The Trump Presidency | Biden Inaugurated

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Raoul said:
I don't think they have to belong to an organization, but they do have to overtly proclaim racist views that are widely regarded as racist by both the left and the right. Take David Duke for instance - he's an actual racist who is broadly recognized as such by people on both the left and the right. That's a proper racist imo. Therefore, squandering the term on people like Trump only dilutes its value when its applied to the likes of Duke and Richard Spencer; two actual admitted racists.
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No they just have to hold them.
 
Raoul said:
Even if you believe that (I don’t), she is a public figure working for a very public company (Disney/ESPN), and they are well within their rights to suspend or sack her if her political activity impugnes their brand by way of boycots or subscription cancellations.
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They are within their right if she says things that go against their beliefs but they don't have to sack her.
 
Fully Fledged said:
They are within their right if she says things that go against their beliefs but they don't have to sack her.
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They should though, as once you allow this sort of thing more people are likely to engage in it by thinking it was ok because nothing will happen to them. Corporations are in the business of building a brand to make money, not to behave as vessels for one sided political speech. I would take this position on Trump as well as if a right winger did the same to Obama.
 
Raoul said:
They should though, as once you allow this sort of thing more people are likely to engage in it by thinking it was ok because nothing will happen to them. Corporations are in the business of building a brand to make money, not to behave as vessels for one sided political speech. I would take this position on Trump as well as if a right winger did the same to Obama.
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There are millions of people who agree with her. They face them boycotting if the do sack her.
 
Raoul said:
The two aren't related to one another.
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The fact that there is evidence of both is the relation.
His abuse of a judge because he has Mexican heritage. His reticence to condemn racist groups. His saying that there are good people at a white supremacist march. The way he attacked the family of a slain soldier saying the mother was not allowed to speak because she was a Muslim woman. Saying Obama was African.

I can look up other instances of his racism but there should be enough there for anybody.
 
Fully Fledged said:
There are millions of people who agree with her. They face them boycotting if the do sack her.
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They will eventually get rid of her as corporations can't afford to carry the drama. ESPN isn't a political organization and can't afford to support these sorts of nonsensical acts going forward.
 
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Fully Fledged said:
The fact that there is evidence of both is the relation.
His abuse of a judge because he has Mexican heritage. His reticence to condemn racist groups. His saying that there are good people at a white supremacist march. The way he attacked the family of a slain soldier saying the mother was not allowed to speak because she was a Muslim woman. Saying Obama was African.


I can look up other instances of his racism but there should be enough there for anybody.
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There isn't evidence to both other than what is in your own mind. Trump was spot on in saying there were bad people on both sides, as there were indeed violent protestors on both sides. Its a factual statement that is undeniable.
 
Raoul said:
There isn't evidence to both other than what is in your own mind. Trump was spot on in saying there were bad people on both sides, as there were indeed violent protestors on both sides. Its a factual statement that is undeniable.
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I never mentioned bad people on both sides I said saying that there were good people walking down the street chanting racist slogans.
If you don't think that saying you can't trust a judge because his parents a Mexican, That saying that Muslim women are not allowed to talk and the the first African American POTUS was African then I give up.

I must admit I feel sorry for someone who believes that these are acceptable view points for anyone to hold let alone the POTUS.
 
Fully Fledged said:
I never mentioned bad people on both sides I said saying that there were good people walking down the street chanting racist slogans.
If you don't think that saying you can't trust a judge because his parents a Mexican, That saying that Muslim women are not allowed to talk and the the first African American POTUS was African then I give up.

I must admit I feel sorry for someone who believes that these are acceptable view points for anyone to hold let alone the POTUS.
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I thought the bits about the judge and Obama were incredibly inappropriate, but its hard to label Trump a racist, especially when he has blacks, asians, and jews in his cabinet. Is that something a "white supremacist" would do ?
 
Raoul said:
I thought the bits about the judge and Obama were incredibly inappropriate, but its hard to label Trump a racist, especially when he has blacks, asians, and jews in his cabinet. Is that something a "white supremacist" would do ?
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As I said I give up. I put more importance on what somebody says or does in a moment of passion be that anger or happiness than I do when they are thinking rationally.

There is no way that having a complete white cabinet would go unnoticed that was decided in the cold light of day.
 
Fully Fledged said:
As I said I give up. I put more importance on what somebody says or does in a moment of passion be that anger or happiness than I do when they are thinking rationally.

