The RedCafe Boxing Thread

[Raoul]

@Raoul it really depends on the way they do the math. An arena with 80,000 people paying 75% the average cost of a ticket versus an arena that seats 20,000 will still make mega, mega money once concessions are taken into account.

They simply couldn’t justify even a $75 PPV price stateside, people don’t care enough. Would probably come closer to $49.99 and I’m sure sky sports would charge more than £20 for a heavyweight fight that determines the undisputed champ.

All that considered, there’s not enough financial temptation for anyone in Joshua’s camp to make this outside the UK.

Yeah but a vast majority of the income for most big fights comes from PPV, not stadium seating, and the US is the biggest PPV market in the world in terms of boxing and other events.

If the AJ/Wilder fight happens, it would be one of the biggest PPV events ever and would probably generate about 4.5-5m PPV buys at about $100 per buy in the US alone, plus another 700k-1m buy in the UK (Floyd v Conor got 700k PPV buys at 20quid in the UK and Conor isn't even a boxer).

So the question then becomes, how does this fight maximize its earning potential. The answer is by holding it at MSG or the like (east coast USA and only 5 hour time difference to the UK). That way it generates 5.5-6m buys between both the US and UK - or about 600-700m overall between both country PPVs and gate revenue.

There is no way it could generate such numbers in the UK since a massive swath of Americans wont buy a PPV fight that takes place mid afternoon their time. So at the end of the day, Hearn and AJ would be much wealthier (win or lose) if they made the fight happen in the States.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Yeah but a vast majority of the income for most big fights comes from PPV, not stadium seating, and the US is the biggest PPV market in the world in terms of boxing and other events.

If the AJ/Wilder fight happens, it would be one of the biggest PPV events ever and would probably generate about 4.5-5m PPV buys at about $100 per buy in the US alone, plus another 700k-1m buy in the UK (Floyd v Conor got 700k PPV buys at 20quid in the UK and Conor isn't even a boxer).

So the question then becomes, how does this fight maximize its earning potential. The answer is by holding it at MSG or the like (east coast USA and only 5 hour time difference to the UK). That way it generates 5.5-6m buys between both the US and UK - or about 600-700m overall between both country PPVs and gate revenue.

There is no way it could generate such numbers in the UK since a massive swath of Americans wont buy a PPV fight that takes place mid afternoon their time. So at the end of the day, Hearn and AJ would be much wealthier (win or lose) if they made the fight happen in the States.

For that to happen, it would need to be legitimately the best marketing of all time.

Mcgregor v mayweather captured the globes attention significantlymore than a Joshua wilder fight could even hope for.

The highest grossing fights usually feature an American that America cares about. Wilder is so far away from that and save for a drastic rise to celebrity status, he ain’t getting there.

 

[Raoul]

For that to happen, it would need to be legitimately the best marketing of all time.

Mcgregor v mayweather captured the globes attention significantlymore than a Joshua wilder fight could even hope for.

The highest grossing fights usually feature an American that America cares about. Wilder is so far away from that and save for a drastic rise to celebrity status, he ain’t getting there.

This would be the biggest heavyweight fight in decades and other than Mayweather, the HW division is really what draws people who otherwise may not care, towards boxing. Its also easier to market a fight in the US than elsewhere since most of the media are located here, and as such, can generate much more hype than anywhere else. I can also see multiple fights taking place between these two so there will be more chances to hold events in different countries as well.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

This would be the biggest heavyweight fight in decades and other than Mayweather, the HW division is really what draws people who otherwise may not care, towards boxing. Its also easier to market a fight in the US than elsewhere since most of the media are located here, and as such, can generate much more hype than anywhere else. I can also see multiple fights taking place between these two so there will be more chances to hold events in different countries as well.

Hard to tell really if the HW division still has that hold. It’s very much a generational thing. When the HW division was at its best, the average age of the current attendee at boxing events would have been between 10-15. Whether that generation cares enough to help push this fight into a new marketing stratosphere remains to be seen.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Who would be the favourite between AJ and Wilder?

So for my noob questions. I'm more of an MMA guy and only tune into boxing for the big fights.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Who would be the favourite between AJ and Wilder?

So for my noob questions. I'm more of an MMA guy and only tune into boxing for the big fights.

Probably AJ at this moment in time, not by the biggest margin though.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Random question but does a boxer get a new belt every time he defends it?

i assumed they just kept it and a new one was given when the reigning champ got beat. Reason i ask is i saw a pic of floyd with a table full of belts so assumed he got a new one with each defence.

in the UFC yes, they get given a replica belt to keep every time they defend the title. Not sure if the same applies for boxing though.

