The RedCafe Boxing Thread

Mciahel Goodman said:
Also a 22 year old Canelo and Hatton undefeated in 44? professional fights. He fought what was in front of him. You can't diminish his achievements. I think he'd have beaten Pacquiao in 2009.

Mayweather is definitely the most intelligent fighter I've ever seen. His ring IQ is ridiculous. Not even human.

He's up there with Duran and Leonard imo, but probably behind both.
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You absolutely can disagree that he is top 10 of all time though. The Canelo fight was a good win but he is no ATG yet and the catchweight was typical Mayweather. Canelo's stomach was concave at the weigh in! Marquez is another but he is an ATG lightweight rather than welterweight.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
You absolutely can disagree that he is top 10 of all time though. The Canelo fight was a good win but he is no ATG yet and the catchweight was typical Mayweather. Canelo's stomach was concave at the weigh in! Marquez is another but he is an ATG lightweight rather than welterweight.
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I agree that it's all subjective, but I think a lot of people (maybe not you) tend to diminish his achievements because of the way Floyd is. His arrogance puts people off. Mixed with his defensive style, he has a lot of people who just hate him and don't want to acknowledge his ability.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
I agree that it's all subjective, but I think a lot of people (maybe not you) tend to diminish his achievements because of the way Floyd is. His arrogance puts people off. Mixed with his defensive style, he has a lot of people who just hate him and don't want to acknowledge his ability.
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You know that Canelo didn't even make 154lbs after that fight ever again. In his next fight with Angulo he had to negotiat for the limit to be lifted to 155lbs near the fight as he couldn't get down and then he had one more fight contracted at 155lbs before going to 160lbs. Mayweather killed Canelo before he even got in the ring. I give him big credit for the way he negotiated his fights in the later days, he controlled all the variables. He was smart inside and outside of the ring.
 
This kind of proves where it's all a bit pointless debating an all time great list though?

People of your era (i.e. Floyd) have a huge disadvantage over boxers who's career and in some cases their life ended about 50-60 years before any of us were even born. Just here Mayweather's opponents are being scrutinised discussing struggles to make weight, politicing etc. The older generation boxers won't get that scrutiny it's seemingly just accepted that what people read about them is true. I reckon history will be kinder to Floyd and a load more current generation athletes than we are now.
 
Freedom Aluteni said:
Now we can finally look forward to the real fight of the year. GGG vs Canelo. Am I the only one who thinks this is a mismatch and GGG will expose Canelo? Can't see a scenario where Canelo wins.
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I'd be stunned if it was a blowout. Canelo has improved a lot in the last 18-24 months and he is an excellent counter puncher and throws in combinations. Those are excellent tools to have in a fight where GGG will likely be the aggressor. I think if Golovkin can get his jab working and setting up a lot of attacks off of it then he can have it easier than the bookies suspect but I suspect both will have their moments.

I'm picking GGG and I favor him around 70-30. FWIW I went to the LA public workouts yesterday and physically Canelo is looking very strong and his speed looks explosive.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
He doesn't compare to other all time greats, he never even fought an ATG fighter in their prime. His signature wins were against De La Hoya (well past it), Pacquiao (well past it) and Corrales (a good but not great fighter in the context of history). Enough said.
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I agree. I think the dust has to settle and perhaps over time I may change him on my list but I'm not getting caught up as a prisoner of the moment. I just think 20 years from now his best wins won't stack up with most all-time greats and though his 0 is excellent I can't go crazy ranking Calzaghe, Lopez, Marciano either. Also, knowing how he maneuvered around certain fights at certain times. That may be forgotten (for right or wrong) with time but for me it's still fresh in the memory.
 
Good action signed for October 14th -

Leo Santa Cruz and Abner Mares in separate bouts in the afternoon presumably building towards a 2018 unification re-match.

Then SHOWTIME triple header - Jermell Charlo vs. Erickson Lubin main event - great fight, Charlo is a good champion and Lubin a genuine blue chip prospect
Jarrett Hurd vs. Austin Trout and Erislandy Lara vs. Terrell Gausha.

That's all the 154-pound belts (barring Cotto's) on display so possibly someone here in Kell Brook's or Amir Khan's future. I like Hurd quite a lot I think he's an exciting fighter improving constantly. Lara is boring, but still probably the pick of the division even if he hasn't really fought anyone in years.

November 4th they are working on Wilder against Luis Ortiz. I'd pick Ortiz with a lot of conviction in that one.
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
Good action signed for October 14th -

Leo Santa Cruz and Abner Mares in separate bouts in the afternoon presumably building towards a 2018 unification re-match.

Then SHOWTIME triple header - Jermell Charlo vs. Erickson Lubin main event - great fight, Charlo is a good champion and Lubin a genuine blue chip prospect
Jarrett Hurd vs. Austin Trout and Erislandy Lara vs. Terrell Gausha.