There is no way that having a complete white cabinet would go unnoticed that was decided in the cold light of day.
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In terms of believing what Trump says - the guy is obviously a bullshitter who is known to say things to gain favor in front of specific audiences, then once he has their support he does whatever he wants. He is completely transactional and lacking in any coherent moral compass in this regard. He views life strictly in terms of winning or losing.
 
Raoul said:
I don't think they have to belong to an organization, but they do have to overtly proclaim racist views that are widely regarded as racist by both the left and the right. Take David Duke for instance - he's an actual racist who is broadly recognized as such by people on both the left and the right. That's a proper racist imo. Therefore, squandering the term on people like Trump only dilutes its value when its applied to the likes of Duke and Richard Spencer; two actual admitted racists.
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Massively disagree - you might not have meant it this way, but surely actions can be racist, especially if borne from racist thought.
 
What I get from Trump is that he's racist in the way probably a lot or most white people of his generation are - lazy stereotypes and generalizations, that kind of stuff. Not sure if it goes any further into actual ideological racism, but he's clearly in bed with those types to a certain degree.
 
Raoul said:
As for calling Trump a white supremacist - anyone who does that is literally demeaning the value of the term when its applied to the likes of David Duke and other actual white supremacists. Its generally a lazy way for people to use a pejorative because they lack the ability to make a more nuanced argument about what is driving Trump's actions.
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Trump is a white supremacist though. While not as obviously overt as David Duke, he still pretty obviously is. From the Obama birther demands of a birth certificate, to the Muslim bans, to the racist attacks against Mexican immigrants, to the advertisements to have black men who were wrongly accused of raping a white woman to be strung up, to not allowing none white peoples to rent his properties, to demanding black employees didn't serve him or his white guests, to the lack of condeming the Klan/Neo Nazis, to the mock Nazi salutes at his ralies.

Are you forgeting an awful lot of Trump's racism here Raoul?
 
unchanged_lineup said:
@Raoul, could you explain your take on these two things in relation to Trump?

1. His birtherism
2. Central Park Five
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Horrible stuff. He should be held to account for each of these. Same goes for his treatment of all the women who accused him of being inappropriate (and as he himself admitted in the Access Hollywood tape).
 
WackyWengerWorld said:
Trump is a white supremacist though. While not as obviously overt as David Duke, he still pretty obviously is. From the Obama birther demands of a birth certificate, to the Muslim bans, to the racist attacks against Mexican immigrants, to the advertisements to have black men who were wrongly accused of raping a white woman to be strung up, to not allowing none white peoples to rent his properties, to demanding black employees didn't serve him or his white guests, to the lack of condeming the Klan/Neo Nazis, to the mock Nazi salutes at his ralies.

Are you forgeting an awful lot of Trump's racism here Raoul?
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From the 80s until around 2010/11, he was fairly politically liberal (by U.S. standards). I think he made the calculation that he had to create a race-baiting conservative brand in order to gain legitimacy within the Tea Party/conservative movements prior to making a Presidential run. Bannon of course only reinforced this.
 
Fully Fledged said:
You'll be telling me there is no evidence that he's a sex offender next.
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Is he really? What sexual offences has he committed? Saying some words isn't a sexual assault, as far as I know. Men often say such stupid things when they are in a company, doesn't mean they are rapists or whatever. The only reason it's taken into acount is because Trump is the President, I guess and as such he is held to a higher standard, but what he said in private shouldn't be counted as anything more than a dumb comment with the sole purpose of impressing someone. And correct me if I'm wrong, but when he made that comment he was already married to Melania.

WackyWengerWorld said:
to the Muslim bans, to the racist attacks against Mexican immigrants
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Don't have any knowledge on the rest but these two are not racist in any way. Wanting to limit immigration into your country can't be considered racist in any way. Why should Trump care about any other people than the Americans living in America? Has America fixed its every problem to start taking other people in and fix their problems, as well? I don't think so. Not to mention that there is a valid criticism regarding illegal Mexican and Muslim immigrants. We both know what these are and they may seem racist to you, but they are valid nonetheless.
 
Dumat12 said:
Is he really? What sexual offences has he committed? Saying some words isn't a sexual assault, as far as I know. Men often say such stupid things when they are in a company, doesn't mean they are rapists or whatever. The only reason it's taken into acount is because Trump is the President, I guess and as such he is held to a higher standard, but what he said in private shouldn't be counted as anything more than a dumb comment with the sole purpose of impressing someone. And correct me if I'm wrong, but when he made that comment he was already married to Melania.