 

[No11]

Don't believe everything you hear from Sky's end. Wilders camp come out with the same shite over in the US on national television. It's par for the course in boxing to make the other party look like they don't want the fight when it is generally an argument over how the money is split or where the fight will take place etc. I'm sure both fighters want it but their teams will be arguing over the usual stuff wanting their cut of the money.

nail on head, I have a feeling Hearn will milk this big time.
He has way too much influence for my liking.
Can see Hearn pushing for Joshua- Povetkin & Whyte-Wilder.

No time for the man at all, its all about the money.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Don't believe everything you hear from Sky's end. Wilders camp come out with the same shite over in the US on national television. It's par for the course in boxing to make the other party look like they don't want the fight when it is generally an argument over how the money is split or where the fight will take place etc. I'm sure both fighters want it but their teams will be arguing over the usual stuff wanting their cut of the money.

It’s evident that AJ is trying to become the undisputed champion, he wants that belt, clearly to get it he needs Wilder to step up. I think if there is fabrication of events it’s most likely on the Wilder end. For the life of me I don’t understand his decision to not be there last night. Absolutely ridiculous. Maybe he didn’t fancy the heat that would have been on him with Whyte and AJ being there. Not only them either, Povotkin and Parker will surely be intrested parties.
Anyway, Joshua needs the fight this year, has said as much as if Wilder doesn’t want to fight then the likely hood is AJ will have to drop a belt and that is not what he wants. From the outside the one ducking clearly looks like Wilder.
@No11

Anyway we’ll see what happens as it’s been made clear by Hearn and AJ that they want Wilder. Does Wilder want AJ?

 

[Revan]

It’s evident that AJ is trying to become the undisputed champion, he wants that belt, clearly to get it he needs Wilder to step up. I think if there is fabrication of events it’s most likely on the Wilder end. For the life of me I don’t understand his decision to not be there last night. Absolutely ridiculous. Maybe he didn’t fancy the heat that would have been on him with Whyte and AJ being there. Not only them either, Povotkin and Parker will surely be intrested parties.
Anyway, Joshua needs the fight this year, has said as much as if Wilder doesn’t want to fight then the likely hood is AJ will have to drop a belt and that is not what he wants. From the outside the one ducking clearly looks like Wilder.
@No11

Anyway we’ll see what happens as it’s been made clear by Hearn and AJ that they want Wilder. Does Wilder want AJ?

Why?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Why?

Mandatory’s will be called if Wilder won’t do 2018, that’s the problem.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Why?

Because he has all the belts and they need to be defended. He already has a mandatory called for one of the belts, the other one probably isn’t far behind so either the fight with Wilder happens later this year or AJ has to fight 4 other guys before he can get around to fighting Wilder again. Or he can drop one of the belts fight Wilder then go after that belt again.


Watch at 13minutes 40 secs.

 

[Balljy]

Because he has all the belts and they need to be defended. He already has a mandatory called for one of the belts, the other one probably isn’t far behind so either the fight with Wilder happens later this year or AJ has to fight 4 other guys before he can get around to fighting Wilder again. Or he can drop one of the belts fight Wilder then go after that belt again.


Watch at 13minutes 40 secs.

I reckon Joshua will go for a mandatory with Povetkin before seriously going after Wilder. Povetkin will probably be the mandatory for two of the belts and is probably the right fight for him at the moment. Being able to use the excuse of it being a mandatory will make too much sense to turn it down.

 

[Paxi]

Who would be the favourite between AJ and Wilder?

So for my noob questions. I'm more of an MMA guy and only tune into boxing for the big fights.

I'd say Joshua with a massive caveat - if Joshua eats one of Wilder's bombs - itll be good night Vienna.

So what I'm saying is -- feck knows!!

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I reckon Joshua will go for a mandatory with Povetkin before seriously going after Wilder. Povetkin will probably be the mandatory for two of the belts and is probably the right fight for him at the moment. Being able to use the excuse of it being a mandatory will make too much sense to turn it down.

Excuse? Povetkin will be a much tougher fight that Wilder for me and one AJ could lose.

The lesser risk is becoming undisputed vs. Wilder.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I reckon Joshua will go for a mandatory with Povetkin before seriously going after Wilder. Povetkin will probably be the mandatory for two of the belts and is probably the right fight for him at the moment. Being able to use the excuse of it being a mandatory will make too much sense to turn it down.