That's all the 154-pound belts (barring Cotto's) on display so possibly someone here in Kell Brook's or Amir Khan's future. I like Hurd quite a lot I think he's an exciting fighter improving constantly. Lara is boring, but still probably the pick of the division even if he hasn't really fought anyone in years.

November 4th they are working on Wilder against Luis Ortiz. I'd pick Ortiz with a lot of conviction in that one.
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I'll take that action with Wilder. $10 to the Caf? And no way in hell would either of the Brits stand a chance in that division. I'd still back Cotto, at his age, to beat Brook. Man should've retired after the Spence fight. Khan has and always had no business fighting above 140 tbh.
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
Also, against a very good fighter with a totally different style and mentality. Jacobs was happy to go 12 and gain a moral victory. Canelo wants an actual victory.
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It's a very exciting fight. Both fighters don't know anything else other than seek and destroy. Canelo can outbox people, and has done so in the past, but he's at his best when brawling. GGG is also a brawler, but can be technical if he has to be. I'm expecting a nervous opening round, and a KO within 6-8.

Heart says GGG, head say Canelo.
 
Kazi said:
Do you honestly believe that?
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Having followed him since 2009, it's probably biased but there have been a few people both In his camp and out with that felt looking less than impressive in a fight would work In his favour for a mega fight, and it kinda has.
 
Arbitrium said:
Having followed him since 2009, it's probably biased but there have been a few people both In his camp and out with that felt looking less than impressive in a fight would work In his favour for a mega fight, and it kinda has.
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For sure, they were not queuing up to fight him that's for sure. I really hope GGG wins, and I think he will. His boxing is underestimated, partly because he doesn't give a damn taking a punch to get to his man, and because he's just so goddamn powerful. Kovalev let me down lol, GGG won't!

When he needs to take care, he does (Lemieux) so I've faith he'll do the business. TKO round 6-9 for me.
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
Also, against a very good fighter with a totally different style and mentality. Jacobs was happy to go 12 and gain a moral victory. Canelo wants an actual victory.
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Agree with that. Jacobs was clearly very wary of GGG, and I must admit I thought he did superbly well and thought he edged it at the time. More me scoring Jacobs more than I should have perhaps, with GGG not his usual self. Canelo being more game will work against him. I thought Cotto was superior to him, just lacked the power to hurt him. GGG might just dominate Canelo.
 
RedFish said:
For sure, they were not queuing up to fight him that's for sure. I really hope GGG wins, and I think he will. His boxing is underestimated, partly because he doesn't give a damn taking a punch to get to his man, and because he's just so goddamn powerful. Kovalev let me down lol, GGG won't!

When he needs to take care, he does (Lemieux) so I've faith he'll do the business. TKO round 6-9 for me.
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His boxing is only underestimated by those who can't analyze it right. His punching technique is a thing of beauty, and he's openly admitted to leaving his chin sticking out sometimes to give opponents a look and make it a more exciting fight. It's not his fault that he can walk through 99% of middleweight contenders in the world.
 
Arbitrium said:
His boxing is only underestimated by those who can't analyze it right. His punching technique is a thing of beauty, and he's openly admitted to leaving his chin sticking out sometimes to give opponents a look and make it a more exciting fight. It's not his fault that he can walk through 99% of middleweight contenders in the world.
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and he's a master of cutting off the ring.......Hope he seals his reputation in this fight.
 
I'd say GGG has excellent feet, great timing and obviously fight altering power. His punch selection is great too and he is an expert at applying mental pressure. I don't think his head movement or defense is anything more than good though. Luckily, he's backed up by a top notch chin.

If your beating him your special IMO.
 
You all know what's 1 and 2. That lead left hook could work vs GGG who is fairly easy to hit at that level tbf.

 
Arbitrium said:
Having followed him since 2009, it's probably biased but there have been a few people both In his camp and out with that felt looking less than impressive in a fight would work In his favour for a mega fight, and it kinda has.
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Come on man, you can't honestly believe he deliberately underperformed in an attempt to get a big money fight. You're giving him way too much credit IMO.
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
Skills and talent he's very high, resume he's a bit lacking of the absolute greatest. I say anywhere from 30-50 is a fair ranking. I personally did my top 100 all-time recently (it's in this thread) and placed him 45. I think had he fought Pacquaio around 2010-2012 and won clearly and taken on a few more challenges at the right time he could have been top 25-30.
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Yeah Al Bernstein puts him no higher than 25.
 