Don't have any knowledge on the rest but these two are not racist in any way. Wanting to limit immigration into your country can't be considered racist in any way. Why should Trump care about any other people than the Americans living in America? Has America fixed its every problem to start taking other people in and fix their problems, as well? I don't think so. Not to mention that there is a valid criticism regarding illegal Mexican and Muslim immigrants. We both know what these are and they may seem racist to you, but they are valid nonetheless.
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Grabbing women in the genitals is sexual assault.
 
Raoul said:
Grabbing women in the genitals is sexual assault.
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Well, of course, but do we know if he did any of that? From that video the only thing I can take out of that situation is that he made a stupid comment with the sole intent of impressing someone, kinda like a child.
 
Dumat12 said:
Well, of course, but do we know if he did any of that? From that video the only thing I can take out of that situation is that he made a stupid comment with the sole intent of impressing someone, kinda like a child.
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He obviously wouldn't have said it if he hadn't done it before. He didn't know it was being recorded so he had no incentive to lie about it. In fact, kissing someone without invitation or grabbing them anywhere is sexual assault, so he basically outed himself as being guilty or at a minimum promoted it.
 
Raoul said:
She should be fired, which I suspect will happen at some point since ESPN already tried to remove her but changed their minds when her co-host refused to go on without her. The shitstorm won't go away so they are likely to take further action very soon. Once you smear your company's brand with your personal drama there are few paths back to how things were before it happened.

As for calling Trump a white supremacist - anyone who does that is literally demeaning the value of the term when its applied to the likes of David Duke and other actual white supremacists. Its generally a lazy way for people to use a pejorative because they lack the ability to make a more nuanced argument about what is driving Trump's actions.
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What are you waiting for, a cape?

ESPN can fire her for any reason they want, same way Google were well within their rights to fire that Damore chap.
 
Raoul said:
From the 80s until around 2010/11, he was fairly politically liberal (by U.S. standards). I think he made the calculation that he had to create a race-baiting conservative brand in order to gain legitimacy within the Tea Party/conservative movements prior to making a Presidential run. Bannon of course only reinforced this.
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While I'm unsure about the ethics of not calling someone a white supremacist because he's blatantly racist 'only for votes', these racist incidents predate his political career by decades:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...k-five-donald-trump-jogger-rape-case-new-york

http://fortune.com/2016/06/07/donald-trump-racism-quotes/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-get-rid-of-blacks-dont-rent-to-a7583851.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/us/politics/donald-trump-housing-race.html
 
Interesting the call to fire Jemele Hill, when Trump himself called Obama a racist and no one called for NBC to fire him. I guess that's a form of privelidge perhaps.
 
adexkola said:
What are you waiting for, a cape?

ESPN can fire her for any reason they want, same way Google were well within their rights to fire that Damore chap.
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I agree that they can, and eventually will, at which point she will turn up as a host on the View where she can moan about Trump alongside Whoopi and Joy Behar. To illustrate the absurdity of it all, Linda Cohn was suspended for merely suggesting that being political has hurt ESPN's subscription numbers.
 
Raoul said:
He obviously wouldn't have said it if he hadn't done it before. He didn't know it was being recorded so he had no incentive to lie about it. In fact, kissing someone without invitation or grabbing them anywhere is sexual assault, so he basically outed himself as being guilty or at a minimum promoted it.
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Actually, since he didn't know he wasn't being recorded he had all the incentive in the world to lie about it given his personality. One thing we cannot deny about Trump is that he is incredibly childish and has quite the big ego. People like that love to make outrageous comments in order to impress someone in their group, I know people like that. They usually lie about all sorts of things to make themselves look 'manly', 'cool' and 'daring', whatever else you can think of. Often when a man is in a group with other men he often makes mysoginistic comments about women in order to impress his group, whether he means those comments or not. Calling him a sexual offender without any evidence to back it up besides his obvious bravado doesn't seem right.

I'm inclined to agree about the promoting part though, it's certainly a dumb thing to say.
 
Dumat12 said:
Actually, since he didn't know he wasn't being recorded he had all the incentive in the world to lie about it given his personality. One thing we cannot deny about Trump is that he is incredibly childish and has quite the big ego. People like that love to make outrageous comments in order to impress someone in their group, I know people like that. They usually lie about all sorts of things to make themselves look 'manly', 'cool' and 'daring', whatever else you can think of. Often when a man is in a group with other men he often makes mysoginistic comments about women in order to impress his group, whether he means those comments or not. Calling him a sexual offender without any evidence to back it up besides his obvious bravado doesn't seem right.