He looks as if he is now and has previously been seriously going after Wilder. Even mentions in the video about flying to America to sit them down and see if they are serious. Problem is if Wilder doesn’t want it this year is that Joshua is going to have to fight a mandatory then after that he’ll probably have another 2 or 3 he has to fight before he can get back around to Wilder or he either drops belts and hopes Wilder steps up. The issue is Wilder, AJ wants it, but does Wilder.

Wilder either is hanging on for a massive pay day or he really just doesn’t want it. But really AJ is the power player and Wilder should be beating down his door to get the fight. Wilder brings very little to the table, if he was a big name in America and selling out places then it would be different.

Like others have also said Povetkin is probably the harder fight.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

Povetkin is a more dangerous fight for Joshua than Wilder is, in my opinion. I don't buy into the Wilder hype at all. Crude, sloppy, shitty technique and chinny.

6'7 and he weighs less than David Haye.

EDIT I see I agree with Reg.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I'd say Joshua with a massive caveat - if Joshua eats one of Wilder's bombs - itll be good night Vienna.

So what I'm saying is -- feck knows!!

Agreed but on the other side of that, if wilder eats a AJ bomb then it’s good night Vienna. It’s what makes it intresting. Both are vulnerable Just Joshua looks a much better boxer and Wilder is well wild and open to being hit.

 

[Balljy]

Excuse? Povetkin will be a much tougher fight that Wilder for me and one AJ could lose.

The lesser risk is becoming undisputed vs. Wilder.

I would have said that up to a couple of years ago. At 38 years old he looks on the slide to me and Joshua could aim for a plan similar to last nights where he uses the jab and waits for Povetkin to lose energy. Against Wilder he is always going to be in danger from that one shot.

In last nights fight even Price had him in trouble for a bit. I know what you're saying though - not an easy fight.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

wilder simply doesn’t have that big of a following.

Not by the American public so much but Wilder's career has been followed by the powers that be in US boxing for years. It also doesn't take much for casual boxing fans to jump on the bandwagon. If that fight was made in Vegas (and it should be), it would do big numbers. US vs UK, replete with a heavy marketing campaign involving all the top fighters in the industry.

Joshua fighting in the US makes sense. It'll move his career to the next level (if he wins).

 

[Paxi]

Agreed but on the other side of that, if wilder eats a AJ bomb then it’s good night Vienna. It’s what makes it intresting. Both are vulnerable Just Joshua looks a much better boxer and Wilder is well wild and open to being hit.

If Wilder were to win I predict that it would be Joshua catching him and going for a combo but since Wilder has so much stopping power I think AJ could just walk into one of his counters. Otherwise AJ is more refined as a boxed than Wilder but not to the point where he'll just close the distance and beat him into a corner. Anyway, no way the fight goes the distance. I'd bet my house on it.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Not by the American public so much but Wilder's career has been followed by the powers that be in US boxing for years. It also doesn't take much for casual boxing fans to jump on the bandwagon. If that fight was made in Vegas (and it should be), it would do big numbers. US vs UK, replete with a heavy marketing campaign involving all the top fighters in the industry.

Joshua fighting in the US makes sense. It'll move his career to the next level (if he wins).

It would have to be a colossal marketing campaign, not saying it can’t happen but wilder is just not popular enough right now to even contemplate a fight that can put more than $50m in his bank.

 

[pascell]

If he used the same game plan as last night, I think Joshua would probably beat Povetkin. All Joshua would need to do is use his reach advantage, stay behind his jab and counter well.

Povetkin would have lost last night if Price had 10-15 seconds more when Price rocked him.

 

[ivaldo]

Not by the American public so much but Wilder's career has been followed by the powers that be in US boxing for years. It also doesn't take much for casual boxing fans to jump on the bandwagon. If that fight was made in Vegas (and it should be), it would do big numbers. US vs UK, replete with a heavy marketing campaign involving all the top fighters in the industry.

Joshua fighting in the US makes sense. It'll move his career to the next level (if he wins).

It would be a big fight because of Joshua though; he's the real pull in the heacyweight division at the moment.

It's says a lot that we have an American champion here with a record of 40-0 that's still fighting in front of 5/6 thousand. He reminds me of Arthur Abraham to an extent. Impressive record fighting in his home country but without any real names on his record. When he was eventually practically forced to step outside his comfort zone he was exposed. I can see the same happening with Wilder.