Kazi said:
Come on man, you can't honestly believe he deliberately underperformed in an attempt to get a big money fight. You're giving him way too much credit IMO.
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I agree. That's them saving face IMO since it was in two fights he was expected to just win without getting hit in return. I don't doubt that he got careless because he was in total control but nobody gets hit on purpose - apart from Ricardo Mayorga because he's mental.
 
Theres no chance GGG underperformed on purpose. I also don't buy he's on the wane just yet either due to the Jacobs fight, it was simply a tough fight.

GGG/Canelo is so hype though. Can't wait. It's pretty much the right time, as Canelo has had the time to become a MW and GGG shouldn't be on the decline just yet, but possibly.

Is it Boxnation or SBO in the UK btw?
 
Zen said:
Theres no chance GGG underperformed on purpose. I also don't buy he's on the wane just yet either due to the Jacobs fight, it was simply a tough fight.

GGG/Canelo is so hype though. Can't wait. It's pretty much the right time, as Canelo has had the time to become a MW and GGG shouldn't be on the decline just yet, but possibly.

Is it Boxnation or SBO in the UK btw?
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Boxnation
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
I'd be stunned if it was a blowout. Canelo has improved a lot in the last 18-24 months and he is an excellent counter puncher and throws in combinations. Those are excellent tools to have in a fight where GGG will likely be the aggressor. I think if Golovkin can get his jab working and setting up a lot of attacks off of it then he can have it easier than the bookies suspect but I suspect both will have their moments.

I'm picking GGG and I favor him around 70-30. FWIW I went to the LA public workouts yesterday and physically Canelo is looking very strong and his speed looks explosive.
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Apparently GGG had a gut on him? Was that the case? I couldn't quite make it out from the footage I watched. I think Canelo will carry the speed up well but I believe Golovkins ring IQ and jab will limit what Canelo can get off. Just hope that golovkin hasn't physically dipped. The current arguments that he looked poor in his last 2 fights don't stack up for me; he had no regard for brooks power and thus accepted being hit to make an entertaining fight, of course brook will look fast against a middle weight, the only reason he was being questioned in this fight. And against Jacobs, who was very athletic and an excellent boxer who ran all night, Golovkin still out boxed him and put on masterclass and imo won almost every round and outlanded Jacobs in every round. I advise anyone who questions the result to rewatch and possibly in slow mo to see the nouse and craft in his defense and general boxing ability in this fight, very impressive.

The only reason I have doubts about his physicality is the fact he is 35 and the dip is imminent.

Would love it if he comes out 100% and if he does Canelo won't be able to use head movement and counter punching for 12 rounds because his foot work isn't good enough to avoid the onslaught and golovkin will wear him down and suffocate him leading to a late KO.
 
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Canelo vs GGG HBO 24/7. You will need a vpn to watch it though (unless you are in the US)


Regarding the fight, I think Canelo will win but at the same time would not be shocked if GGG won. GGG's last few fights have concerned me whereas Canelo has improved so much. If he was to fight Mayweather now he would beat him IMHO.
 
JoaquinJoaquin said:
Canelo vs GGG HBO 24/7. You will need a vpn to watch it though (unless you are in the US)


Regarding the fight, I think Canelo will win but at the same time would not be shocked if GGG won. GGG's last few fights have concerned me whereas Canelo has improved so much. If he was to fight Mayweather now he would beat him IMHO.
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I agree he'll win but I dunno about the last bit.

His last 3 fights have been a bit of a joke (Khan isn't a middleweight, Smith is nowhere near his level and Chavez Jr is awful.) I think he'll win due to timing of the fight...Golovkin hasn't looked great in his last few as well and I think it'll come down to an age factor more than anything. Canelo's team have been putting off this fight until the ideal opportunity.
 
Oggmonster said:
I agree he'll win but I dunno about the last bit.

His last 3 fights have been a bit of a joke (Khan isn't a middleweight, Smith is nowhere near his level and Chavez Jr is awful.) I think he'll win due to timing of the fight...Golovkin hasn't looked great in his last few as well and I think it'll come down to an age factor more than anything. Canelo's team have been putting off this fight until the ideal opportunity.
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Agree about the timing thing. Ideally this fight should of been a year ago or January at the latest.
 
Oggmonster said:
I agree he'll win but I dunno about the last bit.

His last 3 fights have been a bit of a joke (Khan isn't a middleweight, Smith is nowhere near his level and Chavez Jr is awful.) I think he'll win due to timing of the fight...Golovkin hasn't looked great in his last few as well and I think it'll come down to an age factor more than anything. Canelo's team have been putting off this fight until the ideal opportunity.
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When didn't he look great?

Please watch this


He put on a boxing master class against an excellent opponent in Jacobs, considering Jacobs goal was to run and not get knocked out he still hit the canvas and outclassed him the entirety of the fight. Coupled with the fact Jacobs opted against the IBF weigh in before the fight to ensure he had a maximum weight advantage it was like golovkin was fighting a cruiser weight in there.

