58k were dead by the end. Did 28k die so help Nixon win a Presidency?
 
NotworkSte said:
Prolonging the Vietnam war was was a Nixon strategy with which to beat Johnson up with. Kissinger informed Nixon a peace plan was in the pipeline and Nixon scuttled it by telling voters Johnson can't get us out of Vietnam, but I can. At the same time he had a deal with the South Vietnamese to stall the peace talks. Messy. 30k Americans had died by this point. Over 58k were dead by the end. Did 28k die so help Nixon win a Presidency?
Click to expand...
These machinations took place near the end of his term. The issue is he deployed hundreds of thousands boots on the ground long before that point.
 
Nucks said:
Johnson wasn't a bad president. He got derailed by the Vietnam War. If you have ever listened to audio recordings of him, he was legitimately torn up by what was going on. He couldn't reconcile what was happening in Vietnam on a humanitarian level, with the USA "losing", as in, he couldn't find a way to get out of the war, or end the war. It might seem like a simple solution, just walk away, but it wasn't that simple, it was a catch-22. Just walk away, America suffers potentially an irreparable of loss of face and prestige. Walk away and the South falls (they did actually believe the domino theory), vs staying in and trying to find a path forward. Ultimately, instead of continuing with that struggle, he walked away. However you view it today, you have to understand their decision making from their point of view. What they thought, believed, knew, and considered. What is apparent when you look at two of the most maligned characters in the war, Johnson and McNamara, they didn't want what happened. McNamara especially wanted the USA to get out once he realized what was happening, but he shut his mouth and didn't undermine the war. It came out much later, the 80's I think, what McNamara actually thought and did. Johnson as well, was very clearly distraught over the humanitarian issues.

Then consider what he wanted to do domestically. Sweeping liberal reforms. He wasn't a bad president, he was a president who got handed a shitty deal, and had the war not been going on, he might have been a great president.
Click to expand...

I agree with much of what you say, except that he reversed Kennedy's decision to leave Vietnam.

EDIT:

NSAM 263.

https://whowhatwhy.org/2017/09/26/jfk-ordered-full-withdrawal-vietnam-solid-evidence/
 
Last edited:
The Firestarter said:
These machinations took place near the end of his term. The issue is he deployed hundreds of thousands boots on the ground long before that point.
Click to expand...

Correct. The point remains is that there might not even have been a Vietnam by the next election, but for Nixon meddling. We will never know that.
However it's interesting to me that many more people died, because Nixon wanted to win an election. That's as downright unpatriotic, traitorous as you get, yet Nixon essentially gets a pass on it because he is Republican. Same reason Trump does for his flirtations with the Russians. I will never understand the Republicans making peace with this and "supporting our troops".
 
langster said:
I've said it before, what is more worrying, The fact Trump is so obviously corrupt and insane? OR the fact millions of people still support him? Be it because they are too stupid and brainwashed or full of hate, or simply because they are that selfish and greedy and just like owning the libs...

Also, should we all be laughing at this? Or just crying?

Click to expand...


His support is definitely the worrying part, or rather the amount of support. That his approval rating is still hovering around 40% blows my mind every time I see it. The thing is that I don't really blame Trump for being Trump, we all knew he would be a complete trainwreck and he obviously isn't capable of doing it in any other way. However I don't think a lot of us expected that two years later so many people would still be ok with having such a monumental moron leading their country and it's downright scary to see his supporters twist and turn every single one of their moral fibres to defend him.

It's a 'the end justifies the means' mentality on a level I've never seen before and it's come to a point now when I'm just waiting for Trump to suggest something like boosting American car sales by sending attack submarines to sink cargo ships with European cars heading over the Atlantic and 40% of the US population will go "YES, it's great to have a president who cares about American jobs!"
 
Wait till the markets properly sink from "Trumponomics" and those people getting a "little extra" in their pay cheques end up paying more again... that's when the tides turn.

However you still have supporters who blindly follow the GOP no matter who is President or even just Trump's base which makes up at least 30% of the population.
 
Last edited:
Presumably this been asked before, but how do most Americans feel about the shutdown? I get that it doesn't have much impact on the day to day citizens, at least in the short term, and if it doesn't impact on them then they're ambivalent from that perspective.

The bit that I don't get is it seems people are ambivalent about the fact it makes 800k people temporarily unemployed, and for purely political reasons. Does the average American not empathise with this people, or is that empathy just not broadcast in the media? Doesn't it signal how little politicians care about the average American worker?

It's not like they were forced to do it, or they don't have other tactics they can employ for their legitimate political goals. They just think their lives matter so little that they can be a political weapon whenever they fancy it.
 
Well if you're going to by some of the Trump supporters on social media,overall,I dont think they really care about the shutdown.And those who are effected should,quoting some of Trump's fanbase, "get real jobs".:wenger:
 
BrianMcClair'sBarnet said:
Well if you're going to by some of the Trump supporters on social media,overall,I dont think they really care about the shutdown.And those who are effected should,quoting some of Trump's fanbase, "get real jobs".:wenger:
Click to expand...
Yeah, the majority I've read essentially said that those government workers are on cushy jobs with 'Cadillac' healthcare so they should quit crying.