 

[simonhch]

The thing is, the division isn't the best, clearly. Building hype around it is a challenge. Now that they have a real sense of momentum and interest over a Joshua - Wilder showdown, they have to strike a balance between drawing it out, and not letting it go stale. After the Wilder fight, there aren't many places to go. Except rematches.

With regards to Joshua, I cannot understand a lot of the criticism he gets on here. Firstly, he has moved very quickly through the division. Secondly, every step of the way he's confounded what people said he couldn't do. When he was truly tested, against a quality fighter in Klitschko, he came through. An important stepping stone in his learning process. Last night's fight wasn't much of a spectacle, but I think he needed that fight. He didn't allow himself to get frustrated, and was technically improved on previous performances. He is showing maturity. At the end of the day, he can only beat who is put in front of him. But for what's it's worth, I think he is by far the best heavyweight in the division.

If he had fought in another era, it is open to speculation how he would have done against the likes of Holyfield, Tyson, Bowe, and Lewis. But I think it's the sort of competition that could have taken him up another level. As it stands, he is some way off their standards but then again I think we are still some ways off from peak AJ.

 

[Fortitude]

Have watched pretty much every big fight (not including sub 140 fights) taken place in the last 20 years or so. I am saying that Joshua should have win but by 10/11 round no fecking way. Rounds 5 and 6 were clear from Parker, and neither boxer showed anything at all in the first 4 round. Round 7 again was close as was round 8. Joshua had his silent domination in the last 4 rounds and deserved to get them by virtue of staying in the center, but I just hate this way of scoring when every even round goes to the same boxer. Here it didn't change anything, but it robbed Kovalev from titles, and it stole the victory from GGG.

No it didn't.

 

[GeorgieBoy]

No it didn't.

You not think GGG won that one? And Kovalev-Ward was a bit dodgy for me too.

 

[Fortitude]

You not think GGG won that one? And Kovalev-Ward was a bit dodgy for me too.

It's always going to come down to what you consider scoring blows, but to say either of them ws "robbed" or had a decision "stolen" from them is ridiculous. GGG was a close affair; Ward is/was a point-scoring monster and aggression can easily be mstaken for effectiveness when no pts are actually being accumulated... nothing was stolen from Kovalev.

 

[GeorgieBoy]

It's always going to come down to what you consider scoring blows, but to say either of them ws "robbed" or had a decision "stolen" from them is ridiculous. GGG was a close affair; Ward is/was a point-scoring monster and aggression can easily be mstaken for effectiveness when no pts are actually being accumulated... nothing was stolen from Kovalev.

Yeah I sort of agree with that, you could make a case for either GGG/Canelo in that fight (I had GGG), but the the scoring was horrific and there was definitely some element of foul play involved there. Can't remember fully the Ward-Kovelev fight so correct me if I'm wrong but the first was close, and the second was stopped after a Ward below the belt shot?

 

[RedFish]

Yeah I sort of agree with that, you could make a case for either GGG/Canelo in that fight (I had GGG), but the the scoring was horrific and there was definitely some element of foul play involved there. Can't remember fully the Ward-Kovelev fight so correct me if I'm wrong but the first was close, and the second was stopped after a Ward below the belt shot?

Been done to death at the time, but yeah, the first fight wasn't even close for most, I had at 116-112 for Kovalev. the 2nd fight Ward was ahead at the time of the stoppage. Kovalev was out hustled in the 2nd fight, and missed his opportunity. He should've fought fire with fire and made it ugly. Instead, he lost his will and the fight.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I don’t have an issue with Joshua. I think he comes across extremely well in all interviews. I’ve a friend who directed a commercial he featured in, and they spent a fair bit of time with him away from the camera and said he’s as down to earth as it gets. Actually, I like him a lot more than any other person in conmbat sports after Gennady Golovkin.

What makes it hard for me to really get behind him is success for him means success for the people attached to him and a few of those people are absolute cretins of society. It’s why I’d rather he Experiences a loss and decided to shake things up behind the scenes and keep the people close to him who are in it for Joshua and not to line their own pockets.

 

[GeorgieBoy]

I don’t have an issue with Joshua. I think he comes across extremely well in all interviews. I’ve a friend who directed a commercial he featured in, and they spent a fair bit of time with him away from the camera and said he’s as down to earth as it gets. Actually, I like him a lot more than any other person in conmbat sports after Gennady Golovkin.

What makes it hard for me to really get behind him is success for him means success for the people attached to him and a few of those people are absolute cretins of society. It’s why I’d rather he Experiences a loss and decided to shake things up behind the scenes and keep the people close to him who are in it for Joshua and not to line their own pockets.