My point is that he performed excellently in a technical boxing match up.
 
Fergies Formula said:
When didn't he look great?

Please watch this


He put on a boxing master class against an excellent opponent in Jacobs, considering Jacobs goal was to run and not get knocked out he still hit the canvas and outclassed him the entirety of the fight. Coupled with the fact Jacobs opted against the IBF weigh in before the fight to ensure he had a maximum weight advantage it was like golovkin was fighting a cruiser weight in there.

My point is that he performed excellently in a technical boxing match up.
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Each to their own, I don't think he was brilliant in that fight and it wasn't as explosive as previous fights. The fight with Brook was a joke to (similar to Khan vs. Canelo) if that was another boxer who wasn't as well liked and they fought someone in a completely different weight class they'd be slated for it.
 
Fergies Formula said:
Apparently GGG had a gut on him? Was that the case? I couldn't quite make it out from the footage I watched. I think Canelo will carry the speed up well but I believe Golovkins ring IQ and jab will limit what Canelo can get off. Just hope that golovkin hasn't physically dipped. The current arguments that he looked poor in his last 2 fights don't stack up for me; he had no regard for brooks power and thus accepted being hit to make an entertaining fight, of course brook will look fast against a middle weight, the only reason he was being questioned in this fight. And against Jacobs, who was very athletic and an excellent boxer who ran all night, Golovkin still out boxed him and put on masterclass and imo won almost every round and outlanded Jacobs in every round. I advise anyone who questions the result to rewatch and possibly in slow mo to see the nouse and craft in his defense and general boxing ability in this fight, very impressive.

The only reason I have doubts about his physicality is the fact he is 35 and the dip is imminent.

Would love it if he comes out 100% and if he does Canelo won't be able to use head movement and counter punching for 12 rounds because his foot work isn't good enough to avoid the onslaught and golovkin will wear him down and suffocate him leading to a late KO.
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I think he looks a little soft (at least compared to Canelo) around the mid section but he's usually not solid around his stomach area in other fights. His back and arms do look bigger. By the way both look physically bigger than previously that suggests that perhaps both are anticipating a very physical close quarters fight.

The Jacobs fight baffles me. Watching live I saw GGG win clearly 116-111 but accepted that there were enough close rounds that 115-112 was fair. Even bending over backwards it was 114-113 (because of the knockdown). Watched it two more times the following week and had it 117-110 or 116-111. 115-112 was giving Jacobs EVERYTHING. Golovkin looked solid, but unspectacular but that's to be expected when the opponent wasn't really committing to anything and really came to spoil more than to win. Jacobs has been a sore loser over that fight and instead trying to fight again has gone around tried to con the public into believing he won. I think people were so used to seeing GGG blow everyone out they just assumed he was losing because he wasn't smashing him.

I do think he may have hit a wall though and sense a little bit of slippage but enough for Canelo to take advantage? I guess we'll find out soon enough but I suspect Golovkin will be fine and will win an entertaining and competitive fight.
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
I think he looks a little soft (at least compared to Canelo) around the mid section but he's usually not solid around his stomach area in other fights. His back and arms do look bigger. By the way both look physically bigger than previously that suggests that perhaps both are anticipating a very physical close quarters fight.

The Jacobs fight baffles me. Watching live I saw GGG win clearly 116-111 but accepted that there were enough close rounds that 115-112 was fair. Even bending over backwards it was 114-113 (because of the knockdown). Watched it two more times the following week and had it 117-110 or 116-111. 115-112 was giving Jacobs EVERYTHING. Golovkin looked solid, but unspectacular but that's to be expected when the opponent wasn't really committing to anything and really came to spoil more than to win. Jacobs has been a sore loser over that fight and instead trying to fight again has gone around tried to con the public into believing he won. I think people were so used to seeing GGG blow everyone out they just assumed he was losing because he wasn't smashing him.

I do think he may have hit a wall though and sense a little bit of slippage but enough for Canelo to take advantage? I guess we'll find out soon enough but I suspect Golovkin will be fine and will win an entertaining and competitive fight.
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That worries me a little especially when this is the pinnacle of his legacy and if he loses there really is no coming back from that. Is he taking this fight seriously enough, carrying fat around the stomach at this stage isn't great.. he didn't used to have those kind of issues. I am sure the fight will be at close proximity.

Jacobs was embarrassing after he final bell, dropping to his knees, disputing the decision, he didn't take the belt from GGG, he ran and spoiled and that never warrants victory in he eyes of the judges.

What do you think about the fight ? How do you think it will play out and who will leave victorious ?!

Would love to watch a big American fight live can only dream of that unfortunately !
 
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