The Trump Presidency | Biden Inaugurated

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All this nonsense about flags and anthems. They’re just outdated tools for lords to keep their subjects proud of being used as cash cows and labourers to further their agenda.

Trump’s daily routine is proclaiming half the country (democrats) love crime, hate America, want to give your children to MS-13 and are the root of all evil. How is constantly shitting on half the population compatible to insisting people are loyal to yer dumb fecking flag. Either remove every blue state star from it or shut the feck up.

All this anthem and flag stuff can be summed up to, we’re in this country together, try not to be a dick to the new people and share some of your stuff. Do that while using star spangled toilet paper to wipe your bum and the country will be just fine.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Why should they, at a sporting event no less? Allegiance should be a free commitment, not forced. If someone feels injustice in their own society then surely they have a right to voice their objections?
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It's reasonable to argue that national anthems are irrelevant at sporting events. But if played, they should be respected by the participants.
 
Will Absolute said:
That's fine, but very legalistic. My point is a little broader. It may appear nebulous, but America has successfully integrated immigrants from all over the globe for two hundred years by embracing an aggressive form of sentimental nationalism. Were they really so misguided when they placed so much emphasis on public expressions of patriotism as a means of welding their embryonic and patchwork society together?
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Has that really only been the only reason though? When I think of the US I think of the war of independence, the civil rights movement, the emancipation proclamation and the nineteenth amendment. All of those things were in the face of laws which prevented them from doing and saying what they knew in their hearts to be true. But through sheer determination for their cause, against immense force from those that became their enemies because they tried to change something, they persevered. The whole talk about being free in America is underpinned by the people’s right to free speech - to actively pursue their dreams of a better tomorrow for them and theirs.

The whole kneeling for the national anthem is a distraction from the reasons behind the kneeling in the first place, and once again the debate has been hijacked by an interest group who are trying to score their own political points to further their own gains. Trump doesn’t give one single shit about the kneeling being disrespectful, just like he doesn’t give a shit about the removal of gun rights going against the constitution. He’s pissed like many others because someone is having the gall to try and change something.
 
Will Absolute said:
It's reasonable to argue that national anthems are irrelevant at sporting events. But if played, they should be respected by the participants.
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They are taking a knee ffs. Not setting fire to the flag and shouting over the anthem. As enlightened as you pretend to be, you're coming across quite blinkered...
 
Billy Blaggs said:
So you think in your free country that people should perhaps be cast aside for not standing for the symbol of freedom?
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No. I'm not in favour of legal sanctions. Societal pressure is enough to ensure that people don't engage in gross acts of disrespect. The actions of the footballers are probably as far as such protests will ever be pushed. Which, in my opinion, is too far. But the players are within their legal rights.
 
Will Absolute said:
It's reasonable to argue that national anthems are irrelevant at sporting events. But if played, they should be respected by the participants.
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Would you have saluted for Hitler if you were a German in 1938?
 
Will Absolute said:
It's reasonable to argue that national anthems are irrelevant at sporting events. But if played, they should be respected by the participants.
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I suppose it’s like whenever I’m at Hampden and Flower of Scotland plays, and you feel obligated to sing it along with everyone else. At least here it only happens a handful of times each year because it’s only for international friendlies, World Cup qualifiers and the World Cup itself.
 
Will Absolute said:
No, there's no 'back' to go back to. But America does require new citizens to pledge allegiance to the flag as a symbol of the Nation itself; is it really asking too much of existing citizens to reaffirm their own allegiance when the occasion arises, or at least not actively repudiate it?
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Even this part isn't right. Naturalized citizens pledge allegiance to the country and the constitution, the flag or anthem are never mentioned. https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenshi...ization-oath-allegiance-united-states-america

Obviously there will be flags present at a naturalization ceremony, probably many. But the key tenets of American citizenship are: support of the constitution and laws, renouncing other allegiances, commitment to serve the military or government if so required (most likely a draft).
 
MTF said:
Even this part isn't right. Naturalized citizens pledge allegiance to the country and the constitution, the flag or anthem are never mentioned. https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenshi...ization-oath-allegiance-united-states-america

Obviously there will be flags present at a naturalization ceremony, probably many. But the key tenets of American citizenship are: support of the constitution and laws, renouncing other allegiances, commitment to serve the military or government if so required (most likely a draft).
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My mistake. But the country, constitution and flag are not separate things. If someone tramples on the flag, they're not disrespecting a piece of cloth. Their action is directed at what that flag stands for, which both they, and those who disagree with them, fully understand.
 