I'm inclined to agree about the promoting part though, it's certainly a dumb thing to say.
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I would agree with that if his comments were made in public, but given that they were made in private where he had no reason to be deceptive, and also given that such actions corroborate what all his other accusers have said (LINK), there is ample circumstantial evidence that he engaged in various acts of sexual assault. We don't need a polaroid of him getting caught in the act to verify this.
 
Raoul said:
I would agree with that if his comments were made in public, but given that they were made in private where he had no reason to be deceptive
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Umm, actually, given that Trump was a pretty famous personality even back then he has no reasons to make such comments in public because such comments wouldn't be looked at very kindly by the media and people. The most important thing about a businessman is his reputation and Trump's whole business is his reputation and personality. Thus not many people would want themselves to be associated with Trump given the comments he made either because they wouldn't appreaciate the comments themselves or because they would be afraid that the media would scrutinize them, or even both. So his business will suffer and that's not something Trump would want.

and also given that such actions corroborate what all his other accusers have said (LINK), there is ample circumstantial evidence that he engaged in various acts of sexual assault. We don't need a polaroid of him getting caught in the act to verify this.
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The article says that all women that came out forward were after the recording was released to the public. Don't you find that a little odd? This happens often - when a famous or a rich person gets accused of something, unknown people suddenly swarm in large numbers 'confirming' that he did it to them also and how affected they were by it. I can guarantee you that in 99% of these cases these people are vultures just looking for the fame and money and have no relation to the case at all. So unless there are women out there who confirmed what Trump said before the tape was released I wouldn't put much stock into what "thirteen of them within just the past two weeks." said.
 
Dumat12 said:
Umm, actually, given that Trump was a pretty famous personality even back then he has no reasons to make such comments in public because such comments wouldn't be looked at very kindly by the media and people. The most important thing about a businessman is his reputation and Trump's whole business is his reputation and personality. Thus not many people would want themselves to be associated with Trump given the comments he made either because they wouldn't appreaciate the comments themselves or because they would be afraid that the media would scrutinize them, or even both. So his business will suffer and that's not something Trump would want.


The article says that all women that came out forward were after the recording was released to the public. Don't you find that a little odd? This happens often - when a famous or a rich person gets accused of something, unknown people suddenly swarm in large numbers 'confirming' that he did it to them also and how affected they were by it. I can guarantee you that 99% of these people are just looking for the fame and money and have no relation to the case at all. So unless there are women out there who confirmed what Trump said before the tape was released I wouldn't put much stock into what "thirteen of them within just the past two weeks." said.
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I don't actually. Especially given Trump's past history of suing his accusers (not just women, but any accusers including business people who he stiffed on payments) as a means to intimidate them into silence by making them go broke with endless legal fees. Therefore it was generally impractical for a common person to sue him, but it became more realistic when each accuser realized there were many more accusers and that they weren't alone, especially at at a time when a person they deemed a sexual predator was asking citizens to make him President of the United States. It was therefore, the ideal time for all of them to come out.
 
Dumat12 said:
Actually, since he didn't know he wasn't being recorded he had all the incentive in the world to lie about it given his personality. One thing we cannot deny about Trump is that he is incredibly childish and has quite the big ego. People like that love to make outrageous comments in order to impress someone in their group, I know people like that. They usually lie about all sorts of things to make themselves look 'manly', 'cool' and 'daring', whatever else you can think of. Often when a man is in a group with other men he often makes mysoginistic comments about women in order to impress his group, whether he means those comments or not. Calling him a sexual offender without any evidence to back it up besides his obvious bravado doesn't seem right.

I'm inclined to agree about the promoting part though, it's certainly a dumb thing to say.
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I've seen comments like this before, and I wholeheartedly join the men who reply that I have never done that. Speak for yourself.
 
Dumat12 said:
The article says that all women that came out forward were after the recording was released to the public. Don't you find that a little odd? This happens often - when a famous or a rich person gets accused of something, unknown people suddenly swarm in large numbers 'confirming' that he did it to them also and how affected they were by it. I can guarantee you that in 99% of these cases these people are vultures just looking for the fame and money and have no relation to the case at all. So unless there are women out there who confirmed what Trump said before the tape was released I wouldn't put much stock into what "thirteen of them within just the past two weeks." said.
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No There was a man that worked at my place. He was accused of assault by a woman at his next place of work. Then you heard stories from many women where I work saying what he did to them. None of these women had anything to gain form it but told their stories when they realised they weren't alone.
 
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