Nevermind the fact that average wage for gov workers is distorted a lot by VA doctors, or many of them are on tempt contracts etc. It does explain a bit their antipathy to anyone outside of the US when they even treat their own countrymen that way.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Yeah, the majority I've read essentially said that those government workers are on cushy jobs with 'Cadillac' healthcare so they should quit crying.

Nevermind the fact that average wage for gov workers is distorted a lot by VA doctors, or many of them are on tempt contracts etc. It does explain a bit their antipathy to anyone outside of the US when they even treat their own countrymen that way.
Click to expand...
If there is one thing I know since 16 is that trump supporters haven't got a clue of how shit works, especially the government.
 
Brwned said:
The bit that I don't get is it seems people are ambivalent about the fact it makes 800k people temporarily unemployed, and for purely political reasons. Does the average American not empathise with this people, or is that empathy just not broadcast in the media? Doesn't it signal how little politicians care about the average American worker?
Click to expand...

I wrote out a long-winded reply to this but then realized that "empathy is in short supply in America" was the better response.
 
Brwned said:
Presumably this been asked before, but how do most Americans feel about the shutdown? I get that it doesn't have much impact on the day to day citizens, at least in the short term, and if it doesn't impact on them then they're ambivalent from that perspective.

The bit that I don't get is it seems people are ambivalent about the fact it makes 800k people temporarily unemployed, and for purely political reasons. Does the average American not empathise with this people, or is that empathy just not broadcast in the media? Doesn't it signal how little politicians care about the average American worker?

It's not like they were forced to do it, or they don't have other tactics they can employ for their legitimate political goals. They just think their lives matter so little that they can be a political weapon whenever they fancy it.
Click to expand...

That's the wrong way of looking at it. The country is divided into factions, one that definitely doesn't care (Trump supporters) and the rest are either ambivalent or too busy making ends meet to get upset about something that doesn't affect them.
 
Brwned said:
Presumably this been asked before, but how do most Americans feel about the shutdown? I get that it doesn't have much impact on the day to day citizens, at least in the short term, and if it doesn't impact on them then they're ambivalent from that perspective.

The bit that I don't get is it seems people are ambivalent about the fact it makes 800k people temporarily unemployed, and for purely political reasons. Does the average American not empathise with this people, or is that empathy just not broadcast in the media? Doesn't it signal how little politicians care about the average American worker?

It's not like they were forced to do it, or they don't have other tactics they can employ for their legitimate political goals. They just think their lives matter so little that they can be a political weapon whenever they fancy it.
Click to expand...
Part of the “I’m alright Jack” culture that seems to be endemic in the US. It’s also evident in their attitude to healthcare for one thing, which is something you don’t see in many...if any...other parts of the world.
 
Raoul said:
That's the wrong way of looking at it. The country is divided into factions, one that definitely doesn't care (Trump supporters) and the rest are either ambivalent or too busy making ends meet to get upset about something that doesn't affect them.
Click to expand...

Yeah I kinda thought the same when I was writing it. There is no average American. But then you can extend that argument all the way down to Trump supporters - are they really one faction? They don't think so.

If we can generalise to that degree, why is it that Trump supporters definitely dont care? Beyond pure partisanship, I mean. I know most republicans don't like big government, but I assume that doesn't mean they dislike government workers. Just the institution. Or is that totally wrong?

I've no doubt a large portion of the UK would care a lot more about it than the US seems to. In Northern Ireland the public sector is about 65% of the economy, so it's unique in the UK never mind elsewhere, but the vast majority are unhappy about our own version of the government shutdown over partisan bollocks. And these people still get paid! (to work elsewhere in the civil service)

I can't imagine what would need to change culturally for us to think it was ok to use public servants as political pawns.
 
the only person who is using public servants as political pawns is the idiot in the WH.
Wall? There is no such thing. Its the race card. To give in to this is give a pass to pure racism.
The Mueller findings will need to be acted on.
And the full force of the law applied....

without mercy.
 
Brwned said:
Yeah I kinda thought the same when I was writing it. There is no average American. But then you can extend that argument all the way down to Trump supporters - are they really one faction? They don't think so.

If we can generalise to that degree, why is it that Trump supporters definitely dont care? Beyond pure partisanship, I mean. I know most republicans don't like big government, but I assume that doesn't mean they dislike government workers. Just the institution. Or is that totally wrong?

I've no doubt a large portion of the UK would care a lot more about it than the US seems to. In Northern Ireland the public sector is about 65% of the economy, so it's unique in the UK never mind elsewhere, but the vast majority are unhappy about our own version of the government shutdown over partisan bollocks. And these people still get paid! (to work elsewhere in the civil service)

I can't imagine what would need to change culturally for us to think it was ok to use public servants as political pawns.
Click to expand...