Will Absolute said:
I wasn't talking about legal or constitutional rights.

A member of a community accepts obligations to the whole beyond those defined and enforced by law. In a society composed of diverse individuals and groups, many with conflicting interests, an accommodation is necessary in which we don't aggressively push our own cause when that interferes with the right of others to pursue their very different agendas.

Instead, we designate forums in which conflicts of interest can be addressed - around a communal fire in a hunter gatherer camp, a gathering of elders in a village, the Agora in Classical Greece, a town hall meeting in middle America ... We create appropriate spaces for discussion and dissent; outside of those spaces the business of the society is allowed to proceed as normal. Without this restraint the life of the community is fatally impaired.

The actions of the NFL players violates that compact. The normal business of the community - watching a football match - is turned into an occasion of political dissent. Those who have contracted to watch a football game are forced into becoming unwilling spectators to a protest in which their values are insulted.

A belief that America is so broken that the social contract is abrogated might excuse the actions of the players. But these particular young men show no reluctance to profit greatly from that contract while proclaiming their disdain for its symbols.
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Why should the crowd contracted to watch a football match have to listen to the national anthem?

EDIT : Other people said it
 
Will Absolute said:
It's reasonable to argue that national anthems are irrelevant at sporting events. But if played, they should be respected by the participants.
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No one is disrespecting the anthem by not standing for it. Millions of people watch sporting events at bars and pubs throughout the country and rarely stand.
 
Will Absolute said:
My mistake. But the country, constitution and flag are not separate things. If someone tramples on the flag, they're not disrespecting a piece of cloth. Their action is directed at what that flag stands for, which both they, and those who disagree with them, fully understand.
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The US is a country founded much more on laws than national identity, customs or culture. Even because much of the identity came after the founding. As such, I find that the constitution is more important than the symbols, which isn't necessarily the case in all countries.
 
Will Absolute said:
No. I'm not in favour of legal sanctions. Societal pressure is enough to ensure that people don't engage in gross acts of disrespect. The actions of the footballers are probably as far as such protests will ever be pushed. Which, in my opinion, is too far. But the players are within their legal rights.
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Gotcha. I misunderstood your post.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
If you are expecting a 'free' society with absolutely no rules, you're chasing a mirage. These are democratic rules that can be changed any time. But till such a change is made, it's up everyone to follow them. You can't pick and choose which laws to obey and which not to. If you are against it, go ahead and get it changed...but ignoring set laws and just going by your own opinions will just be anarchy.
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Even if it was a directive (in fact especially if it was a directive) it wouldn't in any way contradict my position - that fealty freely given is worth more than that which is extorted, that the extortion itself is dissonant with the first amendment and that requiring compliance in combination with its encroachment into all spheres of public life turns it into a weapon.

I don't really find yours to be a substantive response to any of that but it is amusing that after delightedly unearthing the US code you unfortunately found the relevant stipulation to be suggestive and not regulatory making your entire post moot.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Though I lifted this from USCIS website, I think this qualifies across all countries.
  • Support and defend the Constitution.
  • Stay informed of the issues affecting your community.
  • Participate in the democratic process.
  • Respect and obey federal, state, and local laws.
  • Respect the rights, beliefs, and opinions of others.
  • Participate in your local community.
  • Pay income and other taxes honestly, and on time, to federal, state, and local authorities.
  • Serve on a jury when called upon.
  • Defend the country if the need should arise.
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You just displayed why a piece of cloth and a, frankly shite, song mean jack shit.
 
Col. Peters was just on CNN and didn't mince his words when questioned about Trump and Fox. It was scathing stuff.
 
Watching Sarah Sanders on Cuomo's show right now. She seems like she is on her last legs as Trump's spokeswoman.
 
Raoul said:
She looks like she is ready to quit. Thought she was going to burst into tears at any point.
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She deserves all the hell that can befall someone. I was shocked to recently learn that she is only in her mid 30s, thought she was much older. That’s what happens to someone who wantonly lies for a living, I guess.
 
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