Eddie Hearn?

 

[Raoul]

Povetkin is a more dangerous fight for Joshua than Wilder is, in my opinion. I don't buy into the Wilder hype at all. Crude, sloppy, shitty technique and chinny.

6'7 and he weighs less than David Haye.

EDIT I see I agree with Reg.

Povetkin would be a tough opponent for AJ. Not sure who would win that TBH....but then again AJ is a dozen or so years younger and would likely do to him what Klitschko did. Knock him down a few times and win on points.

As for Wilder, its obvious he has an unconventional style that doesn't sit well with "purists" who view AJ as a "complete boxer". That of course would all mean little if Wilder connects once.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Povetkin would be a tough opponent for AJ. Not sure who would win that TBH....but then again AJ is a dozen or so years younger and would likely do to him what Klitschko did. Knock him down a few times and win on points.

As for Wilder, its obvious he has an unconventional style that doesn't sit well with "purists" who view AJ as a "complete boxer". That of course would all mean little if Wilder connects once.

Yup, which is why Joshua’s performance could be construed as confusing last night. AJ never looked in danger of getting sparked out, and If I was wilder I’d be thinking feck, the guy knows how to stay behind his jab and avoid my bombs. If AJ has focussed more on getting Parker out of there, wilder might like his chances more of catching him with one of those shots of his.

Got to love Joshua’s words though;

“ A great hook will take you round the corner, a great jab will take you round the world”

 

[Raoul]

Yup, which is why Joshua’s performance could be construed as confusing last night. AJ never looked in danger of getting sparked out, and If I was wilder I’d be thinking feck, the guy knows how to stay behind his jab and avoid my bombs. If AJ has focussed more on getting Parker out of there, wilder might like his chances more of catching him with one of those shots of his.

Got to love Joshua’s words though;

“ A great hook will take you round the corner, a great jab will take you round the world”

Both fighters will no doubt come in with different strategies than they had with Ortiz and Parker respectively. I doubt Wilder will be content to absorb 5-6 rounds of pressure from AJ as he did with Ortiz and Washington and I doubt AJ will be content jabbing his way to success v Wilder since both have the same reach. At the end of the day (imo) it will come down to who can connect. If Wilder makes the same connection as Klitschko did in round 5 then there will be no recovery for AJ.

 

[SambaBoy]

Whyte v Povetkin close to being confirmed. Massive fight for Whyte with Povetkin being AJ's mandatory. He's a great test for anyone and tough one to predict.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Whyte v Povetkin close to being confirmed. Massive fight for Whyte with Povetkin being AJ's mandatory. He's a great test for anyone and tough one to predict.

Sauce?

Source?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Compubox stats by round

Parker out landed overall in every round, out jabbed in every round and out landed with power shots in 8 of 12 rounds.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

As for Wilder, its obvious he has an unconventional style that doesn't sit well with "purists" who view AJ as a "complete boxer". That of course would all mean little if Wilder connects once.

I don’t think i’d Say it’s even his unorthodox style, it’s just that looking at it, he’s off balance most of the time, open to shots most of the time and jumps in throwing huge looping punches. All these things should get him seriously hurt, actually the man doesn’t even seem to turn over the glove properly when hitting,seems to slap a lot but then 40 ko’s, that’s incredible for someone who looks like Just some guy off the street who has never boxed. He is obviously the hardest hitting heavyweight there is, no doubt about it.

I think in a way the way he boxes is probably due to how much ground or distance he covers, like he springs attacks, from quite far away with his reach and ganglyness but will be intresting to see how he does with a guy of compatible size and power.

The best punch I’ve seen him throw was his knock out vs Sprazza(I think that’s his name) it’s a tight right hook as Sprazza comes in, it’s actually a thing of beauty.

As for Joshua, he is by no means a complete boxer, he just has better fundamentals currently than Wilder. If I’m fighting wilder I’m inviting him to spring in and as he does I’m stepping towards him and out to the side throwing a hook.

 

[Verbalkint]

Props to Joseph Parker - he came out strong, didn't get hurt, fought with distinct disadvantages and did well. First guy to take AJ all the way..i think the granite chin is legit. He ate a few blows and they didn't stagger him. Classy showing post fight too.

As for AJ, i think he pulled a Lennox on this one. Stayed away, used his reach and height advantage and played it safe and cool. No harm in that whatsoever, he fought a good disciplined fight.

I think he'll end up fighting Fury next.