In the US it's closer to 15%. Also, there's a bit of an inversion of how public servants are perceived in Europe vs the US. Europeans tend to look at public services as an expected return on their taxes and as such, the public servants who work to provide them services are viewed as fundamental. In the US, where entrepreneurship is allegedly held in high esteem, public servants are often viewed as people who are reliant on other people's taxes to sustain themselves and therefore if a shutdown happens, public sympathy isn't nearly where it would be if something like this happened in another country.
 
Brwned said:
Yeah I kinda thought the same when I was writing it. There is no average American. But then you can extend that argument all the way down to Trump supporters - are they really one faction? They don't think so.

If we can generalise to that degree, why is it that Trump supporters definitely dont care? Beyond pure partisanship, I mean. I know most republicans don't like big government, but I assume that doesn't mean they dislike government workers. Just the institution. Or is that totally wrong?

I've no doubt a large portion of the UK would care a lot more about it than the US seems to. In Northern Ireland the public sector is about 65% of the economy, so it's unique in the UK never mind elsewhere, but the vast majority are unhappy about our own version of the government shutdown over partisan bollocks. And these people still get paid! (to work elsewhere in the civil service)

I can't imagine what would need to change culturally for us to think it was ok to use public servants as political pawns.
Click to expand...

Don't underestimate the pure partisanship from either the Republicans or Democrats in the US. Reality is that the Democrats blame Trump 100% for the shutdown thus absolving themselves of any guilt. And the reverse for the Republicans, the shutdown is 100% the Democrats fault. Its simple, ask any of the Democrats why they don't feel empathy to compromise during the shutdown. Its clear the Democrats care more about not allowing Trump a win on the wall than they do the plight of any workers.
 
BrianMcClair'sBarnet said:
Well if you're going to by some of the Trump supporters on social media,overall,I dont think they really care about the shutdown.And those who are effected should,quoting some of Trump's fanbase, "get real jobs".:wenger:
Click to expand...
Because Trump's fanbase works a lot, right? They spend most of the time on Twitter licking Trump's ass.
 
Raoul said:
In the US, where entrepreneurship is allegedly held in high esteem, public servants are often viewed as people who are reliant on other people's taxes to sustain themselves
Click to expand...
@Brwned
To shed more light on this fact, a common phrase conservatives like to throw out is, “those who can, do... and those who can’t, teach”, when talking about public school teachers.
 
Red Defence said:
Are the FBI classed as federal (government) employees?

And theCIA, Navy, the Air Force, the Army and the police?
Click to expand...

More than 41,000 federal law enforcement and correctional officers are impacted, including:

-- 2,614 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) agents.

-- 16,742 Bureau of Prisons correctional officers.

-- 13,709 FBI agents.

-- 3,600 Deputy US Marshals.

-- 4,399 Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) agents.
.
Homeland security

Up to 88 percent of Department of Homeland Security employees are affected, including:

-- 53,000 TSA employees.

-- 54,000 Customs and Border Protection agents and customs officers.

-- 42,000 Coast Guard employees.

-- As many as 5,000 US. Forest Service firefighters.

-- 3,600 National Weather Service forecasters.

Furloughed employees

Some 380,000 employees are furloughed, meaning they are out of work without pay including:

-- 86 percent of Department of Commerce, about 41,000 staff members.

-- 96 percent of NASA, about 16,700 staff members.

-- More than 80 percent of the National Park Service, about 16,000 staff members.

-- At least 80 percent of the Forest Service, about 28,800 staff members.

-- More than 30 percent of Department of Transportation, about 18,300 staff members.

-- 95 percent of Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), about 7,100 staff members.

-- Approximately 52,000 IRS staff members.

Museums and the zoo

-- 1 national zoo (in Washington, D.C.) will close Jan. 2 if there is no resolution before then. (Don’t worry about the animals though; the National Zoo said the care and feeding of animals will always continue even without funding).

-- 19 Smithsonian museums (in Washington, D.C. and New York) will close Jan. 2 if there is no resolution before then.
Click to expand...

The Secret Service arnt being paid i believe.
 


Put together like this, it’s actually hard to believe any normal, thinking person wouldn’t look at this abomination and go ‘yeah, he’s full of shite’.
 
The Firestarter said:
53000 TSA employees.... What does that entail for airport operations ? Even bigger queues I presume :nervous:
Click to expand...

They are meant to work on through the shut down but "coincidently" enough everyone has called in sick :lol: bit of the flu going around i suspect.

https://www.theroot.com/tsa-agents-want-no-parts-of-unpaid-work-during-governme-1831527815

Apparently these guys don't even get backpay what the majority of federal employees usually get in a shutdown situation (allegedy)
 
Precaution said:
They are meant to work on through the shut down but "coincidently" enough everyone has called in sick :lol: bit of the flu going around i suspect.

https://www.theroot.com/tsa-agents-want-no-parts-of-unpaid-work-during-governme-1831527815

Apparently these guys don't even get backpay what the majority of federal employees usually get in a shutdown situation (allegedy)
Click to expand...
The US seems to have useless Unions too. Where are the Union officials now! They should call everyone out on strike. No pay then no working.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.